imperialscum

Why “why”?

Why creep?

And make yourself useful for the first time and go find that picture you were talking about.

PsychoDayv said:

imperialscum said:

But is she actually hot like fire?

SHE SENT ME A “NICE” PIC ONE TIME, AND SHE IS DEFINITELY HOT LIKE FIRE. YES, I DO KNOW FOR SURE THAT IT WAS HER IN THE PIC.

Just how “nice” the picture was?

But is she actually hot like fire?

Frank your Majesty said:

There is no “crystal clear” evidence. Unless Han explicitely states in the movie “I am part of the rebel alliance”, there is room for interpretation. Just accept that other people might interpret the same thing in another way, instead of keeping up this fruitless discussion. At this point, all arguments have been made for and against it.

Even if Han explicitly said “I am part of the rebel alliance” you could still claim he lied.

Now please wake up and fasten your seatbelt as we are about to land in Reality.

Frank your Majesty said:

imperialscum said:

One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

Where is that stated in the script? Isn’t this also just an interpretation based on your impression? Or is your impression above everyone else’s?

Yes the above was my impression that I added to the things that are already “crystal clear”, i.e. that he joined the rebels (see the part of my post you cut out). He is there with the rebels, performs the patrols, wears rebel insignia, reports to the General, General expresses his regret to loose a fighter like him, etc. All this is explicitly in the script and in the film.

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”

I was referring not to those two lines, but my two quotes; I also quoted the scene between Leia and Han in Bespin.

imperialscum said:

These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).

Is that what we’re debating now? I was under the impression that my point was that Han didn’t decide to join the Rebels after ANH. Why would I go looking for evidence that I didn’t take away from the movies to counter my own opinion?

But Just to be clear (again): at the end of ANH Han came back for Luke (and Leia) who he’d become friends with over the course of their adventure. That was established pretty well in the movie, I thought. My one assumption, to connect the dots between ANH and Han’s lack of commitment to the Rebellion full time in ESB is that he’s hanging around for his friends and the steady work the Alliance gives him, while their constant evading of the Empire has prevented Han from being close enough to Tattooine to go pay off Jabba.

To use an analogy, he’s hanging around with his friends and goes to some of the same parties they do, but hasn’t joined their club(/fraternity).

imperialscum said:

And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?

First, also see the above reference to the Bespin scene.
Secondly, as for how this explores his ‘reasons for conflict’; Han is established as a cynical and self-serving character. The referred to run in with the Bounty Hunter on Ord Mantell demonstrates that he is selfishly worried about his own hide, while also being attached to Luke and Leia.
Right there is conflict.

Now you can read more deeply into this through the language of cinema, like the juxtaposition of his character (the oft selfish scoundrel) and Lando’s (who is a ‘responsible’ leader of Cloud City) for example, but the most explicitly stated basis is portrayed through his relationship with Leia, and friendship with Luke, vs his own self-interests.

All this aside though, no one I’ve asked yet has explained how Han is simultaneously a committed Rebel already in Empire and how Leia is so concerned about him leaving and not coming back (and why Han doesn’t assert the opposite when challenged). Please, reconcile those two things for me in Empire, and as I said before, I’ll retract my criticism of ROTJ’s treatment of Han’s character (and confer it on ESB).

Well as I said, your whole argument is based on things you made up yourself (your “impression” as you call it) that go against what is actually in the script/film. He joined the rebels. That is crystal clear whether you want to accept it or not. One simply don’t hang up with rebels on an ice planet performing patrols for fun. Hanging around with rebels is not like being in a social club. You don’t simply associate yourself with people who are being perceived by the Empire as worst-than-criminals just to hang around with “friends”.

As for your question, there are two very obvious explanations. First, not paying Jabba immediately as promised (especially after given a second chance), makes it a big chance he might not actually get out of his palace alive (despite bringing the money). He kinda made a fool of Jabba with his machinations and gangsters value their reputation. Secondly, he could simply try to exploit the situation to probe Leia’s emotions for him.

generalfrevious said:

Well if a franchise peaks after only three years and one sequel, then it isn’t really a good franchise now is it? It’s in the same gutter as Sonic the Hedgehog or The Matrix.

Why are you getting upset by such a trivial thing, which is entirely based on even more trivial thing such as your opinion? Just stay clam and wait for the global warming to destroy Earth.

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.

I quoted Leia and Han in ESB twice! What more do you want for “in the script” if that does not count?! 😮

And just to head you off, in that specific paragraph response I was referring to my earlier responses with those very quotations. I’m sorry that I don’t quote my every comment (or the entire thread for that matter) in each reply. I see little point in repeating myself when you can just click back a page and read it all.
Actual quotes I only use for context for a specific reply or rebuttal, to save cluttering up the thread. But that’s just a matter of etiquette I’ve learnt in using such forums as these.

