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ken-obi

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4-Feb-2022
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18-May-2022
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Post
#1475542
Topic
Star Wars <strong>News</strong> - articles that may not have enough interest for their own threads...
Time

I could not find an “in memoriam” thread for Star Wars on here, and so I am sorry if this is in the wrong place, but a belated RIP to Alan Ladd Jnr, who passed away on 2nd March.

Without Alan Ladd Jnr, there would be no Star Wars.

A piece from Deadline:

Alan Ladd Jr. Dies: ‘Star Wars’ Shepherd, Oscar-Winning ‘Braveheart’ Producer & Former Exec At Fox, MGM/UA Was 84

Post
#1475455
Topic
Anakin should have become Darth Vader before the last 10 minutes of Episode III
Time

Mocata said:

Anyway, on topic, no Vader as he was in SW originally should not have been shown in the PT.

This for me too. I am sure the PR, marketing and merchandising people were overjoyed at it being the film and being able to use such an iconic image. But it really had no business being shown in the PT from a story point of view. The end few scenes in ROTS just summed up the rushed box ticking that was going no in the last Prequel film.

(That is also ignoring the awful way the scene was actually executed - Noooooo!!!)

Post
#1475454
Topic
Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ?
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ?

I don’t think this plot line mentioned in the originals was revisited.

It would appear Lucas did indeed forget, or didn’t care. But given the large number of discrepancies between the two trilogies onscreen at the time it is one that is often overlooked.

I do love the deep mental gymnastics by some to try and align the discrepancies, and some of the excuses and justifications are pretty good and thoughtful, yet often fall apart in the overall scheme of things. It would be interesting to see such efforts put into explaining George why he didn’t simply write a more coherent Prequel Trilogy for his Saga. Or why he didn’t address the many discrepancies in the drafts or re-writes before filming began.

Post
#1475450
Topic
Should Palpatine have been the one to say “To be angry is to be human”?
Time

darklordoftech said:

This way it would be Palpatine pushing Anakin toward the Dark Side rather than Padmé seeing nothing wrong with slaughtering children. Palpatine being the only one who knows what Anakin did to the Tuskens would explain why Padmé didn’t see his turn coming.

Yes, Palpatine would have been a better choice for the line. But given the way the so called romance or love story was written in AOTC it is doubtful even this line could have saved or made it less “icky”, toxic, controlling or abusive.

Maybe Anakin instead could have said:

“Please don’t look at me like that.
Palaptine : Why not?
Anakin : Because it makes me feel uncomfortable”

and gone on from there. It would have made more sense!
 

Anakin about Padme in her sleeping quarters: “She covered the cameras. I don’t think she liked me watching her.” She is obviously uncomfortable with Anakin watching her, again.

Anakin later blames Padme for “the kiss that you should never have given me”, despite it Anakin being the person to instigate that kiss, before Padme quickly put a stop to his advances.

Anakin to Padme: “I… I killed them. I killed them all. They’re dead… every single one of them. And not just the men. But the women… and the children, too. They’re like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! I HATE THEM!”

There is obviously a lot more to this, from Anakin disrespecting Padme’s authority as a person, and openly undermining her authority in front of others. She repeatedly tells him to stop making advances and he refuses to accept these requests. Even Anakin outright telling Padme he doesn’t like what she does, or stands for, and that a dictatorship is the correct way to run a galaxy.

But on Geonosis this all changes, Padme professes her love for Anakin, which is pretty much out of nowhere (other than George’s fetish leather scene in front the fire), and they marry in secret soon afterwards. Huh. WTF?!

Yet all of the above is portrayed as some sort of this is all a part of a “will-they-won’t-they” fall in love scenario, but in reality it comes across as toxic and controlling. The toxic and controlling aspects would have been better served on screen demonstrating Palpatine and Anakin’s relationship, and Palpatine’s growing influence and control over Anakin - not in Anakin and Padme’s poorly written and unbelievable “love story”.
 

