litemakr

DrDre said:

Hey, that looks amazing! We’ve been having some discussion, because the Raiders scan I’ve been using has some color balancing issues (litemkr said a number of scenes were green shifted), leading to many shots having a magenta shift, caused by a slight over correction. I was thinking of putting the regrade on hold until we can figure out what the color balance should be (litemkr is looking for a 16mm reference print for projection). However, this scan is looking pretty sweet, and the print looks to be in excellent condition…😃

The first pic from the temple looks good, but its a bit off color wise in the second and third frames (not surprising since he said it wasn’t corrected and a lot depends on the settings for the capture), but seems in good shape. Certainly better than most prints I have seen.

I’d definitely like to know a lot more. What is the origin of this print? Is it from the original run? Is the entire print scanned and in what format/quality? It would be great to replace the damaged second reel and missing bits from our scan.

DrDre said:

Dek Rollins said:

TServo2049 said:

To be fair, the color seen here does not necessarily reflect the scan raw, it uses an LUT based on litemakr’s input on how the color should look going off of projecting his unfaded(?) Super 8(?) print.

Perhaps litemakr can weigh in?

The print is an unfaded 35mm LPP. I’m not sure where Super 8 came up. But yeah, you are correct in that litemakr adjusted the raw scan’s color to approximate the projected print, as he said that in the original post.

The print is an unfaded LPP, but the scan has to be corrected to match the print. Litmakr used his Super8 print to correct the scan, but it appears a slight color imbalance remains.

The main color problem with the scan was a slight green tint on some reels. I may have slightly over compensated in some places. At any rate, the goal was to get to the right look, not necessarily a perfectly balanced picture. That said, when I (hopefully) work on version 2.0, I will keep that in mind. I know there is room for improvement. I’m hoping to get a good 16mm print for reference as well at some point.

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:

I’m not aware of any LD release beyond the 1992 version, I would have definitely bought it. I did get the letterboxed VHS released around 2003 because it said on the back that the effects were “newly enhanced”. Of course it was the same transfer with no enhancements. I think their marketing people got confused because Raiders WAS supposed to be re-released theatrically in a Special Edition and I believe some preliminary work was done. The rumor was that the submarine scene would be finished and added. However, they cancelled it when special editions fell out of favor with fans after the 2002 E.T. special edition.

Personally I would have loved to see an updated edition of Raiders with added deleted scenes and updated effects, as long as the original was also available.

I suppose the 2008 HDTV master with the CGI cliff scene, contains the remnants of what was supposed to have been the Special Edition.

Can you elaborate about the submarine scene please? What would it have entailed?

I don’t have any details, I remember reading it somewhere but it was speculation. Seems like it would be a good scene to be finished with CG. The CG cliff scene makes sense as a remnant. And probably the re-comped matte paintings, snake reflections, etc. I always wondered if they finished other shots (like the ark opening effects) but just never released them due to perceived hostility towards special editions. This was after the admittedly stupid changes to E.T. (guns to walkie talkies). After the Raiders special edition was announced, the South Park episode Free Hat came out, which I think probably persuaded Spielberg not to go through with it.

Of course the irony to this is that every shot in the blu-ray is changed and the sound is remixed.

TServo2049 said:

JayArgonaut said:

@Lite: what’s your thoughts, if any, on the ROTLA 1999 LBX THX LD vs the 1992 release?

AFAIK, there was no 1999 THX LD, only VHS. There were supposed to be remastered LD releases with AC-3, but they were canceled. I assume those were supposed to come out concurrent with the VHS remasters, but LDDB does not list them as THX (though old alt.video.laserdisc posts seem to indicate they were going to be THX).

I’m not aware of any LD release beyond the 1992 version, I would have definitely bought it. I did get the letterboxed VHS released around 2003 because it said on the back that the effects were “newly enhanced”. Of course it was the same transfer with no enhancements. I think their marketing people got confused because Raiders WAS supposed to be re-released theatrically in a Special Edition and I believe some preliminary work was done. The rumor was that the submarine scene would be finished and added. However, they cancelled it when special editions fell out of favor with fans after the 2002 E.T. special edition.

Personally I would have loved to see an updated edition of Raiders with added deleted scenes and updated effects, as long as the original was also available.