I guess you refer to:
“I thought you’d decided to stay”
“Well that bounty hunter on Ord Mantell changed my mind”

These two lines do absolutely nothing to explore why he decided to join them at the end of ANH (my main point of the question).

And it does not imply he was in any way conflicted about committing either. It simply means he had to go pay Jabba or “he is a dead man” as he himself clearly explains the reason. Even if for some strange reason you ignore the clear reason given by Solo and still think it was because he was conflicted about committing, then where does the script explain/explore his actual reasons for “conflict”?

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

You haven’t actually answered my main question. Why didn’t ESB already explore Han’s decision to join the rebellion at the end of ANH? Even if he still had any doubts at the time of ESB (which you seem to be the only person to see them), why didn’t ESB directly explore them? ESB was the proper occasion to do either of those things.

I wasn’t aware that I had failed to answer this question, I thought it was pretty darn obvious that Empire did explore that aspect of Han’s character, and that I had pointed that out, particularly with the afore mentioned quotes and examples.

To clear up any doubt, I am under the impression that ESB did show Han’s character riding the line of committing or not and the conflict which results; quite brilliantly too.
Han and Leia’s arguments revolve around whether nor not he should become a rebel leader, their feelings a subtext with in this, and whether Han will commit to their relationship an allegory for his committing to a higher purpose (ergo the rebellion).

imperialscum said:

I guess passing the blame to ROTJ is more convenient? You were picking on ROTJ for not exploring something as trivial and technical as getting some rank, while forgiving ESB for not exploring something as major and character-changing as his decision to join the rebels at the end of ANH.

I was not picking on Han holding the rank of General specifically in ROTJ, I also thought I made this clear, but rather the lack of character development leading to that point. When I watch ESB I always come away seeing Han as conflicted about whether or not to commit, be that to the Rebellion, Leia and even just to paying off Jabba.

Well I was asking for something that is actually in the script. Not something that you made up with your imagination. Because for me (or someone else), that aspect is completely unexplored by ESB.

Benign Viewer said:

Which has a fantastic pay off at the end of Empire, and in my mind is rounded out partially in Luke and Leia rescuing him in ROTJ but is never fully resolved, disappointingly because he has so little to do in the ROTJ screenplay as it stands, when all is said and done.

You haven’t actually answered my main question. Why didn’t ESB already explore Han’s decision to join the rebellion at the end of ANH? Even if he still had any doubts at the time of ESB (which you seem to be the only person to see them), why didn’t ESB directly explore them? ESB was the proper occasion to do either of those things.

I guess passing the blame to ROTJ is more convenient? You were picking on ROTJ for not exploring something as trivial and technical as getting some rank, while forgiving ESB for not exploring something as major and character-changing as his decision to join the rebels at the end of ANH.

OT is essentially his vision. Since they claim TFA will try to capture the OT feel, it doesn’t seem they will be distancing themselves from his vision.

Benign Viewer said:

imperialscum said:

Han was full-time rebel in ESB. Why should ROTJ be responsible for showing something that happened between ANH and ESB.

No he wasn’t.
He did not hold rank within the Alliance, nor is he under contract to them. This is evidenced by the folowing:

• He is just addressed as “Sir”, “Solo” or “Captain Solo” (as he is the Captain of the Falcon);
• Rieekan refers to him as a “fighter” not a ‘soldier’;
• When he addresses the last transport on which Leia was supposed to evacuate, he says “This is Solo”, again not referring to any rank or call sign which he would have as a commissioned rebel; and, most notably,
• He gets into the famous argument with Leia about the fact that he’s decided to leave them, more or less on a whim (and the looming threat of Jabba) - something which he would not be able to do (nor need to) if he had signed on with the Rebel Alliance.
• Luke, by contrast is referred to as “Commander [Skywalker]” almost exclusively during the Hoth sequence (outside of by his friends of course).

Your arguments really don’t have much to do with our character-wise discussion. First of all, being a rebel is all about personally fighting for the cause. It is not about holding some rank. In addition, there are many other ways to support the cause than militarily (for example: politically, diplomatically, logistically, etc.), therefore one does not really require a rank to be a rebel. A “fighter” is much more relate-able term to a “rebel” than a “soldier” is. Assuming Solo was relatively famous among the rebels, it is completely normal for him to just say “This is Solo”. It would be like Che Guevara saying “This is Che” over the radio.

So the fact that he decided to stay with the rebels and help the cause makes him a full-time rebel. We know it wasn’t about the money otherwise he would be on his way to the beach with all the money while Luke was shot down by Vader in ANH. Instead he took completely unnecessary risk and joined the battle. The reason to decide to pay off Jabba is only logical as practically no one is safe when being hunted by galaxy’s best bounty hunters. So why don’t you instead complain about why ESB did not explain his very personal decision at the end of ANH? Why would ROTJ have to explain something completely technical as getting some rank.

generalfrevious said:

JEDI’S FAILURE IS EVERYTHING IT MIGHT AS WELL HAVE ERASED THE WHOLE TRILOGY INTO NONEXISTENCE THE PAIN WILL BE UNBEARABLE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE I WISH THE PREQUELS NEVER EXISTED THE PAIN WOULD NOT BE AS BAD BUT WE LIVE IN A HELLISH UNIVERSE SO I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SUFFER HORRIBLY

Don’t worry, nothing matters any more.

