It’s this shot.
The 5 stars are clear in the 35mm, faint in the wowow and removed in the blu. A minor change, but a digital change nonetheless.
35mm
Wowow
Blu-ray
Here is, finally, some proof that the bar scene in Nepal did not have a red tint as it has on every recent home video release.
Yes, it’s gray!
My only argument for using the BD as a source rather than the WOWOW is that the BD restores several original shots that remain digitally altered in the WOWOW. Such as the sea-plane matte painting and the red “travelling line” sequence (I’m sure there are other examples but these are the only two that come to mind).
Conversely, the lamp that Indy and Marion are tied to in the opening of the ark sequence was digitally illuminated in the BD whereas it should be off. Not sure whether the WOWOW has the lamp on or off.
Perhaps just a few replacement shots from the BD would be best overall.
The WOWOW has the lamp off. I suppose a few replacement shots from the bluray could be used. Does anyone have a list of the shots that were altered for the WOWOW, but not for the bluray?
Another shot altered in the BD is also from the opening of the ark. The close-up of the top of the pillar of fire in the clouds has stars behind it, but in the Blu-ray the stars are removed and it is just a dark sky background. This is a weird change, I wonder if the DNR or cleanup process identified the stars as specs of dirt and removed them?
The shot is correct in the Wowow.
I’m curious to see how that scene comes out overall in your regrade. There are several over exposed shots (which are much worse in the blu-ray).
Looks good! I was hoping you would take this up again. The wowow is not too far off color-wise, but it’s over saturated and over-brightened. A few shots are a bit overexposed, but nothing like the blu-ray. I think you should be able to match it up very closely.
The color changes, overexposure and DNR on the blu-ray make it pretty much impossible to use most scenes.
That’s very cool. However, while watching it by bits here and there, I noticed the framing was a bit weird. So I looked closer and saw that the bottom black bar is thicker than the top one and that the aspect ratio is about 2.33:1 instead of the expected 2.35.:1. Hopefully, the eventual v2.0 release will make this right as it should also help getting rid of the “glued frames”, I believe they’re called, which appear frequently at cuts. By the way, do you already have that second print you mentionned? How much money is required at the moment to get it scanned and stored?
There is a rendering issue which caused the lower letterbox bar to drop for a single frame in several places, revealing the top of the next frame. That will be corrected on the next release.
We don’t have a print in hand, but know of one which can be rented and scanned. I am not sure of the exact cost but will do some inquiring.
The color timing on this can’t be correct, it seems to indicate that the Nazi Party used red flags when it is historically known that their flags were actually bright orange.
lets see how much crow can be eaten over 4 forums
Will it be as much as the crap I had to put up with I wonder
I’m curious to see if any of the staunch blu-ray defenders finally concede that it is not accurate. I spent a lot of time arguing myself and a ton of research. If you take the wowow and reduce saturation, it mostly resembles the 35mm. That is not the case with the blu, the color is fundamentally altered.
The color timing on this can’t be correct, it seems to indicate that the Nazi Party used red flags when it is historically known that their flags were actually bright orange.
Lol 😉
That colour timing #Mikewasright
Yep 😉
Video
1080p from a 4K scan of a very rare 1982 scope Lowfade Positive Print
Audio
Original Dolby Stereo optical tracks - 2.0 PCM (will decode to 4 track Dolby Surround)
Output
MKV compatible within the spec for a 25GB BD
The intent of this release is to replicate the 35mm experience as closely as possible within the confines of HD video. There are scratches and print damage and several bits of dialogue are missing, primarily at the start of the Well of Souls sequence. The color has been carefully balanced to reflect how the film looked when projected. There is always room for improvement, so constructive comments good and bad are encouraged.
The hope is to raise funds to scan a second print to replace the damaged sections for a 2.0 release. Then alternate soundtracks such as LD, 16mm and blu-ray will be added and some cleanup will be done.
Hopefully this will end (or at least clarify) the debate about the blu-ray color grade: It is (sloppily) revisionist, over-saturated, over-brightened, heavily DNR’d and does not reflect how the film looked or sounded in cinemas.
Screenshots
A preservation of the original mix would definitely be good, absolutely!
