liamnotneeson

This is genius

yotsuya said:

liamnotneeson said:

screams in the void said:

I found this to be an interesting perspective on the film …https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-important-thing-the-rise-of-skywalker-reinforc-1841069664

Read the article, and I gotta say that’s pretty dumb. I’ll explain how:

TLJ: Rey is nobody, just a random girl from a random planets, her parents were nobody and they don’t matter. Anyone can be a powerful Jedi.
TROS: Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine and she’s powerful because of her bloodline. In the end she chooses to take the name Skywalker because Luke and Leia Skywalker are who trained her.
Gizmodo: See? If TROS really wanted to reject TLJ they would have made Rey an actual Skywalker and have that be why she’s so powerful!

Making Rey the descendant of literally any character we know, regardless of who they are, is a rejection of TLJ. The only way to not recon TLJ is to accept that her parents are nobody and don’t matter, and to throw that mystery box away and not touch it for the rest of the trilogy.

I don’t see it that way. In fact, I see an interesting parallel to the OT. ANH: Luke, let’s kill off your only living family to make you go on this quest. TESB: Luke, well, actually, your father became Darth Vader. ROTJ: Luke, that girl you like and kissed, well, she is your sister. A lot of fans are still arguing about that one to this day. They thought the other should have been somone else, but the answer to why it is Leia is in the movie. What else would spark Luke’s rage? Vader senses his secret and threatens Leia and Luke loses it. The story required something personal enough for Luke to risk the dark side. The finale of the ST and saga required an epic villain and who better than Palpatine risen from the dead. And what better curve to throw Rey than to make her his granddaughter (I would have made her the great granddaughter). It questions every success she has had to this point and makes her doubt. It was a risky choice, but one I don’t feel negates TLJ’s message that anyone can be a Jedi. It solidified its own message with broom boy at the end. TROS has its own message, that we can overcome the faults of our ancestors. That we are not what our blood dictates. Our heroes are revealed to be a former stormtrooper, a former spice smuggler, and a Palpatine. Like Han in the OT, they overcame their past to be the heroes the galaxy needed.

1. I’m sure you’ll respond with some quip about how I’m not a really fan or part of the community or whatever but I’ve never heard debates about whether or not Leia should have been Luke’s sister.
2. No, there didn’t need to be an epic villain, and the Duel of the Fates script is evidence of that. Rian Johnson clearly was leading up for Kylo to be the antagonist in episode 9. Do something original and have the turning of the antagonist to the light be the conflict audiences care about, not just beating the same bad guy from the last 6 movies again.
3. Yes, TROS does tell a different message than TLJ, that’s my point. It shouldn’t in regards to Rey because telling a different story requires changing Rey’s backstory. It throws Rey around all over the place with clearly no plan and it greatly dimishes her growth. Yes character growth is possible with a mystery backstory but it’s much more difficult (and these movies don’t pull it off), especially when who she is in the eyes of the audience changes very much between movies. I think you give these movies too much credit

Rey in TFA: A powerful scrapper girl from a junk planet whose parents, whom we don’t know, abandoned her.
Rey in TLJ: A powerful scrapper girl from a junk planet whose parents, whom we don’t know and who don’t matter, abandoned her.
Rey in TROS: The granddaughter of Emperor Palpatine who was left on a junk planet to protect her from her grandfather.

Luke in SW: A farmboy.
Luke in TESB: A farmboy-turned rebel, whose Father is Darth Vader.
Luke in ROTJ: A farmboy-turned rebel-turned Jedi, whose Father is Darth Vader, and sister is Leia.

See how these changes to Luke’s character are only additions to his character and not complete changes in the nature of the character and where they are from, and the nature of their strengths and what not? Leia being Luke’s sister doesn’t change how we see Luke like how Rey being the granddaughter of the greatest Sith Lord changes how we see Rey.

screams in the void said:

I found this to be an interesting perspective on the film …https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-most-important-thing-the-rise-of-skywalker-reinforc-1841069664

Read the article, and I gotta say that’s pretty dumb. I’ll explain how:

TLJ: Rey is nobody, just a random girl from a random planets, her parents were nobody and they don’t matter. Anyone can be a powerful Jedi.
TROS: Rey is the granddaughter of Palpatine and she’s powerful because of her bloodline. In the end she chooses to take the name Skywalker because Luke and Leia Skywalker are who trained her.
Gizmodo: See? If TROS really wanted to reject TLJ they would have made Rey an actual Skywalker and have that be why she’s so powerful!

