litemakr

Thanks for posting all of those screenshots PDB. The thing I love about this forum is everyone is truly passionate about film. I agree with you that Raiders should be a bit more yellow and that the jungle scenes were a bit less green. I think they went overboard with orange on the blu-ray to the point that I don't enjoy watching it. It's over saturated and too much teal.  And I don't like the washed out appearance of some of it.

I received my Super 8 version of Raiders today. It's about 15 minutes long and does a pretty decent job of condensing the movie and featuring some of the big moments. It slighly faded but color is pretty good overall. Some daylight scenes are a bit overexposed.

It seems to match up to the wowow in places and blu-ray in others. I never quite see the orange haze but there is more yellow. One thing that struck me is how much darker the ark opening scene is. The ghosts are bright and look more glowing while the background is much darker.  I will work on getting some screenshots posted. 

Those 35mm shots don't exactly match either version, but the overall gamma and balance looks more like the wowow to me. Here is an ebay auction for a clip from what appears to be a more balanced print:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-film-strip-very-Rare-rad14-/271694361142?pt=UK_DVD_Film_TV_Film_Memorabilia_LE&hash=item3f423ef236

Definitely a better match for wowow, especially in the lighter areas.

I don't know if a 35mm press slide is relevant, but this matches wowow color exactly:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-Harrison-Ford-Press-Color-Slide-Photo-35mm-/251744719056?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9d2790d0

The 2 versions aren't really that different in color in daytime scenes (unlike the DVD). The blu-ray has an added brown/orange haze that affects lighter areas, dulling whites and reducing contrast. Saturation is a bit too high.  Add to that blown out skies and other bright areas and you get an unpleasant image in many places. Darker scenes look worse, flesh tones are much more orange. Indy and Marion look like oompa loompas in the scene on the boat and during the ark opening. Reducing saturation and adjusting brightness and contrast makes the blu ray look better, but you can't fix shots which are blown out because the detail is just gone.

In the screenshot of Indy with the shovel you can see a slight blue tint to the sky on that lightens as you go left (it's backwards). The blu ray is all white, the wowow has subtle the blu transition.

I wish there were some caps to compare the ark opening sequence, that looks the worst on the blu. 

Those 16mm caps are very interesting, thanks for posting. I have been trying to get my hands on a good 16mm copy for years. They still look more like the Wowow to me with fading and a bit of and red shift. How did you capture those? Can you post a couple of caps from the ark opening scene? Particularly one of the ghost shots, close ups of Indy and Marion or the fire sweeping the altar? That sequence looks the worst IMO, mainly because of blown out highlights. We can debate the color all day long and never agree, but blown out areas are definitely not correct, that's a mistake. Interesting that TOD seems to have the opposite problem on BD: red instead of orange. 

When you say the wowow probably is accurate to the negative, what do you mean? Because if it looked like the camera negative the color and brightness would be all over the place. If it looks like the internegative then it would be accurate to a perfect release print because the internegative has all of timing set based on answer prints. So I don't really understand your comment.

I almost bought a 35mm print of Raiders recently but it was too far shifted to red to be useful. I do have a Super 8 condensed version on the way, I am very curious to see how it looks. I saw it on super 8 many years ago but don't recall it looking any different. 

hairy_hen said:

Yet again, I must bring up the fact that the low fade 35mm print of Raiders that turned up on eBay a while ago clearly showed a color timing that was very similar to the Bluray.

This film has always been gold-tinted.  Always.  The Bluray transfer is an attempt to recreate the original color timing, though since it was done digitally and not photochemically, it may not have always turned out exactly the same.  But it's in the ballpark, and its intentions were in the right place.

What you see on these other transfers is more akin to what was shot on the negative, before the initial color timing for interpositive would have taken place.  It also does not take into account that projection bulbs from that era were much warmer in tone than they are today.  The wowow transfer may be an accurate representation of what was actually photographed, but it does not represent how the film would have looked in theatres when it first came out.

