Yes, you’re right. That part I wasn’t clear enough about. So are we to assume that Kylo Ren knows before getting to Exegol that he knows Palpatine is guarding the Final Order fleet?
I have always bumped into something that I want to bring up. The original crawl states that Kylo “rages in search of the phantom emperor, determined to destroy any threat to his power”. The film supports this by showing that when he arrives to Exegol the first thing he does is turn on his lightsaber before getting down the temple and also the first thing he says in retort to a seemingly benign statement by Palpatine is “I killed Snoke, I’ll kill you”. The movie makes it very clear that he’s going to Exegol to kill.
However, Ascendant’s crawl says that what he seeks on Exegol is a “hidden power that would allow him to destroy any threat to his rule”. This is not reflected in the behavior that he shows in the film. If his mission is really to get this power it would make little sense why he would be so confrontational and gung-ho on killing whatever is on Exegol. Sure, he has always been an erratic character but you would imagine he would be in a more exploratory attitude if he still presumably does not know how to retrieve the power he seeks. I think it runs the risk of muddling the character motivations. Is he there to retrieve a power or is he there to kill it?
Lol no arguments here. But like you said before, they probably wanted to make it seem like they had planned this all along. Dear JJ can’t even plan his vacation.
As dumb as it sounds, I think it is better for it to have a name you can refer to. Otherwise the different factions of the bad guys can get murky in a film that if anything requires clarity.
The way I see it, the Final Order is to the First Order what the Republic was to the Resistance.
I’m on the camp of not explaining it. I never bumped into that one in the movie theater as I felt that it was a power that made sense for Jedi to have originally and to have abandoned by the time of the PT as they got more dogmatic and became more and more detached.
I applaud the incredible rendition for the Force healing illustration. However, I do think that at a conceptual level, it is a tad coincidental that Rey was reading up about that particular power the very day she would need to use it twice (and presumably for the first time since it is suggested she doesn’t leave the base).
I think having her verbally tell BB-8 that she read up on it in the books is enough of an explanation if one would actually want to include one. I personally don’t think it’s super necessary to have any explanation (after all, nobody questioned Baby Yoda using it) but that’s beside the point, I guess.
Alluding to the concept of Force healing before it happens feels a tad premature imo vs having Rey look up the Wayfinder on the book because she saw it in her vision, which serves a plot function that strenghten the connective tissue of the whole first act and pays off in the third act.
I think Palpatine’s plan was clear enough in that the audience never expects him to be trustworthy about what his true intentions are.
I’ve been thinking, in order to give some useful plot function to Rey’s vision, how about showing glimpses of Kylo Ren using the Wayfinder and going through the Nebula? I think this would motivate Rey checking out the Wayfinder on the book (if that’s still something that’s being kept), which then feeds into her showing Leia. Also it makes it so that when Rey gets the Wayfinder from Kylo’s Tie whisperer, she has at least already seen it there before and it doesn’t feel as much like it’s coming out of nowhere.
I love that touch about Finn being an inspiration. However, she says “It wasn’t a decision, but like an instinct”. But her saying that Finn inspired them very clearly makes their mutiny a conscious decision, otherwise why mention it? I think it has the risk of becoming muddles between conscious decision and unconscious instinct.
I think you have to at least keep the line about the stormtroopers one by one deciding not to do it because that’s where the whole instinctual Force aspect comes into place.
Goddman, just when I think it can’t get any better. I think Palpatine’s lines are officially in the menu boys.
Not to derail the topic, because I think it’s a worthwhile discussion but I’ve been fostering this idea in my mind about what could be done to alleviate the pacing of the first act. I’m sure people have brought this up before but what if the opening search for the Wayfinder in Mustafar is skipped over? No Star Wars movie has ever opened on a montage and even with the added establishing shots in Ascendant, it feels disorienting for me to jump around so many locations in such a short amount of time. What if the movie opens with Kylo Ren arriving on Exegol?