Post
#1475449
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator &amp; Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

screams in the void said:

Servii said:

screams in the void said:

Yeah , the Legends/canon debate never really bothered me as I remember when the original Marvel comics were kind of dismissed in the 90s and not considered worthy of " Canon " status , and then a decade or so later , they were incorporated into the EU novels and comics etc . Plus , you have the fact that though George didn’t see the EU material as part of his universe , he still often cherry picked from it , from the prequels to the clone wars and even to his sequel trilogy treatments . Which is what the current iteration of Lucasfilm under Disney has been doing a lot of as well .So I see that as relevant to this threads title . I have been making the point ,often ,as well , that the legends material is still in print and yes , a lot of it is even being re issued with newly commissioned cover art .A lot of people act like those stories were wiped from existence when that is clearly not the case .The way I see it ,with everything out there , anyone is free to follow one or the other or even mix and match to suit their tastes where it fits . There’s something for everyone and I will never complain about it . I just read/watch what I like and ignore the rest . I remember the dark times , from about 1986 to 1991 when there was hardly any Star Wars material available .

That’s a good way of approaching it. Star Wars is like a buffet. You enjoy what you like and leave the rest for others. It’s not really worth it to get caught up in which stories are canon or not, since they’re all works of fiction, anyway. The old EU’s “softer” approach to canon, with the different tiers and all that, was more supportive of that “buffet” mindset, since you could take or leave individual stories based on what you preferred. Disney canon is more monolithic by comparison, though that may be starting to change now with stuff like Visions and the KOTOR remake.

yup , it is like a buffet , and with the current canon , I also take or leave individual stories based on what I prefer ,as I do with the old EU .

I fully agree. If only more fans thought along this way, instead of being beholden to what George, or someone at Lucasfilm or Disney says or thinks.

As this thread highlights, these people in power have a highly selective and evolving relationship with the truth and history of Star Wars. Even to the point of trying to retcon or devalue our memories, via changes to ‘canon’, or ‘legends’, or ‘EU’. Or other labels used to categorize certain previous official or licensed content as being less important, and there is a new story or version to replace it.

Continuing on this:

 

Stardust1138 said:

The following from George explains everything:

"Everybody said, “Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.” Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody. What really happened is, the Sith ruled the universe for a while, 2,000 years ago.

No, it really doesn’t explain everything. This is quite the shitty and ungracious thing when George talks like this. As if his vision is the only one that matters to everyone. And also plays down the contributions of others to the Star Wars Universe.

Additional information:

The “Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody” did actually happen, in the EU. The Jedi-Sith War is part the Darth Bane trilogy of books, the first books to focus on Darth Bane.

Those three Darh Bane books were written by Drew Karpyshyn, who also wrote the senior writer and one of the core game designers on “Knights of the Old Republic” games. He also worked as a writer on the “The Old Republic” game, and wrote two novels set in the same era, “The Old Republic: Revan” and “The Old Republic: Annihilation”.
 

Even the official Star Wars website hints at a Jedi-Sith War in the “databank” for Darth Bane:

“After the Sith were decimated by the Jedi Knights of a thousand years ago, Bane enacted the Sith rule of two: there would be only two active Sith at one time – a Dark Lord to embody the power, and an apprentice to crave it.”
 

In canon, in the 2017-18 “Age of Republic - Darth Maul” comics, it is revealed there was a huge battle around 1000 years ago, between the Jedi and Sith on Malachor, a place where a huge amount of Sith died.

Sidious: “It was here on this dead world that the Jedi struck a terrible blow against the Sith. Many of our order were struck down. All because they wanted to be free.”

This also gave reason for Maul to believe that the Sith deserved revenge for their slaughter at the hands of the Jedi.

 

Thankfully, there are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio George, than are dreamt of in your retconned philosophy.

 
 

Edit: About George’s plans for his new version of the Sequel Trilogy (just one of many over the years for the ST, including there not being any ST at all):

Stardust1138 said:

Greetings all! It’s been awhile. Further details of George’s Sequels leaked from the upcoming book “The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005”.

Here George gives a greater context to the story of the trilogy he wanted to tell beyond what we’ve heard with regards to the Whills, Luke being in exile to find his spark again in Episode VII, and the son of Han and Leia falling to the Dark Side.

THE CHOSEN ONE

George Lucas: "Darth Maul trained a girl, Darth Talon, who was in the comic books as his apprentice. She was the new Darth Vader, and most of the action was with her. So these were the two main villains of the trilogy. Maul eventually becomes the godfather of crime in the universe because, as the Empire falls, he takes over.

The movies are about how Leia—I mean, who else is going to be the leader?—is trying to build the Republic. They still have the apparatus of the Republic but they have to get it under control from the gangsters. That was the main story.

It starts out a few years after Return of the Jedi and we establish pretty quickly that there’s this underworld, there are these offshoot stormtroopers who started their own planets, and that Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds, and train them. It’ll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi.