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:
That was the only transfer of Raiders available until the 1992 WS LD. Does anyone have the first edition laserdisc? It might be worth preserving that version in the highest resolution available and LD would be better than the VHS. In fact a good preservation of the WS LD is a good idea. I have it, but not a good way to capture it.

I don’t remember Raiders ever being shown in WS on television until the 2003 DVD transfer. They used the pan and scan of the 1992 transfer.

Thanks. Curious that a film-maker of Spielberg’s clout was unable to get his work shown in WS on TV for so long whilst Allen succeeded years beforehand. Speaking of the Raiders '84 LD, there appears to have been two US releases, the CLV single disc and the double disc CAV. Would a preservation involve both for historical comparison?

The CAV should have slightly better picture quality, but I doubt there is a need to digitize both.

JayArgonaut said:

Wazzles said:

JayArgonaut said:

CED was superior to VHS (which was never that difficult) but inferior to LD.

http://www.cedmagic.com/home/cedfaq.html#onetwelve

Only in terms of quality, since the discs could only be used so many times before they were useless.

RCA gave the discs a life expectancy for optimum performance of 500 plays. Most VHS tapes would be in pretty poor shape by that stage. 😄

http://www.cedmagic.com/home/cedfaq.html#threetwelve

alexp120 said:

…and the majority of the films are presented in full screen/pan and scan.

Edit:
As a previous collectior of the CED format, I can testify that this edition of Raiders was in pan and scan.

As were 99% of home video releases across all formats during that era. The only films I remember watching at home in widescreen during the 80s were the TV broadcasts of Manhattan (because of Allen’s insistence) and 2001.

Out of curiosity, was Raiders ever shown in 2.35:1 by pay movie channels in the US during the 80s/90s?

Edit: interesting article from 1990 on Spielberg’s fight to get his films shown in their OAR on home video.

http://www.rogerebert.com/interviews/spielberg-turns-letterboxing-into-crusade-with-new-tape

That was the only transfer of Raiders available until the 1992 WS LD. Does anyone have the first edition laserdisc? It might be worth preserving that version in the highest resolution available and LD would be better than the VHS. In fact a good preservation of the WS LD is a good idea. I have it, but not a good way to capture it.

I don’t remember Raiders ever being shown in WS on television until the 2003 DVD transfer. They used the pan and scan of the 1992 transfer.

Handman said:

RayRogers said:

Of course I don’t own the Indiana Jones movies on DVD anymore. Just the Blu-rays as everyone should.

You’re not a true fan until you own every home video release of Indiana Jones ever put out. That includes CEDs.

That is the one version I never had. It’s the same transfer as the VHS. Did CED have better resolution than VHS? I know they were less than LD, but not sure how they compared to VHS.

CodySolo said:

So strangely enough, they have also added all the Indy movies to Amazon Prime this week, but unless my eyes are deceiving me, the transfer of Raiders on prime is sourced from the Blu-Ray. So Paramount is being inconsistent on which transfer they license out to which company.

It has been on prime for a while. It’s the blu-ray transfer.

alexp120 said:

If anyone is interested, this has surfaced on ebay…
INDIANA JONES AND TEMPLE OF DOOM 1984 COLOR/ SOUND 35MM SCOPE FEATURE VERY GOOD

Cool. I’m not aware of any big issues with the blu-ray of Doom, there aren’t any radical color or digital changes. But I’m not much of an expert on that film.

Wazzles said:

litemakr said:

Wazzles said:

litemakr said:

Wazzles said:

No, fewer digital changes than the blu-ray. You are probably thinking of the HD version of the Lowry DVD master, which had a CG re-do of the car going off the cliff. The wowow is a newer 4K remaster done for the 2011 30th anniversary and has much more accurate color than the blu-ray.

I thought it had some recomped elements and also erased the guiding rod for the boulder?

Yes, it has the same digital tweaks as the DVD but not the additional ones added to the blu-ray or the CGI shot from the HD Lowry version.

I thought the Blu Ray was closer to the theatrical. What was changed?

The entire film has a “modernized” orange/teal color scheme inconsistently applied, it is brightened to the point that shots are overexposed, the sound is remixed, it has heavy DNR and there are additional digital tweaks. The blu-ray is the least faithful of all official releases.