I’ve seen this done in the fan edit by reddit user StraightCutsNoChaser called The Third Cut and it was effective enough. The only thing is that the crawl would have to set up that new opening.
I’ve come up with this:
The spark of hope burns!
Following the heroic sacrifice
of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker,
the tyrannical FIRST ORDER
silences acts of insurrection
across an inspired galaxy.
As Rey, sole heir to the Jedi,
continues her training, General
Leia Organa dispatches secret
agents to gather intelligence
for the rising RESISTANCE.
Meanwhile, Supreme Leader
Kylo Ren follows clues left by
his former master to a hidden
location, sensing that it holds
a dark power that could be a
threat to his rule…
Later on, during Rey’s vision there could be added glimpses of Kylo Ren flying through the Nebula using the Wayfinder. This would explain why she’s suddenly studying the device in the Jedi texts whilst she waits for the Falcon to come back and it would also visually establish the Nebula and the Wayfinder in Kylo’s ship, which both things will pay off in the third act.
Now in retrospect, it can be inferred that the clue referred to in the crawl was the Wayfinder. You are able to cut out Mustafar and retain all the relevant plot material.
I think this way the movie doesn’t have to jump around as much and it doesn’t have to get the audience asking awkward questions about what the Wayfinder is, what is it doing on Mustafar, who is Kylo massacring and has the added bonus of motivating Rey looking up the Wayfinder on the Jedi texts.
I like the idea but I feel like it is important to reestablish her parents importance in her story considering the movie is about to talk a whole lot about that.
Jar Jar Bricks said:
I for one think the only hole that needs patching in TLJ is Holdo. There is a clearly ADR dialog spoken when she says “I’ve dealt with plenty of trigger happy flyboys like you.”
The idea would be to replace that with something like “But there could be a First Order informant on board.”
So the whole thing would go as follows: “Of course you do. I understand. But there could be a First Order informant on board. You’re impulsive, dangerous, and the last thing we need right now. So stick to your post, and follow your orders.”
Changing that line so extensively would probably clash with the rest of the scene, though.
“I just want to know what’s going on.”
“Of course you do. I understand. But what I want is a captain I can trust. You’re impulsive…dangerous…and the last thing we need right now.”
This keeps the suggestion that there may be those among the crew that are less than trustworty, while focusing the conversation on the real sticking point between these two characters. It’s important that we don’t make Holdo so transparent in her reasoning that we think Poe is the unreasonable one…there still needs to be a communication breakdown between them.
I think this is the perfect balance for that line. Well done.
Hal 9000 said:
Just released a V6 of this project which is intended as close-the-book final. It uses a new LUT from skenera for a much better color correction, and fixes a couple audio and subtitle issues.
I am still unable to upload to the google drive, but I will once I am able to again. Anyone who nabbed V3 of Ascendant, this can be found the same way.
Hey Hal, did this cut implement the recent idea to have Luke say he has foreseen his death in the island? I know in the Ascendant thread they have just cracked AI Luke so I’m curious if there was ever any chance for that given that it was such a neat idea.
“You went straight to the dark” followed by “Who are you?” I think would set up nicely the conflict.
Hal 9000 said:
Here’s an updated vision sequence.
I love it. I do think that I prefered it without the shot of the lightsaber splitting because it was not an action that was done out of dark intentions. If anything it was the consequence of not giving in to the darkness.
Also, I would recommend layering in Luke’s voice saying “Who are you?” to further reinforce the dark lineage storyline. Another interesting line you could play with is “Something inside has alway been there. But now its awake”.
I’m impressed by the technical aspects of all those clips. I do think though that from a story POV, having Leia tell Rey she is family at the beginning of the movie kind of lets Rey off the hook too early.
Everything she’s been looking for throughout the trilogy is for that sense of belonging. Having a character explicitly give her that satisfaction at the beginning of the story kind of takes away from that discovery she has throughout the film of who her family is. Her being part of the Skywalker family shouldn’t be locked into place until the very last scene as that is the culmination of her journey throughout the trilogy imo.