I do have it from the optical track on a print. I really want the early/alternate mix which can only be found on some 16mm and Super 8mm prints. That has some major differences. This mix is used in film clips on the DVD special features and may have been used for a TBS broadcast, but I have never found a full copy of the broadcast to confirm.
captainsolo said:
What is atrocious is the complete reworking of the soundtrack from new elements and the abandoning of the original, despite the DVD multichannel mix being a bit restrained (made very obvious in the new 35mm which used this track unlike the IMAX version).
I may get some flack for saying this but I actually prefer the LD for picture despite the aliasing as it seems a bit more natural than the DVD and it is similar to the VHS I grew up with.
Audio…LD wins. No contest. Hands down. End of discussion. The score’s integration alone nails it along with directional panning and fine detail not present in the DVD 5.1 derived from the 70mm master.
I was under the impression that the Blu-ray sound mix was just the same as the DVD (70mm), with the rears redone for 7.1. Is it really significantly different from the dvd? (I’ve only seen the IMAX version, so I don’t know.) I really like how the DVD sounded.
Sorry if this response is late and if its been answered but yes theyre not the same mix. The DVD mix was similar to my old VHS edition. I prefer this mix personally. I dont know the complete list but I know the BD added some additional ‘richocet’ noises during the gun battles which I really dont like. These ‘new’ noises were also on the 1999 VHS (not the same VHS I mentioned before)
The Blu is definitely a remix. Ben Burtt went back to the original dialogue/music/sound effects tracks and added a few new things. There are a few slightly different sound effects and level changes. A new subwoofer channel was created, which messed up some of the effects IMO because they were pulled out of the main mix and only the lower tones are heard from the subwoofer. The biggest change is they created stereo surrounds, which is great, but also added a heavy echo in some parts, which is rather obnoxious, it sounds like the orchestra is in a cave. There is more fidelity in the music, but less dynamic range in some parts.
Supposedly the DVD is the 70mm mix converted to 5.1, but the surrounds are too loud and the dynamic range is a little squashed. If you turn the surrounds down a bit it sounds very good. The wowow uses this mix. The widescreen LD is a remix, but pretty faithful and has good dynamic range. The original dolby stereo mix from theatrical prints has excellent dynamic range, especially for an optical track. Not a lot of surround action, but still probably the best overall mix and certainly the most nostalgic because it’s what was heard in theaters. It would be great to have that mix directly from the original tapes.
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Is this the re-release trailer? If so then it is a valid color reference because it would have been created from a timed print. It would be a couple generations removed from the inter-negative, but still not far off from a release print. There could be a shift towards warmer or cooler, but the trailer itself would not be re-timed shot by shot.
The bigger issue is how the trailer was transferred to video and what could have been done digitally to alter the color, gamma, etc.
Something else to keep in mind is that films were not heavily changed during color timing in the pre-digital days. They didn't have the ability to tweak color like they do today. The goal was usually accurate fleshtones and colors and consistent brightness and gamma. The look of a film was created in camera using filters and lighting, not in post production.
Looks good. The walls of the bar are supposed to be gray, not orange/red. I do think you went a little too far in the shot of Toht, there should be a little more red because of the fire.
I think your regrades look good but it is a losing proposition with the blu-ray because you can't fix the gamma in some scenes. I'm curious to see a few shots from the opening of the ark, that is the most messed up sequence color and gamma wise.
hairy_hen said:
Having seen Raiders on 35mm back in 2007, I can confirm that the bar scene was very much not red-shifted on original prints. It looked pretty similar to the way it does in the trailer examples above. I remember very clearly taking specific note of this at the time, and being somewhat surprised by it since it was so strikingly different.
Even more surprising to me was that the IMAX release from a few years ago also had a non-red version of this scene. When I first saw the Bluray, I expected it to be the same since I'd been under the impression they were the same version, but the Bluray has the same red look to it that other home video releases do, so apparently it does not come from the same source. The IMAX version I saw looked really good, so I wonder why they didn't use it for the Bluray.
I seem to remember pointing this out about the bar scene a few years ago, but I don't think anybody really took notice since I didn't have photographic proof to back up my claim. So I'm glad to see that it has come up again now.
The IMAX version had the exact same color as the blu-ray. I was horrified as soon as I saw the opening shots of the jungle. Only difference was more resolution, which really showed how badly they had messed up the gamma. I prayed that the blu-ray would not have the same revisionist color but I was wrong. Screenshots don't demonstrate how badly the blu-ray version looks when projected on a large screen. The Wowow looks much better.