By the end of the trilogy Luke would have rebuilt much of the Jedi, and we would have the renewal of the New Republic, with Leia, Senator Organa, becoming the Supreme Chancellor in charge of everything. So she ended up being the Chosen One."

SparkySywer sums up the issue of this would-be retcon by George in having Leia now being the Chosen One, instead of Anakin:

SparkySywer said:

He [George Lucas] describes Anakin as a very straightforward Chosen One who does defeat the Sith and bring balance to the Force in RotJ, at least until he changed his mind and decided Leia was the Chosen One, except not because he never ended up making that ST.

Post
#1474581
Topic
I wish someone would ask Kathleen Kennedy about the original versions of the movies
Time

Stardust1138 said:

ken-obi said:

Interviewer: “Sorry, I mean like the… the vision of George’s final cut of the film that he left us with? Like whether that might be altered over time?”

Kathleen Kennedy: “You mean the themes and ideas in the six movies he has made?”

Interviewer: “Just the Edits… he has changed over time… like the Special Editions and that sort of thing…”

Kathleen Kennedy: “Oh! I haven’t touched those. (laughs) You kidding? Those will always remain his.”

It’s good to see full context after like you said a clickbait website misrepresented what was said to an extent but this part of the exchange I quoted I find is key to the whole discussion as the interviewer asked about the edits and clarified for her to give an answer. Like she said she hasn’t touched them as they remain George’s and they’ll always remain his. This I think alludes to changing them back to the unaltered state. I wouldn’t put it pass them after the whole Sequel Trilogy fiasco and adding part of the Holiday Special to Disney+ but I don’t think it will happen either. If anything not mentioning Jason Wingreen in their Boba Fett special proves they have no intentions to release them.

Again:

ken-obi said:

Kennedy said she wouldn’t make more changes to the films, and nothing at all about the unaltered theatrical versions.

 

Stardust1138 said:

She gave her answer in an interview at Celebration 2017.

So, no. Kennedy did not give her answer to the OP’s question as you claimed.

If you want to now take Kennedy’s comments from that 2017 interview to somehow now be “alluding to changing them back to the unaltered state” then that is up to you, but you likely shouldn’t misinform others like that, especially with the facts at hand.

Post
#1474526
Topic
I wish someone would ask Kathleen Kennedy about the original versions of the movies
Time

Stardust1138 said:

She gave her answer in an interview at Celebration 2017.

https://movieweb.com/star-wars-classic-trilogy-disney-wont-alter-restore/

No she didn’t.

Kennedy said she wouldn’t make more changes to the films, and nothing at all about the unaltered theatrical versions.

It was presented as what you allude to and others in the lazy clickbait media, as that awful movieweb article did, but when you actually take the time to read Kennedy’s quotes from the interview it is obvious that is not what she was referring to.
 

Interviewer: “A lot has been said about the pass over to Disney, but Star Wars is film of changes… it has evolved over time. Uh, is there like, a contractual or a handshake agreement that the films are locked in their current form?”.

Kathleen Kennedy: “No, there is no-one actually locking us into anything. In fact, the beauty of this relationship with The Walt Disney Company is they have been absolutely fantastic at standing back and pretty much letting us do what we want.”

Interviewer: “Sorry, I mean like the… the vision of George’s final cut of the film that he left us with? Like whether that might be altered over time?”

Kathleen Kennedy: “You mean the themes and ideas in the six movies he has made?”

Interviewer: “Just the Edits… he has changed over time… like the Special Editions and that sort of thing…”

Kathleen Kennedy: “Oh! I haven’t touched those. (laughs) You kidding? Those will always remain his.”
 

The 2017 interview with Kathleen Kennedy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZO0_yYvmxo
 

darklordoftech said:

Lucas was often asked about the original versions and Kennedy has been asked about further changes to the movies, but Kennedy has never been asked about the original versions.

Somebody really should, or others high up at Lucasfilm or Disney. Fans probably can’t get get near anyone to ask the question, though journalists should be able to, but for some reason never ask the question.

Post
#1473161
Topic
RIP Tom Veitch, 1941-2022
Time

This is such sad news.
 

Tom Veitch on The Rise Of Skywalker film featuring elements from his Dark Empire comic books: “I kinda like the idea that I wrote a billion dollar movie!”
 