Making Rey the descendant of literally any character we know, regardless of who they are, is a rejection of TLJ. The only way to not recon TLJ is to accept that her parents are nobody and don’t matter, and to throw that mystery box away and not touch it for the rest of the trilogy.

The more I sit on it, the more I really hate Rey Palpatine. I really hate it- I wouldn’t even use hate to describe how I feel about what Johnson did to Luke in TLJ but I hate Rey Palpatine. The force dyad properly elaborated on would have been fully sufficient to explain Rey’s OP-ness, in my opinion. Rey being from nowhere was in retrospect completely in line with the Star Wars ethos and if episode XI had kept with it, and I think it would have allowed that fact to sit well with audiences.

Rey Palpatine never really sat right with me, even the first time I watched it. Once fan edits start coming out of TROS, whatever edit I chose will need to have Rey Palpatine scrapped, no exceptions, but that’s just my taste and my preference. Rey Palpatine will never be canon to me.

This is coming from someone who overall enjoyed the sequels, so don’t accuse me of being a Disney hater or whatever. I understand why JJ did it, and I strongly disagree

Hal 9000 said:

Can we get a much lower budget episodes 10 to 12 set 100 years in the future directed by Rian Johnson, with story ideas about the Force being front and center? The goal would be to explore the meat of the concepts we’ve been shown and about building the Jedi back up without there being a ‘holy crap bad guy uberthreat.’ Small scale, spiritual stakes on a personal level. Could be made soonish, with the ST characters all having died by that point, but could be referenced or perhaps shown in flashbacks. Luke and other Jedi could always pop in as ghosts, but this would have to be done soonish for much of that.

This is what VII-IX should have been minus being set 100 years in the future. Instead of having the bad guys be a threat to the galaxy, have them be a treat to the characters

Actually, coming to think of it, if you remove the whole Rebels vs Empire aspect of the sequel trilogy, it makes for a much better story… Of course there’s no way you could edit Stormtroopers out of the movies, but from a scriptwriting standpoint it would be so easy to have it just be Snoke and his guys vs. the protagonists who are part of some renamed Resistance (not an Army of the New Republic, since the Rebels “learned the lesson” of having a standing army)

RogueLeader said:

If anything they won’t do it now because of the hashtag drama rather than any real conspiracy by the making of the film.

But the reality more likely will be that if there isn’t any deleted scenes, it is because many of them were related to plot points that were changed in reshoots, just like Rogue One. So maybe a part of it is because they don’t want to give people a major insight on how the story changed during production, it’s not because they’re hiding a “secret cut” of the film.

That’s what I mean

Cthulhunicron said:

There were deleted scenes on the episode 7 & 8 blu rays. Why wouldn’t there be deleted scenes for this one?

Because of #ReleaseTheJJCut. Deleted scenes would be viewed as evidence of the existence of such a cut, and the release of them would allow for fan extended editions to be made, aka bootleg JJ Cuts

idir_hh said:

I think the wise thing for Disney to do would be to follow in DC’s by releasing an extended cut like BvS which by the way fixed the film for a lot of people.

This entire trilogy has been nothing but unwise decisions- I don’t expect them to wise up now.

Hal 9000 said:

A well-thought out take on things. I do hope they will be generous with the deleted scenes presented, as it sure sounds like there were a lot of them close to being ready to go.

My prediction: NO deleted scenes with the Blu-ray release, none. No possibility for a fan extended edit, no admission of a single deleted scene. The movie that we got in theaters was exactly was Disney and JJ always intended from the start.

Rodney-2187 said:

“If into the security recordings you go, only pain will you find.”

Never look behind the curtain.