Benign Viewer said:

In ROTJ, Han is bland.

No he is not.

Benign Viewer said:
It’s actually prequel-esque story telling (tell, don’t show characterization) where we never actually see Han make the decision to become a full-time Rebel, and why.

Han was full-time rebel in ESB. Why should ROTJ be responsible for showing something that happened between ANH and ESB.

I really couldn’t watch anything dubbed.

It is not really worth to remake PT since its foundations (story, characters) are crap. Replacing PT would be a good option.

Benign Viewer said:
Han gets rescued. Is made a full time Alliance general in a scene that we don’t see. Goes from event to event as the plot dictates. The unique aspects of his character neither influence nor are influenced by any of these events.

You could say the same stuff about his character in ANH and ESB. The arc is only prominent if you look at it from entire trilogy perspective. In ANH he pretends to be a badass. In ESB he softens up (stops pretending as people get to known him well). In ROTJ he is himself.

Benign Viewer said:
Has a super villain revealed as her father, and a long lost brother revealed, neither of which influence her character nor influence her or events in any way subsequently.

What would you like? A soap opera? Destruction of her home planet didn’t influence her character in any way. Why should this influence her character?

I think AOTC might be perfect for you. You have a sensitive main character. Every little thing influences his character. You got lots of soap opera and whining. On top of that there is lots of “representative or member of High Command” stuff as well.

Benign Viewer said:

For Leia though, making a couple of tweaks to my initial thoughts; you could very easily have near the film’s start had a scene with her arguing with the Alliance command about the necessity/feasibility of rescuing Han, (or just her storming out afterwards even) and perhaps have her demoted for insisting on going to rescue him. Rescue ensues, et cetera et cetera, it now makes more sense for her to be on the Endor shuttle crew.
Add another scene if you like of her taking charge during the battle from one of the Imperial communications relay or something after the loss of some of the rebel leaders due to the Death Star II, or their communications are knocked out, if you want a further pay off for the earlier scene.
These two additions would not take more than a couple of minutes of screen time and BAM you have an arc for Leia without even altering the plot (because sorry, I did not like the recycled use of a Death Star much, cool as the space battle was).

Sorry, bad ideas again. First of all, the rescue as it is was already decided/initiated in ESB. The last scene is basically dedicated to that (they send Lando ahead etc.). Secondly, her making such as stupid argument would actually ruin her character. She always seemed to give priorities to the rebel cause at expense of any personal stuff. In the end there is no necessity/feasibility in rescuing Han from the rebellion perspective. It is a waste of resources.

Now all this speculation is pointless, other than to point out that it would have been very much possible to give the other major characters of the OT arcs in ROTJ, even within the existing plot structure of the film.

Both Han and Liea still have major character arcs in ROTJ. They just aren’t as dumb as you would like them to be. 😃

SilverWook said:

In any case, you’re getting off topic.

My apologies. 😃

DominicCobb said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

While remaining as close to the right side of the law as is arguably possible.
Not to mention on the right side of site policy.

But why not stay true to the cause by not buying altered releases at all and still stay on the right side of the law by not possessing fan edits?

Well you could boycott the altered releases and make precisely zero difference in the sales of those releases and cry to yourself that the best legal way to watch your favorite movies is a shitty LD transfer (GOUT), OR you could suck it up, buy the blu-rays, and then enjoy Harmy’s Despecialized all you want until LFL finally puts out the unaltered set.

Well one could boycott the altered releases, stay true to his/her principles and support the cause with a clear conscious, from a moral high ground. Or one can buy the altered releases and try to support the cause as a hypocrite.

Being a man of principles is never easy. It always comes with a sacrifice.

Bingowings said:

While remaining as close to the right side of the law as is arguably possible.
Not to mention on the right side of site policy.

But why not stay true to the cause by not buying altered releases at all and still stay on the right side of the law by not possessing fan edits?

SilverWook said:

It’s going to be interesting to see if there are any bitter fans sitting out in the cold, with signs proclaiming they are boycotting the film. 😉

Well at least that would be a proper way to support their cause (no matter how stupid the cause may be). We have many bitter fans of theatrical release around here who were still buying the altered releases. Buying them for the sake of being on the legal side to possess fan edits doesn’t really help the cause. On contrary, it practically means supporting Lucas and his altered releases.

Reserved.

The only way to watch Star Wars is to simply watch OT.