Man, it is surprising to not see more Tom Veitch’s passing on here, given you guys are one the last torchbearers for acknowledging the real history of Star Wars. And not that ret-conned + highly selective version George and his hoards of one-eyed acolytes are so fond of repeating and spreading as gospel (Is TFn still a thing, or have they spread their wings since?!).
 

People often forget it was Tom who persuaded George Lucas himself & also Lucasfilm that bringing back Star Wars would work, both artistically and financially, for the 1990s. And when it Tom proved it did work within only a couple of years, with what became the EU (books, comics and video games) as well as boxed home video re-releases of the Original Trilogy - which were all flying off the shelves, it was only then did George begin working on the Star Wars Special Editions in 1993 and hurriedly writing the Prequel Trilogy films on the back of that Star Wars revival a year later in 1994. Tom’s “Dark Empire” series offered us fans something we all desperately wanted: the story of what happened after Return of the Jedi. In effect, a Sequel Trilogy.

A handful or articles for anyone wanting to know a little more about the man who persuaded George Lucas that Star Wars could once again be popular, have artistic merit and also make money, who alongside Timothy Zahn, re-popularised and brought back Star Wars after the “Dark Times” fallow period of post-Jedi content:

https://starwarsinterviews.com/reviews/exclusive-16-pages-of-dark-empire-author-tom-veitchs-new-star-wars-book
https://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/interview-with-dark-empire-writer-tom.html
https://www.denofgeek.com/books/dark-empire-the-rise-of-skywalker
https://gizmodo.com/dark-empire-tom-veitch-star-wars-cycles-1848585214
https://www.vulture.com/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-easter-eggs-and-references.html
https://www.bobafettfanclub.com/news/fettpedia/veitchkennedy-brought-back-fett
https://masterjitips.com/tom-veitch-the-comic-writer-who-helped-revitalize-star-wars-has-died-at-age-80
https://downthetubes.net/in-memoriam-comics-writer-and-poet-tom-veitch-family-seeks-support
It is a very sad day for Star Wars Fans (EckhartsLadder video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLEWSgDg9o8

 

 

There is also much more besides. Not just inventing holocrons, bringing back Boba Fett into the universe, being the first to be allowed to dig into the history of the Sith (upon George’s final approval), the two-bladed lightsaber, having Jedi fighting with a lightsaber in each hand. But so much more.

Tom’s later “Tales of the Jedi” series project offered a completely new Star Wars story set thousands of years before the Original Trilogy - way before projects such as Knights of the Old Republic, Darth Bane, and The High Republic. Tom Veitch was at the forefront of exactly what the Star Wars fans wanted at the time. Many stories have been told since his work in the Star Wars universe was unceremoniously ended. But as a major part for the foundation of the Expanded Universe, his projects and contributions remain among some of the most important in Star Wars.

Tom Veitch on stating the Tales Of The Jedi project: “I feel pretty good about it. It was an opportunity that arose, and I proposed it, found the artists, and pretty much put the whole thing together myself. It was a great time to be doing Star Wars.”

When asked “what led you to make the decision to hand over control of writing Tales Of The Jedi to Kevin J. Anderson?”
Tom, classy as ever, replied: "Well, that’s a long story. Ultimately, in any collective business enterprise, the creative side begins to suffer, in one way or another. Let me sum it up by saying, “As Star Wars once again became a cultural phenomenon, I felt my freedom begin to slip away, and so it was time to do other things.”

 

Lightsider (Tom’s cancelled short novel) and the unceremonious ending between Tom and Lucasfilm:

Even in the early 1990’s George had long become what he himself had hated, the movie studio system of control. And like that system, if George couldn’t have full control of something, then that was the end of it. Including Tom’s projects, as Tom is quoted on below.

Lightsider was a proposed short novel by Tom set between the events of Dark Empire I & II, and focused on another adventure with Luke Skywalker. George had once again read the book and liked it. George then later found out this novel he had approved was without a contract (giving more control, rights and any licensing share to the author), and so George terminated the project.

Tom Veitch: “I can tell you the book was written and well-received by LucasArts. George read it and approved it. But due to the stodgy side of the business, we never received a contract! When George found out that he had approved the book without a contract, he killed the project. There was a tremendous uproar at that point and the axe fell in a number of ways. One of the major consequences was that a proposed third series of Dark Empire was cancelled, Cam (Kennedy) resigned, and I was told to wind up the whole plot-line in the two-issue series that Jim Baikie drew. It was a sad day, but it shows you how the business side can hurt the creative side, even on a popular project. The legal beagles were slow to get out the contracts, and “1000’s of Bothans died”, so to speak.”
 