I just stumbled across this on IFDB, it’s great to see that you actually finished this, I’m really interested to watch it. Also, I’m sorry for my previous behavior, I was being very immature

Holy space balls, that Crait battle is absolutely fantastic

Z6PO said:

Back to the topic: there’s so much aspects of the movie that I found disappointing, so I don’t know what the most is, but what I would have liked to see at the beginning of the movie is Rey building her own lightsaber (the one we see at the end of the movie), using parts (the Kyber crystal!) salvaged from Anakin’s lightsaber (which got torn apart in the previous movie). She has the ancient texts, she would have known how to build one, and it should have been part of her training. It would have been ultimately cool to see her fight with an orange blade. (Seeing her ignite her new lightsaber for no reason at the end of the movie is just fan service)

Possibly a deleted scene. With more “leaks” coming out, regardless of whether or not they’re true, I have great interest in seeing the deleted scenes for TROS.

Rey fighting Palpatine with her own lightsaber would be great. Honestly, I started to get annoyed with seeing Anakin’s lightsaber all over the place. But besides, do you think they would let any opportunity for low-bearing fan service to go untaken?

oojason said:

MalàStrana said:

Anyway guys. I’m fed up with you. You can erase my account. I’m done with this shitty saga. It died long ago. Enjoy your shitty movies and dumb blockbusters.

As you wish.

F for respects

[Dumb post, deleted for misreading post, move along]

yotsuya said:

liamnotneeson said:

yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

DrDre said:

Both JJ and RJ reverse engineered the OT to figure out where to go with their part(s) of the story either in an attempt to replicate the Star Wars formula, or to deliberately starkly deviate from it at key moments, but neither feels like a good, and natural way of developing a story to me. It feels very artificial, like the writer is constantly aware someone (the audience) is watching over their shoulders, and so the entire trilogy is shaped by what the writers’ believe are the audience’s expectations, and they either chose to cater to, or subvert those expectations.

There are only 2 films I can think of in the entire saga that didn’t do the above (Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back).

Writers are always aware the audience is watching/reading. Knowing that isn’t a bad thing. Catering to it CAN be a bad thing, depending on how indulgent the writers get. Pandering is absolutely a bad thing. But many good, natural ways of developing stories involve keeping the audience in mind. “Write for yourself first” is great advice for any storyteller, but that “First” implies that there ARE other concerns to keep in mind as well.

But creation (especially on a scale this big) isn’t all inspiration and desire. Sometimes you have to plink and plunk at it, and that can feel (or appear to be from the backseat) artificial in the moment. That’s where the craft comes in. Passion can’t get a project across the line alone. Often you have to “artificially” introduce things that didn’t just appear in a flash, hand-delivered from the muse.

But that’s also a huge part of why I feel like judging finished work mostly on suppositions of behind-the-scenes machinations and making-of anecdotes isn’t very useful. Most of the audience will never know HOW a thing got made, or what went into its making, or even think to wonder about that aspect, and it honestly shouldn’t really matter. What matters is if it works or if it doesn’t - and if it doesn’t, WHY it doesn’t should be pretty clearly explained without having to go “I bet the guy who wrote it just didn’t feel it like this other guy did.”

Granted, The Rise of Skywalker was very obviously fumbled in its execution and I imagine there are plenty of behind-the-scenes stories we’ll hear eventually as to why it’s such a mess. But acting like the very business of creating fiction is somehow “artificial” because they had knowledge of “the formula” and chose to tinker with the recipe for their own purposes seems like a weird read considering how often that exact bit of business is NECESSARY as a creator to come up with solid work.

Just because we notice the artifice involved in creating and maintaining good fiction doesn’t mean that by the mere fact of our noticing it that it’s now BAD. That’s unfair not only to the writer, but to us as well, because it assumes that we shouldn’t be smart enough to spot seams if we’re looking for them. Of course we are. Most audience members are, honestly. The magic of a good story is that it distracts us from looking, or it engenders enough goodwill that even if we do spot the seams - we don’t care. In some cases, even the seams look good to us.

Basically, what I’m saying is: The Rise of Skywalker doesn’t work because the elements IN the story aren’t well-thought-out, and aren’t executed very well on top of that. If I’m not willing to indulge an imaginative exercise as to how a fabulous movie I watched this weekend was written and executed - like, for example, I didn’t finish watching Little Women the other day and conjure up a possible story as to how Greta Gerwig adapted the book to explain why it worked the way it did - I don’t know that it makes sense for me to do that when JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio drop the ball.

