I don’t know much about the Bible but it strikes me as a pretty poor citation for anything.
It’s a great citation for what Jesus Christ was credited as saying in the Bible.
It is difficult to explain Hell when one can not accept the concept that we do not deserve Heaven, nor can we by anything of our own doing. Because we ourselves are corrupt and sinful, we do not deserve to behold God’s glory or to be in His presence whatsoever. That is, separation from God is a default. But because Christ personally intercedes for us, we are forgiven. But we also need to accept that forgiveness.
I should say that I at one point was an extremely devout Christian type. and I know the whole spiel by heart because I had memorized it when I was in that mindset. There are even posts of mine where I’m making similar arguments as yours, potentially in this very thread.
I should also say that I don’t want heaven, and I don’t think that the heaven of the Bible is something that most people can say that they honestly want. I think of the prospect of an eternity with God while everyone else is burning away as completely exhausting and undesirable. Yes, heaven is undesirable. I’d rather cease to exist. I also would probably rather be in hell with all the rockin’ bands and my actual father and mother and brothers and sisters (because that’s where God will condemn them since I don’t believe that they would be “saved”) than up in heaven. It’d be hot and miserable down in hell, but God strikes me as rather unpleasant and conceited. I don’t think I’d enjoy his company. I also don’t care much about his forgiveness. I care more about the forgiveness of the people that I’ve actually wronged in my life than the forgiveness of a supposedly all-knowing deity.
In other words, we of ourselves decide to take our inheritance and go our own way, and it is up to each of us to decide to go back home to our father. Surely, once he sees us on the road back from far away, he will run to us and embrace us and throw a party. But we are also free to be able to make the decision to be apostate. It’s our choice.
Not really. Not if you were born into a society with no exposure to the strand of Christianity that would redeem you in God’s eyes.
those are his exact words.
I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different
OK.
I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.
I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal.
Again, citation needed.
My citation is the goddamned bible. Jesus Christ talked about Hell more than anyone. In fact, it’s one of the main focuses of the gospels.
Matthew 13:49-50 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Mark 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Also, here’s a verse for those that say Christ didn’t damn the religions that don’t revolve around him:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.
I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.
it is a parable presented in a series of 5 parables : a deliberately short and fictional story that Jesus uses to illustrate a teaching.
Taking it in the first degree as a fact is deliberately ignoring the will of a symbolic story that Jesus clearly shows here.
I’m not taking it in the first degree of fact. If I said that Jesus was telling a story about the factual dialogue between two men in the afterlife I’d be taking it in the first degree of fact. I’m taking the obvious point that he made in his symbolic story, which was that the damned suffer in the afterlife while the saved do not.
Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.
As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.
Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.
He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.
I think Jesus changed all that. As I understand it most Jews don’t believe in eternal suffering. I don’t know how Jews square their modern beliefs with the Old Testament.
The Old Testament makes no mention of Heaven or Hell in terms of everlasting paradise and everlasting damnation.
Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.
I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.
Except for the part where the rich man was in such pain that he begged for merely him to dip his finger in some water and have it touched to his tongue because he was so desperate for any kind of relief from the pain.
Right. I don’t see how that’s an exception.
those are his exact words.
I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different
OK.
I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.
I agree with you : the Bible contains maybe the most beautiful texts of antiquity, whatever we believe in it or not.
Showing respect to these texts is also not pretending that Jesus “exactly” said something that he didn’t.
I’m not pretending anything. I’ve read the Bible many times in different English translations. I’m not making shit up here. I stand by what I’ve said that the only legitimate way to interpret the Bible’s description of hell is as a place of eternal torment. Perhaps the original Greek is a bit different. I don’t speak Greek, so I don’t know, but Jesus did “exactly” say that hell was a place of torture, fire, sorrow, and it’s at the very least heavily implied to be eternal. Perhaps I shouldn’t have said “exact,” but it’s pretty close.
Even if you don’t believe that it is literally fire, the point is obvious that Jesus Christ meant that hell is a place of unimaginable torture.
As for chyron’s point about “our perceptions” coloring things, I think it’s fair to judge God by the standards that the Bible claims he judges us. We’re supposed to love our enemies, God tortures his enemies for eternity. I’d imagine that if I personally kidnapped a nonbeliever and tortured them myself because they weren’t Christian, I’d be rightfully labelled an evil maniac. But that’s what Jesus Christ proudly proclaimed he does. Saying that a character that does such a thing is loathsome is not unfair at all.
Isn’t it a basic tenet that only God can judge? I see CatBus’a last paragraph as a plausible scenario. It’s an idea I entertain.
He doesn’t live up to his own standards based on his behavior in the Bible.
I forgot about fan edits. I wasn’t considering those. I think I can forgive those.
Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever.
I agree about Revelation, the Bible, the Old Testament and the Acts of the Apostles.
But not the Gospels. AFAIK, Jesus himself never said that Gehenna is a place of Eternal Torment for unsaved people.
Lazarus and the rich man is a story of the eternality of hell.
those are his exact words.
I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different
OK.