Wazzles said:

litemakr said:

Wazzles said:

No, fewer digital changes than the blu-ray. You are probably thinking of the HD version of the Lowry DVD master, which had a CG re-do of the car going off the cliff. The wowow is a newer 4K remaster done for the 2011 30th anniversary and has much more accurate color than the blu-ray.

I thought it had some recomped elements and also erased the guiding rod for the boulder?

Yes, it has the same digital tweaks as the DVD but not the additional ones added to the blu-ray or the CGI shot from the HD Lowry version.

JayArgonaut said:

@litemakr: over the years, which release(s) have been your preferred viewing?

I’ve owned and watched all of them. I probably watched the laserdisc and DVD the most and the blu-ray the least. The DVD has the best exposure of any release (nothing is blown out). I prefer the look of the 35mm transfer overall and plan to create a version 2.0, hopefully this year. I think the wowow is the best official transfer even though it has some problems. If you reduce brightness and saturation a bit, it looks really good. I’m curious to see how Dr. Dre’s project to match the wowow to the 35mm turns out, that may be the best overall option in the future.

Wazzles said:

No, fewer digital changes than the blu-ray. You are probably thinking of the HD version of the Lowry DVD master, which had a CG re-do of the car going off the cliff. The wowow is a newer 4K remaster done for the 2011 30th anniversary and has much more accurate color than the blu-ray.

I was at happy hour today and they were showing the Hulu (wowow) version with the sound down. A mostly 20 something crowd was watching intently and commenting how good it looked in HD and how much they loved the movie. Great to see people getting exposed to a good HD version instead of the blu-ray and still appreciating the movie even though they were way too young to remember it coming out.

babouin said:

litemakr said:

Hulu just added Raiders as a streaming movie on their site. It’s prominently featured on the home page. This is significant because they are showing the Wowow version, NOT the blu-ray. This is the first time I have ever seen or heard of the Wowow version being used for broadcast outside of Japan (it was shown in US movie theaters briefly for the 30th anniversary in 2011). Or anywhere since the blu-ray was released in 2012. Could this mean Paramount is shying away from using the blu-ray transfer? Have they head the outcry against the revisionist blu-ray?

Hard to say, they could have mistakenly sent this transfer. That seems unlikely because it was never used before and the blu-ray has transfer has always been used for broadcast, streaming, clips and live symphony concerts. It seems like it would have to be deliberate to pull this version from the archives. Whatever the case, I’m glad a wide audience will finally have a chance to see a more accurate HD version. And it gives a glimmer of hope that the eventual 4K release might not be the blu-ray version.

The downside is that they have cropped the ends to fit it into a 16x9 frame, and the sound is compressed. And the resolution is not as good as it should be. So we just can’t seem to win. But still better than the messed up orange/teal color and remixed sound IMO.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1019346

I saw the Wowow version on two different TV channels here in Canada in the last few weeks. And one of the two was also Pan and scan with the sides removed.

Interesting. I wonder if Paramount has changed the version they provide for broadcast/streaming to the wowow. Raiders was shown over the holidays in the US on the SyFy channel, but I didn’t see it. I wonder if they used the wowow. Amazon is still streaming the blu-ray version.

JayArgonaut said:

Thanks for the heads up. As a matter of curiosity, is it possible for you to share a comparison of the regular framing and the cropping please? I’m in the UK and so can’t access Hulu, as I don’t have my proxy at the moment. Otherwise I’d have a go myself.

I’ll try to get a screengrab later, but it appears to just have the ends chopped off so there is no letterboxing. They do this for US TV broadcasts as well, but have always used the blu-ray transfer.

Hulu just added Raiders as a streaming movie on their site. It’s prominently featured on the home page. This is significant because they are showing the Wowow version, NOT the blu-ray. This is the first time I have ever seen or heard of the Wowow version being used for broadcast outside of Japan (it was shown in US movie theaters briefly for the 30th anniversary in 2011). Or anywhere since the blu-ray was released in 2012. Could this mean Paramount is shying away from using the blu-ray transfer? Have they heard the outcry against the revisionist blu-ray?

Hard to say, they could have mistakenly sent this transfer. That seems unlikely because it was never used before and the blu-ray transfer has always been used for broadcast, streaming, clips and live symphony concerts. It seems like it would have to be deliberate to pull this version from the archives. Whatever the case, I’m glad a wide audience will finally have a chance to see a more accurate HD version. And it gives a glimmer of hope that the eventual 4K release might not be the blu-ray version.