I do think it’s safe to assume they didn’t MEAN to drop the ball.

Well, not all of us think they dropped the ball.

No offense, but I don’t understand how one can think that they didn’t drop the ball. To me, after seeing the movies and the lack of consistent character development, and hearing about all of the drama behind the scenes, I don’t get how one could hear and see all this and think that Disney did a great job.

I am one of the apparently large number of people who really enjoyed the film. I have yet to find any major problems with it. I liked what the characters did, and where the movie went and I loved the ending. I thought that part was perfect.

When I say they dropped the ball, I’m referring to the ST as a whole. I liked TROS a lot.

yotsuya said:

And frankly, I don’t really care what drama happens behind the scenes on a movie. Often the most drama filled productions turn out to be the best films. So many greats in cinema history have had troubled productions that it seems to be a requirement for a truly great film. And to be clear, Disney cares about the end product and I have yet to hear of any interference with either Marvel or Lucasfilm. All the good and bad things about this film have the stamp of Abrams all over them

Disney’s interference in the actual moviemaking was probably minimal, that’s correct. I’m referring to Lucasfilm obviously not having a plan, firing directors all over the place, not consulting George Lucas at all (not a huge problem tbf), and choosing to “play it safe” with every movie except for TLJ, in which of course they let Johnson do whatever he wanted.

yotsuya said:

And I found the character development in the three films to be very consistent.

I do think you’re wrong on this, but I’ve already responded to you on this before. I just don’t know how after comparing TFA and TROS to TLJ, especially with Finn, you can find any meaningful character development in TLJ, and even more so between characters. Our 3 main protagonists for the ST- Rey, Finn, and Po- aren’t in the same place for most of the movie. How are we supposed to really care about these characters when we don’t see them growing to care for each other?

yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

DrDre said:

Both JJ and RJ reverse engineered the OT to figure out where to go with their part(s) of the story either in an attempt to replicate the Star Wars formula, or to deliberately starkly deviate from it at key moments, but neither feels like a good, and natural way of developing a story to me. It feels very artificial, like the writer is constantly aware someone (the audience) is watching over their shoulders, and so the entire trilogy is shaped by what the writers’ believe are the audience’s expectations, and they either chose to cater to, or subvert those expectations.

There are only 2 films I can think of in the entire saga that didn’t do the above (Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back).

Writers are always aware the audience is watching/reading. Knowing that isn’t a bad thing. Catering to it CAN be a bad thing, depending on how indulgent the writers get. Pandering is absolutely a bad thing. But many good, natural ways of developing stories involve keeping the audience in mind. “Write for yourself first” is great advice for any storyteller, but that “First” implies that there ARE other concerns to keep in mind as well.

But creation (especially on a scale this big) isn’t all inspiration and desire. Sometimes you have to plink and plunk at it, and that can feel (or appear to be from the backseat) artificial in the moment. That’s where the craft comes in. Passion can’t get a project across the line alone. Often you have to “artificially” introduce things that didn’t just appear in a flash, hand-delivered from the muse.

But that’s also a huge part of why I feel like judging finished work mostly on suppositions of behind-the-scenes machinations and making-of anecdotes isn’t very useful. Most of the audience will never know HOW a thing got made, or what went into its making, or even think to wonder about that aspect, and it honestly shouldn’t really matter. What matters is if it works or if it doesn’t - and if it doesn’t, WHY it doesn’t should be pretty clearly explained without having to go “I bet the guy who wrote it just didn’t feel it like this other guy did.”

Granted, The Rise of Skywalker was very obviously fumbled in its execution and I imagine there are plenty of behind-the-scenes stories we’ll hear eventually as to why it’s such a mess. But acting like the very business of creating fiction is somehow “artificial” because they had knowledge of “the formula” and chose to tinker with the recipe for their own purposes seems like a weird read considering how often that exact bit of business is NECESSARY as a creator to come up with solid work.

Just because we notice the artifice involved in creating and maintaining good fiction doesn’t mean that by the mere fact of our noticing it that it’s now BAD. That’s unfair not only to the writer, but to us as well, because it assumes that we shouldn’t be smart enough to spot seams if we’re looking for them. Of course we are. Most audience members are, honestly. The magic of a good story is that it distracts us from looking, or it engenders enough goodwill that even if we do spot the seams - we don’t care. In some cases, even the seams look good to us.