This whole controversy reminds me of the time before Technicolor print references became available for Star Wars, and we didn't know what that film actually looked like originally.  Everybody thought the grey appearance of the Death Star on earlier home video releases was how it should have been, only to be disproved when it turned out the Death Star was actually quite blue in a lot of shots all along.  If the pictures from the eBay auction were to be posted here, the Bluray's undeniable resemblance to the film print could be seen by everyone.  I really wish now that I had saved them . . .

Sorry, but I strongly disagree.  I have yet to see a single screenshot, still photo or any 8mm, 16mm or 35mm screening I have ever attended which matched the orange/teal haze and messed up gamma on the blu ray. There is a slight red push, maybe a touch of yellow in the projected film, but not orange/teal or gold. I don't think you could actually get the blu ray color photo-chemically on film if you tried. And the orangish haze which permeates the blu ray to the point of actually obscuring detail in places has also never been there. Perhaps they started with an intention, but it was botched.  I agree that it is supposed to be warmer than the DVD, but not orangish warm. To my eyes the wowow, which is quite a bit warmer,  hits it right on.

Every single home video release since the first VHS has been supervised and proclaimed by Spielberg as matching his intentions. Why would it only now be suddenly so different? And people seem to forget that up until recently home video transfers were created from low contrast prints which had the theatrical timing, not from the camera negative. There was only a limited amount of color tweaking that could be done. That's why all of the releases of Raiders are pretty consistent up to the blu. It's only recently that studios have been going to the camera negative (instead of the internegative which has the timing) and digitally color timing from scratch. That pretty much coincides with the glut of revisionist color in the last 5-10 years.

And leaving color out altogether, the gamma is wrong on the blu. Highlights such as skies, mist, ghosts and fire are blown out to the point of having less detail than the VHS. That is definitely not how it looks when projected on film.

Why does the trailer touting the restoration of Raiders not show the blu ray colors?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba2eMxx0oHs

All of the shots from Raiders are not the blu ray colors/gamma. Skies are blue, greens are green and flesh tones are warm and a bit red, but not orange. No haze. Those are the correct colors. The clips from the bonus features DO show the blu ray colors interestingly, because they applied the same filters to the On Set feature. And they look flat in comparison.

I've seen Raiders a LOT on film, in 8,16, 35 and 70mm since 1981. And it never looked radically different (aside from some slight red shift) until I saw the IMAX version. From the opening scene I could tell something was wrong.

I'm not an expert on Star Wars, so can't comment on that. That probably has more to do with it being seen on lower resolution, outdated transfers for years until it we saw it in the ultra cleaned up DVDs and blu rays.

msycamore said:

EDIT: Still, I guess a recycling of the same scan is a possibility despite the restored matte shot. Perhaps all the negativity surrounding the butchering of the Star Wars trilogy around the same time called for it. But then again, why restore that matte shot and keep the other tweaks? (A question that remains no matter how you look at it.)

The fact there are any tweaks at all (not to mention sloppy, revisionist color timing and remixed sound) pretty much negates all of the hoopla Paramount and Spielberg fed the media about this being a meticulous restoration to the original theatrical version.

msycamore said:

litemakr said:

Based on some googling it sounds like Laser Pacific did a Raiders restoration under Spielberg's supervision, which I assume is the Wowow version. Then Laser Pacific was bought by Technicolor, who then re-colored what I assume is the same scan for the blu ray. That makes sense to me, I don't think the blu is a different scan. And Technicolor is listed on the blu ray. The question is why did they change the color after creating an already excellent restoration? The only thing I can think of is to "modernize" the look to match Crystal Skull and somehow appeal to a modern audience. It must have been done late in the game because the trailer released to promote the blu-ray set has a restoration demo featuring the Laser Pacific color, not what was actually released on blu. 