The downside is that they have cropped the ends to fit it into a 16x9 frame, and the sound is compressed. And the resolution is not as good as it should be. So we just can’t seem to win. But still better than the messed up orange/teal color and remixed sound IMO.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1019346

The vault footage is presented in a rather outdated SD transfer. None of it is in HD, even on the blu-ray. There are lots of digital artifacts. So that makes doing any color correction or restoration much more difficult because so much resolution and color information just isn’t there. I don’t know if they intentionally used substandard transfers to specifically prevent fans from restoring it into the episodes, or if they were just too cheap to make new HD transfers. I’m betting it’s the latter reason. Either way, it’s a huge shame because even faded 35mm footage would have looked much better with a modern HD transfer.

JayArgonaut said:

@litemakr: I cannot thank you enough for your efforts with presenting ROTLA as it was meant to be seen. You’ve given me a new found appreciation for the film. Are you accepting donations towards V2.0?

Thanks, Jay! We hope to scan a second print to fill in missing and damaged areas. I do plan to accept donations, but not sure how to collect them just yet. Stay tuned.

Supes81 said:

Wow this looks amazing, great work. So out of curiosity, I keep hearing the Xenon lamps were warmer back then in tone. Does anyone know how much of a difference it would have made? I can’t download this unfortunately as I am not a member of the site hosting, but would be interested in knowing anyway.

I get it would not look like the over done Blu Ray (as evidenced here) though I assume audiences would have seen a slightly more golden hue than is shown on this print when projected (not tech savvy so just asking)

This transfer does have a very slight bump in warmth and reduction in green, which would make up for the warmer bulb factor. However I have yet to find any compelling evidence that prints were timed with that in mind or that the bulb made a significant difference.

The blu-ray isn’t just warmer, it has actual color changes which are baked in regardless of color temperature. Reducing saturation and selecting a cooler color temp helps, but doesn’t fix the color issues. Add to that overexposed shots and it’s pretty much impossible to fully correct the blu-ray.

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:

FrankT said:

Now that’s a thought, what edits were made to the TV version, if any?

I don’t have the tape any more but the only thing I recall being edited was when Indy says “holy shit” when he sees the nazi sub. None of the violence was edited that I remember and the melting/exploding heads were not censored.

IMDB (yes, I know - not always a reliable source of info) claims that 24 seconds were edited from the ABC broadcast.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082971/alternateversions?ref_=tt_ql_trv_5

Someone has uploaded the first three minutes of the ABC premiere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hAuu0-5rDo

Here’s another clip from the ABC premiere, this time with Indy and Marion being trapped in the Well of Souls. Indy’s exclamation of “Jesus” when his whip is mistaken by Marion for a snake, has been truncated to “Jeez.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwrKdM-45nk

I imagine the goddamn’s uttered throughout the film would’ve been altered or removed. 😄

That’s fun to watch, wish I still had the tape. I didn’t have much motivation to keep it at the time since it didn’t have any extra scenes and my own VHS copy looked better. 24 seconds sounds excessive, I don’t recall footage actually being removed, just language toned down, but I’m curious if they actually did cut some things. Maybe some of the gunshot hits or skewered Satipo.

FrankT said:

litemakr said:

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:

DrDre said:

litemakr said:

DrDre said:

I’m really curious to know, which home video release first introduced the red cast in the bar? It really changes the atmosphere.

I recently bought the first laserdisc release from 1984. However, I don’t own a laserdisc player, so I should have it transfered to dvd. It’s pan and scan, but I guess it still has some historic significance.

That’s the first home video release. I have the VHS version, I’ll track it down and take a look. The next transfer was in 1991 for the widescreen LD and VHS, I’ll check that too.

The scenes in 1981 making of have the correct color.

Did you get a chance to take a look at those home video releases?

I did find my original Raiders VHS from 1983. Unfortunately the bar scene doesn’t play anymore, it is all static. Some parts do play, and wow it’s amazing how bad the quality is. But I remember getting it as a kid and watching it repeatedly and thinking it looked great.