I guess exact words was inappropriate phrasing on my part, but Jesus Christ does throw around words like that all the time. I’m sure those exact phrases are in certain popular translations, I’d bet my life on it. He obviously condemns people to eternal torment in the afterlife. The reason I’m such a huge fan of the Bible’s words on hell and judgement is because I think it exposes how dark and grim the mythology really is. It makes for a much better narrative within the Bible itself (and I really enjoy the stories and mythology of the Bible), but it makes for a more difficult-to-believe-in religion in the modern age.
If that’s the sort of people they elect, better they don’t have national representation.
If Donald J. Trump is the sort of people Americans elect, better if they didn’t have international representation.
Hey, keep in mind that he lost our popular vote by about 3 million. Americans didn’t choose this man. Presumably the dumbass pile of crap in question was elected popularly.
The Holiday Special, with the exception of a total of maybe 40 seconds, isn’t funny or interesting.
Not on purpose, no. But I enjoy boggling over what they were going for and how it turned out to be what it is.
That’s far more than I get outta watching the PT.
(Note, I only watched the HS once, over 10 years ago and will likely never do it again.)
(JEDIT- same goes for the PT.)
It can be boggled over without being watched. I’m very opposed to anyone watching the HS ever. And the PT. And the Clone Wars movie. And the Clone Wars cartoon, for that matter. And the Ewok films. And the ST, now that you mention it. And the standalone films. How about this: if it isn’t the original version of one of the original three live-action Star Wars films, don’t watch it. That’s my platform on the Star Wars franchise.
Updated ranking:
- A New Hope (1977)
- The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
- Return of the Jedi (1983)
- Revenge of the Sith (2005)
- The Phantom Menace (1999)
- The Last Jedi (2017)
- Attack of the Clones (2002)
- The Force Awakens (2015)
- Rogue One (2016)
I should probably put 5 and 6 as equals… or switch them… not sure… the fact is: I kinda like TLJ. Johnson failed many things but his entry has a soul and a heart that are worthy of the best (and the worst !) of Lucas era. And it looks GORGEOUS ! (seriously, it doesn’t look cheap like TFA, it’s beautifuly crafted and epic). And in a way TLJ is more a sequel to ROTS than a sequel to TFA.
edit: since I’m not a troll, I won’t put the Holiday special or the Ewok tvmovies in the list (let’s be serious: ranking them higher than the entire PT is pure trolling guys…)
How is that any more trollish than putting Rogue One or TFA below the PT?
Because they are arguably more unpleasant to watch.
Get Out (2017)
Loved it.
Oh my god, that’s racist.
I said “eternal fire” and “torment” are his descriptions of hell. Exact words are different depending on the translation, but I don’t see any reason to not believe that hell is eternal. Revelation says that the people who take the mark of the beast will be tortured forever in the presence of Jesus Christ (which paints a pretty demented picture of the Prince of Peace if you ask me). In the English language, which I guarantee is what Chyron reads, the Bible clearly and obviously depicts hell as a torturous place of eternal punishment where the wicked have no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth forever and ever. Jesus Christ’s parable of Lazarus and the rich man also depicts hell as a place of eternal torment. I think that the desire of some christians to turn hell into a mere separation from God, or some kind of eternal “time-out”, is really telling of how uncomfortable so many people are with worshiping a God who would do such things to what are essentially his children (given that the Bible says God makes everybody in his image).
I’m going to rip the tubes out of your TV.
Trayon White, Sr. is dumb as dirt.
EDIT: Maybe I should wait until I know all the facts before coming to that conclusion. Innocent until proven guilty, as we jurors say.
Gehenna is a foreign word that referenced a place near Jerusalem where trash was burned. It was supposedly constantly smoldering and was full of rot, vermin, and maggots. It is translated as hell in English. He does refer to the unsaved being punished with eternal fire and torment; those are his exact words.
But it is 15-20 minutes shorter than each PT movie, so it’s got that going for it.
But it feels like it is about 15-20 minutes longer than the entire prequel trilogy, so it’s going that going against it.
I’m presently not happy with the life path I’m on (career path, where I live, etc.). I’m young and in a position to make a change, but I also feel this will be my last chance to do so, so I’m afraid of doing something I’ll regret. But also afraid that I might regret inaction later too. I need to make a decision and I’m stressed out about it.
Why would it be your last chance to do so?
Similar to Handman’s news, I got an interview for a job at a museum today. Well, more of a historical society, but still. Here’s hoping I get to leave my dull-as-hell QC job and finally put that art history degree to work as a collections and event photographer at REDACTED.
This is happening in about three and a half hours. Wish me luck, OT.com!
Good luck mate.
Best of luck mate.
I don’t want to seem rude or anything, but you’re constantly making the proposition to mate with other members of this forum, and, well, I don’t mean to be a prude but it makes me very uncomfortable. Could you please discuss such matters in PMs instead?
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Team MFM.
The Holiday Special, with the exception of a total of maybe 40 seconds, isn’t funny or interesting.
I’m in the process of making a fan-edit of the two called Children of Fargo. It’ll be on Myspleen soon, PM me if you need an invite.