Check out what I posted earlier in the thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/633298/#TopicPost633298

As the link to the Pan American Clipper - matte shot isn't working any longer, here's a repost; http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=1520&disc2=1519&cap1=14343&cap2=14327&art=full&image=2&hd_multiID=760&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (see removal of matte lines and tweaked water reflections in the Lowry DVD transfer). The same subtle digital tweaks seen in the 2003 DVD transfer are present in the Laser Pacific (Wowow HDTV-Broadcast) transfer.

Personally I vastly prefer the HDTV-Broadcast as well but there's clearly issues with both of them.

EDIT: Still, I guess a recycling of the same scan is a possibility despite the restored matte shot. Perhaps all the negativity surrounding the butchering of the Star Wars trilogy around the same time called for it. But then again, why restore that matte shot and keep the other tweaks? (A question that remains no matter how you look at it.)

Very interesting. It's also a good example of how flat the bluray is, even compared to the DVD. Not much orange there but the water is very teal. The comparison shot of Indy on the sub really demonstrates how washed out the sky is on the blu-ray. The shot of the warehouse is also much too bright on the blu.

It could be that all previous video versions (even wowow) were made from a print or internegative, which would have the original color timing and would explain why they are all pretty consistent. And the blu-ray was the first scan directly from the camera negative, which would require all new color timing. 

Btw, I noticed a new digital tweak that was made just for the blu ray: the first long shot of Indy and Marion against the night sky during the ark opening scene has been changed. They are tied to a light pole and the light has always been turned off in that shot. It's a mistake because it is on in the other shots. In the blu-ray it has been digitally altered to be turned on. Weird that it would be changed while the clipper shot is reinstated as the original.

I'll try to post screenshots later.

Based on some googling it sounds like Laser Pacific did a Raiders restoration under Spielberg's supervision, which I assume is the Wowow version. Then Laser Pacific was bought by Technicolor, who then re-colored what I assume is the same scan for the blu ray. That makes sense to me, I don't think the blu is a different scan. And Technicolor is listed on the blu ray. The question is why did they change the color after creating an already excellent restoration? The only thing I can think of is to "modernize" the look to match Crystal Skull and somehow appeal to a modern audience. It must have been done late in the game because the trailer released to promote the blu-ray set has a restoration demo featuring the Laser Pacific color, not what was actually released on blu. 

Turisu said:

Well after all these ringing endorsements from people that clearly know this movie a lot better than I do, I've decided to crack and swap my BD for the wowow version.

I'm guessing rutracker is the place to go for this, but there are several versions on there and I haven't a clue which is the version being discussed.

Any and all help much appreciated. :)

Check your PMs

It's a bit over-sharpened and there are still a couple of gamma issues with slightly blown out highlights, primarily in the Ark opening sequence. But they are less severe than the blu ray and the color is MUCH better, and pretty accurate to the 35mm version IMO. It's sharper than the blu in most places. The sound is the original mix from what I can tell, but the surrounds are too loud. I had a big smile on my face watching it last night. I have been so unhappy with the blu ray that it was a joy to watch.  

It would be interesting to know who did this version and why it was only shown in Japan. The HD master shown on US TV was the Lowry remaster (and now is the blu ray version). I wonder if this was the original 4k restoration and then Paramount felt they had to mess with it for the blu ray release by re-timing and remixing. 

dvdmike said:

It is indeed, it's the only version I will watch 

Watched the whole thing tonight and I agree. I will never watch the bluray again.

dvdmike said:

Quick and dirty 

 Nice. Is that the Wowow version?

TServo2049 said:

litemakr, you have a recording of the mono mix? I'm surprused to hear of it being used in theaters, I thought all 35mm prints were Dolby by 1981.

Does it have the alternate Jock voice heard at 1:00 in this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmLDNk8MbLs

Waaaay back in the 90s, Treadwell (I think) mentioned hearing a different Jock voice on a 16mm print. When that DVD featurette came out, I assumed this voice is what he was talking about.

I know that 16mm prints of Empire had the rarer mono mix, so I'd believe a mono mix of Raiders being on 16mm prints of that...but on theatrical prints? That I've never heard...