Basically, what I’m saying is: The Rise of Skywalker doesn’t work because the elements IN the story aren’t well-thought-out, and aren’t executed very well on top of that. If I’m not willing to indulge an imaginative exercise as to how a fabulous movie I watched this weekend was written and executed - like, for example, I didn’t finish watching Little Women the other day and conjure up a possible story as to how Greta Gerwig adapted the book to explain why it worked the way it did - I don’t know that it makes sense for me to do that when JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio drop the ball.

I do think it’s safe to assume they didn’t MEAN to drop the ball.

Well, not all of us think they dropped the ball.

No offense, but I don’t understand how one can think that they didn’t drop the ball. To me, after seeing the movies and the lack of consistent character development, and hearing about all of the drama behind the scenes, I don’t get how one could hear and see all this and think that Disney did a great job.

Mocata said:

That sounds expensive, and admitting fault isn’t their style.

At least, in a way that changes anything

Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m sure I’ll be told that if I am, but I feel like a really good Star Wars movie shouldn’t need multiple viewings to be loved. I feel like it didn’t take multiple viewings in 1977 for people to enjoy the original Star Wars. The sequel trilogy movies on their own are better movies than any of the prequel movies in my opinion, but the special spark, that Star Wars magic, is gone from these movies. That timeless, simple magic these movies are devoid of.

Hal 9000 said:

Queue up incessant theories about Rey Skywalker. My prediction is that she will take up the name herself, though not a biological descendant. I like that idea; after all, don’t we all do that to some degree?

Prophetic

I would love this, but I won’t be holding my breath. Good things like this tend to not happen

Anchorhead said:

I’ve not made any secret of how disappointing she turned out, but I watch the intro to Rey portion of TFA somewhat regularly. For me, best 30 minutes of the ST.

The whole first act of TFA for me. Aside from the McaGuffin, the whole first act of TFA felt like a really original and intriguing story. It seems like after they meet up with Han and Chewy, that’s when things get really unoriginal

RogueLeader said:

The films seem to imply that balance isn’t permanent.

Luke in TLJ, “For many years there was balance… until, Ben.”
Anakin in TROS, “Rey, restore the balance, as I did.”

Master & Apprentice, a recent canon novel, actually laid out the prophecy itself.

“A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.”

The “through him” piece of the prophecy makes it a little open to interpretation in-universe as well. Could that mean Anakin’s descendants are also responsible for restoring balance? Also, how is ultimate balance different from just balance? And how does the dyad, that TROS introduces, relate to the prophecy, if at all?

I think an interesting theme to have explored would have been that once balance is achieved, it is something that has to be maintained. Anakin brought ultimate balance when he killed the Emperor and brought down the Empire through that act, but future generations would have to maintain that balance. I think this what the ST is trying to imply.

Maybe Anakin didn’t bring balance by killing the Emperor, but saving his son, the last Jedi. Like Lor San Tekka said, “Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.” The Jedi work to maintain balance, so by saving Luke, Anakin saved the Jedi. So the Emperor living or dying, the Sith existing, doesn’t contradict Anakin as the Chosen One or bringing balance. The prophecy, as canon states, never mentions destroying the Sith. “A prophecy misread”. And to me, the act of saving a life rather than killing one makes more sense to be the way that balance is restored.

This is just my own wishes, but I think it would’ve been interesting if they said that the dyad could’ve been a manifestation of that balance. And when Rey, one half of the dyad, died, imagine the spirit of Anakin appearing and bringing her back to life, finally having the power to save someone from death, and restoring the “balance”.

I like this a lot

Mocata said:

Morgan the Boost said:
Like jazz.

A bunch of musicians soloing at the same time?

Jazz: A Star Wars Story

Peter Pan said:

^This would have been an actual reason for the ST.

That would have made the Prequel Trilogy thematically pointless. Nothing that the TLJ did pissed off fans as much as telling them that Anakin isn’t the Chosen One would have.

Plus, doesn’t The Clone Wars straight say Anakin is the Chosen One?