DrDre said:
Here are a few more iconic frames from the film adjusted by the model to match 16 mm colors:
Definitely an improvement, if a bit yellow for my taste. The problem is that the blu-ray cannot be completely adjusted because the color is not just altered but there seems to be an actual filter applied, which has obliterated some of the color and detail. Add to that overexposed shots which have blown out detail (the one of Toht melting above is a perfect example) and you can never fix the blu-ray. That blown out detail and color cannot be recovered and corrected. On top of that, shots which were overexposed then had highlights dialed down in an attempt to fix the overexposure, resulting in a dulled look which lacks vibrancy and detail. Hard to believe anyone ever approved that release. Even with your color correction, the shots above look dull and flat and that can't be fixed.
The Wowow is the only viable HD option available at the moment. And even that has some blown out shots, but to a much lesser degree and without tampering with the highlights.
PDB said:
Those color matches look great Dr Dre. I'd love to use your program sometime if you ever release it for public consumption. Color matching is a laborious process.
Concerning the whole discussion of what Raiders really looks like. One of our members here tracked down a rare 1982 LPP of Raiders. There were only 200 made for the '82 re-release. It was mastered from the same 35mm materials as the 1981 prints only unlike the '81 prints there is no fading. As usual the only thing stopping us is the approximately $600 to $750 it costs to scan it. So would anyone be interested?
Sorry I've been slow to get back to you via PM, but I am still interested.
litemakr said:
captainsolo said:
PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.
The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.
I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time.
I finally found my tapes. Here is a link to a .wav file with 2 different recordings of the staff drop from 1981 screenings of Raiders. They both sound the same to me. These are from the the theatrical dolby stereo mix, which I *thought* was used for the LD.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/vz81c2
However, when I listen to these tracks and compare to the DVD and LD, the LD is the one that sounds different, not the DVD. From what I can tell, the theatrical dolby mix, the DVD, the blu-ray, the foreign/alternate mix and the Wowow mix all have the same sound effect. But the LD is definitely different.
The LD also has a slight difference which I have only heard on the blu-ray mix. During the ark opening scene, when the generator starts to overheat there is a screeching mechanical sound before the lights explode. On most mixes the sound comes in cleanly, but on the LD and blu-ray mixes, it is combined with a wind sound.
I always assumed that the LD was the dolby mix but that doesn't seem to be the case since the LD doesn't match the theatrical Dolby mix or the 6 track mix (DVD and Wowow).
There are some blown out highlights in Lapti Nek, are those in your scan?
This looks fantastic, great, great work, thanks so much. The changes to ROTJ are the most irritating to me so I am really glad to see this is happening and with such attention to detail.
TServo2049 said:
Does it also have Jock with an American accent? The actor was American, but the standard mix has him with an almost British-sounding accent (like with Aunt Beru, it was probably ADR by the actual actor but doing a different accent)
Unfortunately that scene is not in the super 8 version. But I know what you are talking about.
captainsolo said:
Also if you could, can you check the under the truck sequence to see if any feature the "think I'm dumb?" line when Indy inserts the whip handle? That very rarely pops up, and is also on the same DVD interview clips.
I agree litemakr that the WOWOW appears to be the basis for the re-timed and remixed "restored version". To be honest I've been afraid to fully dig into the new Ben Burtt mix.
The line from the truck sequence is from the alternate mix used for Super 8mm and 16mm prints. My Super 8 version has it. I'll double check the tapes to be sure but I'm pretty certain it's not there.
The alternate mix is also the base music and effects tracks for most of the foreign mixes. The French mix on the DVD and several on the Blu use it. There are a lot of differences in sound effects and music editing. For some reason they used the monophonic version of this mix on all of the DVD special features. I'd love to have a full copy of the english version.
captainsolo said:
PDB does your analog track match the DVD or the WS LD on the staff drop? I've long been curious about that. Of course I just now went back and re-compared the two. The DVD has one sound of the stick hitting, and the LD has it roll around slightly.
The rest sounds the same but the WS LD mix has a potency that isn't in the 5.1. I don't know how to explain it exactly but it packs a lot more punch overall. Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.
I'll dig out my recordings of the 1981 release and check the staff drop when I have some time.