You are probably right. The theater was a mono theater, but maybe is was just the regular dolby mix played in mono.  I always assumed it was a separate but similar mix, but I don't know of any differences offhand aside from surround effects. I will dig out the tapes and check Jock's voice, but I don't think it is different.

I do know that there is a completely different mix for Raiders which was used for some 16mm prints and is the base for most non-english mixes. There are many differences in sound effects and music editing. The music during the ark opening is edited very differently once the ghosts emerge from the ark. You can hear this mix on the French and Portuguese audio tracks on the blu ray, it's rather fascinating. I am guessing it was an early mix because it isn't as polished. Unfortunately I don't have an english version of that mix, so I can't say if Jock's voice is different. I have only heard it in english once, on a 16mm screening. The other 16mm print I have seen had the theatrical mix (in mono).

Curiously the featurettes for Raiders on music, sound and visual effects use this mix and in mono. I thought it was really odd that they used an alternate mono mix to demo sound effects and music. Especially when that mix does have stereo stems (used on the foreign mixes) Perhaps the theatrical stems were not available?

I just watched the clip you posted and that sounds like the alternate mix in mono. I guess they used it for all of the special features where they needed separate stems. 

There might be in the actual scan, but is obscured by DNR and the orange haze. Looking at the screenshot comparison of Belloq someone posted it looks like he has an extra layer of makeup on in the blu-ray cap. 

I was able to download the wowow version (thanks stretch009!) and sample several scenes. It looks very accurate to me. I have seen the movie many, many times over the years on 35mm, 16mm and Super 8mm and that is pretty close to what it should look like. It's warmer than the Lowry DVD and HD version, but not garishly orange like the blu ray. The gamma is correct, I didn't notice any crushed blacks or blown out bright areas like on the blu. It's a bit over sharpened, but still very nice for an HD broadcast. The soundtrack is neither the DVD nor the Blu ray version, I think it is original but can't say for sure. The surrounds seem a bit loud. I have audio tapes I personally recorded as a kid during Raiders' first run, one of the mono mix and one of the dolby stereo mix.  I could dig those out and compare sections.  I just bought a Super 8 selected scenes version off of eBay and I should have it this weekend. I'm curious to see how that compares. One of these days I will have a 16mm print. 

Does anyone know the source of this broadcast? It seems odd that this version was done and then another scan was done and re-timed for the blu ray. Maybe the same scan was used for both?

dvdmike said:

First shot 

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/102492

Second

http://s10.postimg.org/nvs66he55/1_Indiana_Jones_and_the_Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark.png

 Thanks, those both look great. I need to find the wowow version. 

dvdmike said:

I can cap it later on today 

Thanks! Can you get the shot of Indy and Marion when he says "Don't look Marion, keep you eyes shut!" right after the ghost turns to the angel of death? They look flat out orange on the blu ray. Also the shots of Toht before and after the ghost changes are too bright and the shots of fire sweeping across the altar are over exposed. The fire shooting up frm the island is orange instead of a lighter fire color. Most of the ghost shots are too bright and lose detail. 

djchaseb said:

Watched the Blu again this morning and I really do love the colors, especially in the Cairo scenes.

Much too orange. And the bigger problem with the blu is the gamma. The skies are reduced to a hazy white and clouds are blown out.  It looks even worse during the sub scene when Indy climbs aboard. The Ark opening scene is the worst. Color changes from shot to shot and the ghosts, fire and mist are overexposed, losing detail present even in the VHS version. There is also a lot of DNR. Are there any screenshots from the HDTV broadcast for that scene?

Can anyone point me in the right direction to download the WOWOW version? I can't stand the color timing on the blu...

ratpack1961 said:

It looks like alot of people have the set in hand now.  But none of the deleted scenes have been uploaded to youtube, besides the officially released ones.

Can someone with the set please upload at least the wampa attack and Lukes's training from ESB?  Maybe to rapidshare or even youtube?  It would be much appreciated!

 I agree, if someone would be kind enough to share a few of the deleted scenes that would be awesome for us in the US that can't get the set until Friday.