Anyway, I couldn’t see enough to determine the color. I do have another later VHS copy of the same transfer (they used that transfer from 1983 to 1992). I’ll try to find that. I also have the 1992 LD somewhere (the second home video transfer), I’ll try to find it.

litemakr, just wondered - did you ever watch/record the 1986 ABC premiere of ROTLA and if so, how does the colour (and the pan & scanning) compare to the home video releases of the time?

I did see it and actually videotaped it at the time. ABC used the same master as the 1983 VHS and laserdisc version. That was the only version used for home video, cable or broadcast until the 1992 widescreen laserdisc, which was a new transfer. A pan and scan of that transfer was used for broadcast until the 2003 DVD.

Raiders video transfers:
1981 Making of special and Great Movie Stunts special (clips)
1983 VHS, Betamax and Laserdisc
1992 Laserdisc and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan)
2003 DVD and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan) HD version used for HD broadcasts
2011(?) 4K restoration (Japanese wowow broadcasts, 30th anniversary screenings)
2012 Blu-Ray

Now that’s a thought, what edits were made to the TV version, if any?

I don’t have the tape any more but the only thing I recall being edited was when Indy says “holy shit” when he sees the nazi sub. None of the violence was edited that I remember and the melting/exploding heads were not censored.

Any updates on this, Dre?

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:

I did see it and actually videotaped it at the time. ABC used the same master as the 1983 VHS and laserdisc version. That was the only version used for home video, cable or broadcast until the 1992 widescreen laserdisc, which was a new transfer. A pan and scan of that transfer was used for broadcast until the 2003 DVD.

Raiders video transfers:
1981 Making of special and Great Movie Stunts special (clips)
1983 VHS, Betamax and Laserdisc
1992 Laserdisc and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan)
2003 DVD and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan) HD version used for HD broadcasts
2011(?) 4K restoration (Japanese wowow broadcasts, 30th anniversary screenings)
2012 Blu-Ray

Thanks, I knew you’d have some interesting insights and information to share. 😃

Don’t forget the CED and VHD transfers:

The VHD back cover appears to contain an image from a deleted scene - the shot of Indy with Marion: perhaps taken from the discarded sequence where they kissed?

Those have the 1983 transfer. You can see bits of that deleted scene in the blu-ray on set documentary. They applied the orange filter to that footage unfortunately.

I also have a copy of the 1982 Oscars, which has a number of clips from Raiders. Poor quality, so not a great color reference. Still good enough to see it doesn’t match the blu-ray though lol.

JayArgonaut said:

litemakr said:

DrDre said:

litemakr said:

DrDre said:

I’m really curious to know, which home video release first introduced the red cast in the bar? It really changes the atmosphere.

I recently bought the first laserdisc release from 1984. However, I don’t own a laserdisc player, so I should have it transfered to dvd. It’s pan and scan, but I guess it still has some historic significance.

That’s the first home video release. I have the VHS version, I’ll track it down and take a look. The next transfer was in 1991 for the widescreen LD and VHS, I’ll check that too.

The scenes in 1981 making of have the correct color.

Did you get a chance to take a look at those home video releases?

I did find my original Raiders VHS from 1983. Unfortunately the bar scene doesn’t play anymore, it is all static. Some parts do play, and wow it’s amazing how bad the quality is. But I remember getting it as a kid and watching it repeatedly and thinking it looked great.

Anyway, I couldn’t see enough to determine the color. I do have another later VHS copy of the same transfer (they used that transfer from 1983 to 1992). I’ll try to find that. I also have the 1992 LD somewhere (the second home video transfer), I’ll try to find it.

litemakr, just wondered - did you ever watch/record the 1986 ABC premiere of ROTLA and if so, how does the colour (and the pan & scanning) compare to the home video releases of the time?

I did see it and actually videotaped it at the time. ABC used the same master as the 1983 VHS and laserdisc version. That was the only version used for home video, cable or broadcast until the 1992 widescreen laserdisc, which was a new transfer. A pan and scan of that transfer was used for broadcast until the 2003 DVD.

Raiders video transfers:
1981 Making of special and Great Movie Stunts special (clips)
1983 VHS, Betamax and Laserdisc
1992 Laserdisc and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan)
2003 DVD and VHS (widescreen and pan and scan) HD version used for HD broadcasts
2011(?) 4K restoration (Japanese wowow broadcasts, 30th anniversary screenings)
2012 Blu-Ray