“Rose, I can feel it. This is my destiny.”
Speaks to his force sensitivity and how he’s feeling like the Force has been guiding his journey and makes it so this sacrifice is different from his TLJ one where he was sacrificing himself just because he didn’t want the First Order to win.
I think it works well enough as is without it. I would think that it’s worth it to revisit the idea of having Luke saying “Lesson three” or “Final lesson” during the Ach-To conversation seeing as it’s more plausable now.
Jar Jar Bricks said:
I’m of the opinion that Leia needs to have a very specific reason for abandoning her Jedi path in order for it to be satisfying. Plus, this way she is explicitly following in the footsteps of her mother, Padme.
If it is because she thought it was more helpful to be a politician, why is that? If she would’ve remained a Jedi she wouldn’t have had to look for Luke all throughout the trilogy to gain his help. They could’ve just been fine with her.
I always thought the theatrical version of that scene had a much more compelling reason with her sensing the death of her son at the end of her Jedi path. She felt pressured to make a decision base on her premonition vs her just choosing a different lifestyle.
Also, it kinda connects nicely to her body not disappearing until the death of her son and in effect making that the end of her Jedi path.
My two cents.
Jar Jar Bricks said:
Luke sounds absolutely AMAZING. Here is a way we can reintegrate Leia having known about Rey’s struggle with the dark side:
And here is a line to give Leia some closure with the Jedi that makes sense in canon:
I’m using default TROS for both of these examples just for ease of use. v4 is shaping up to be pretty epic though.
Good God that Luke line is completely seamless. I’m so glad the tech just keeps getting better and better.
Hell, I would even make the argument that the clone line makes the vat of Palpatines unnecessary given that Kylo spells out in a very literal way what his deal is. “Your a ghost… in a rotting clone” He is the spirit of Palpatine in a cloned body that’s failing him.
With that in mind, I think it would be more useful to have the vats of Snoke restored considering that the line “I made Snoke” is much more ambigious. You don’t know if he means that figuratively or literally until you see the vat of Snokes.
I know many won’t like this but I think that if we’re looking to be clear, it’s the best way to go. Just my two cents.
Happy to see the site back on! I skimmed through V3 and especially the first act with all the additions made the film flow much smoother. I’t insane how improved this movie has slowly managed to get with the efforts of this community. Truly awesome.
If you wanted to have him say “Grandson”, I wonder if you could take him saying “Grand Inquisitor” from the Kenobi series, and him saying “Son” from the end of Empire Strikes Back when he is calling out to Luke.
You could also amalgamate the existing “Find me…” line, but use Vader saying “me…” (maybe taken from “join me…”), so it is a mix between Palpatine and Vader’s voice.
You could do something similar with the line “Fulfill your destiny” and let it be a combo of Palpatine (and/or Snoke) and Vader’s voices, since they all say some variation of that line. “Fulfill/it is your destiny.” Or just let Vader’s line play out as-is when he gets to the Wayfinder.
I have taken your advice of cobbling together pre existing lines: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RePciUcAavIqVLOfWRVp3eNg0wXYEMcB/view?usp=sharing
Now it does sound like him imo.
The hardest thing has definitely been to generate a performance that doesn’t just feel like JEJ doing a cold read, but rather him performing Vader. I took another stab at it: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gjKx7o3NC9aTZX1nDYD8ItbkJ6xn8BSp/view?usp=sharing
I think I notice improvement but I have been going insane listening to a million takes so I might just have tunnel vision lol
Jar Jar Bricks said:
Kind of a link in from the Rogue One thread discussion - if we ever choose to commission Ryan Golden I’d be willing to pitch in a bit just to have him say that line for this scene.
I don’t think AI Vader sounds fully there quite yet. Which is surprising because AI Kylo Ren (masked) sounded pretty darn good when it got it right.
I’m basically using soundbites from the OT to train the clone so it should theoretically sound the same. I’m trying to get different takes to see if he gets closer. Do you think it is a performance issue? Is it too subdued?