And so the very project that revitalised and made Star Wars popular again never got the full six-part conclusion it so deserved. Instead it was condensed into 2-part end of the story, and that was the end of Tom Veitch’s involvement in Star Wars. George and Lucasfilm have since rarely acknowledged Tom’s work or contributions, bar the odd rare article on the official site, and when discussing that era of Star Wars history instead push and highlight the works of the more malleable Timothy Zahn instead. As many fans on places like here know, that happens a lot in the George’s whitewashed version for the official history of Star Wars.

 

If anyone hasn’t done so already, please go hunt out and read a copy of “Dark Empire”, you won’t regret it. If you like it then go pick up “Tales Of The Jedi”, or the “A Hunter’s Fate: Greedo’s Tale” part of Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina book. Cam Kennedy’s excellent work too. And maybe more of Tom’s work outside of Star Wars.
 

RIP Tom Veitch.

Post
#1473085
Topic
What 'a Star Wars Story' / anthology / spinoff film would you like to see?
Time

Thankyou for writing all of that but I am not interested in reading George’s many differing ideas for his supposed Sequel Trilogy, especially not in a thread for standalone spinoffs from the main Saga films.

But if I ever want to do a drinking game I know to look for your posts with the words “George Lucas”, “Sequel Trilogy”, “midichlorians”, and “whills” 😃

I hope you get to see the films you wish to see someday.

But as I said above, Star Wars is such an amazing sandbox, the stories you could come up with are so vast, from so many artists with so viewpoints, and contrasting styles.

Post
#1472909
Topic
<strong>STAR WARS: REBELS</strong> (animated tv series) - a general discussion thread
Time

jedi_bendu said:

Fellow Rebels fans rejoice: Dark Horse are starting off their return to Star Wars by publishing an omnibus of comic strips from the Rebels magazine in Germany, most of which were previously unavailable in the US and UK.

https://previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAR220315

I love that this show is still getting some love and acknowledgment. Only 4 months to go! 😃

Post
#1472907
Topic
What 'a Star Wars Story' / anthology / spinoff film would you like to see?
Time

Stardust1138 said:

I’d love to see a story that follows through with George’s Sequel plans of showing the Whills and microbiotic world. I’m so fascinated by the Force and the lore surrounding it. I know I’m in the minority though and in turn know it most likely will never happen.

Ugh, no thanks. George had 30 years to do a Sequel Trilogy, but chose not to, and even denied there was ever going be one. Then got upset because the company who had just paid him $4 billion for Star Wars wouldn’t make and pay for his newly planned Sequel film ideas for him. To me, why would someone want to see those Sequel plans as a standalone film? It may be interesting to see someone else’s POV on the Force as a spinoff film, but not from George.

Star Wars is such an amazing sandbox, the stories you could come up with are so vast, from so many artists with so viewpoints, and contrasting styles. Now, be brave and don’t look back. Don’t look back.
 

I am eagerly anticipating Rogue Squadron, but would also see like to see a standalone film told from an Imperial POV. Or maybe from the POV of a group civilians and the impact that the Rebellion and Empire have on them.

Post
#1472302
Topic
Disney Plus should release all of the theatrical versions of the Star Wars movies on their service
Time

jpb19 said:

Disney plus should just release all of the cuts of all 11 Star Wars movies in my opinion.

100%. That would be so cool to see and be a big attraction for fans and film lovers currently without a Disney+ subscription.

To also be able to see the cuts they grew up with or experienced first.

Post
#1471386
Topic
Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ?
Time

WookieeWarrior77 said:

Perfectly fine that Stardust cited a CW episode, but that kind of just points out what a problem this was. The movies shouldn’t need a cartoon network show to show what was expected in the backstory of Star Wars. Everyone who’s been in comment sections have insisted Anakin is a more likable character in that series too, but I think he should have been likable in the movies… oh well, I digress. But my point was that the Clone War itself should have happened in the actual movies.

I agree. It is good that it was featured in Clone Wars, but really should have been addressed in the main films, especially as not everyone watching the films is going to watch a 130 episode animated series after the fact.

Though it is not surprising given some of the disconnects and inconsistencies between the Original Trilogy and the later Prequel Trilogy, despite George Lucas having ample time to iron any such issues out when he was writing the Prequels. Why he chose not to is baffling, and is something that seems to still be unanswered.