imperialscum

DominicCobb said:

fortunately the 97SE is dog shit so no one really cares anyway.

Like your posts.

Alderaan said:

crissrudd4554 said:

And yes you’re right Vader leaving Bespin and arriving on the Star Destroyer definitely could have been executed in the original film so the motivation for the change is unclear.

They were running out of time on ESB and Lucas was only concerned about getting things done. It’s also true that he doesn’t really like the film, or at least thinks it’s the worst Star Wars movie, probably because it was the one that he had the least creative input into.

Sure, Lucas was still a big part of Empire, but Kersh and Kurtz were more in control of making the movie than anyone besides George has ever been in any of the non-Disney movies, and it shows.

When it comes to the most important creative aspects like story, screenplay, concepts, final cut, etc. Lucas pretty much had the same level of input/control as in the other two films. The only aspect that Kershner and Kurtz were actually in control was principal photography, until it spiralled out of control (i.e. went seriously over schedule/budget).

I like 1997 SE. Unfortunately when it comes to available quality of its release, the situation is pretty much the same as that of OOT.

TV’s Frink said:

Oh, your phone came up with those?

I raise it to a 6/10.

Again double standards… you always were a hypocrite.

He can stop at any time and join me on the non-silly side.

DominicCobb said:

imperialscum said:

DominicCobb said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

generalfrevious said:

Kurtz was fired because of Lucas’s ego, and the budget issues on ESB were just an excuse. Lucas could not stand someone else making a better SW movie than him, one that put story first and merchandising second. If Kurtz worked on Jedi it would have blown Empire out of the water.

The ending would have been way better but as it pertains to the totality of ROTJ it is uncertain. Surely things like Luke skipping the end of his training and the Ewoks being so focal wouldn’t have been written into the script but Kurtz’s version of ROTJ would need to do more than fixing the mistakes of the original ROTJ to be legitimately better.

The ending would have been the same. In ESB, Kurtz was not even involved in story creation to begin with. As Kasdan stated about the draft Lucas written “The structure of the story was all there”. If Lucas wanted it to end that way, Kurtz could do absolutely nothing about it.

From what I heard Kurtz’s ending was bittersweet with Luke going into exile and Han dying. Though the latter could have reportedly happened earlier in the film.

It is completely irrelevant since he had no control over the story.

Well clearly because it didn’t go his way, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have input.

It does not mean he had any either.

Let’s not be silly now.

I guess “any significant” would be more diplomatic. Even in ESB script Lucas did not seem to involve him much. Brackett only met with Lucas, while Kasdan said he only interacted with Lucas and Kershner after Lucas handed him his 2nd draft. He was present at November 1978 script conference when much of it was already done.

DominicCobb said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

generalfrevious said:

Kurtz was fired because of Lucas’s ego, and the budget issues on ESB were just an excuse. Lucas could not stand someone else making a better SW movie than him, one that put story first and merchandising second. If Kurtz worked on Jedi it would have blown Empire out of the water.

The ending would have been way better but as it pertains to the totality of ROTJ it is uncertain. Surely things like Luke skipping the end of his training and the Ewoks being so focal wouldn’t have been written into the script but Kurtz’s version of ROTJ would need to do more than fixing the mistakes of the original ROTJ to be legitimately better.

The ending would have been the same. In ESB, Kurtz was not even involved in story creation to begin with. As Kasdan stated about the draft Lucas written “The structure of the story was all there”. If Lucas wanted it to end that way, Kurtz could do absolutely nothing about it.

From what I heard Kurtz’s ending was bittersweet with Luke going into exile and Han dying. Though the latter could have reportedly happened earlier in the film.

It is completely irrelevant since he had no control over the story.

Well clearly because it didn’t go his way, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have input.

It does not mean he had any either.

Lord Haseo said:

imperialscum said:

Lord Haseo said:

generalfrevious said:

Kurtz was fired because of Lucas’s ego, and the budget issues on ESB were just an excuse. Lucas could not stand someone else making a better SW movie than him, one that put story first and merchandising second. If Kurtz worked on Jedi it would have blown Empire out of the water.

The ending would have been way better but as it pertains to the totality of ROTJ it is uncertain. Surely things like Luke skipping the end of his training and the Ewoks being so focal wouldn’t have been written into the script but Kurtz’s version of ROTJ would need to do more than fixing the mistakes of the original ROTJ to be legitimately better.

The ending would have been the same. In ESB, Kurtz was not even involved in story creation to begin with. As Kasdan stated about the draft Lucas written “The structure of the story was all there”. If Lucas wanted it to end that way, Kurtz could do absolutely nothing about it.

From what I heard Kurtz’s ending was bittersweet with Luke going into exile and Han dying. Though the latter could have reportedly happened earlier in the film.

It is completely irrelevant since he had no control over the story.

Lord Haseo said:

generalfrevious said:

Kurtz was fired because of Lucas’s ego, and the budget issues on ESB were just an excuse. Lucas could not stand someone else making a better SW movie than him, one that put story first and merchandising second. If Kurtz worked on Jedi it would have blown Empire out of the water.

The ending would have been way better but as it pertains to the totality of ROTJ it is uncertain. Surely things like Luke skipping the end of his training and the Ewoks being so focal wouldn’t have been written into the script but Kurtz’s version of ROTJ would need to do more than fixing the mistakes of the original ROTJ to be legitimately better.

The ending would have been the same. In ESB, Kurtz was not even involved in story creation to begin with. As Kasdan stated about the draft Lucas written “The structure of the story was all there”. If Lucas wanted it to end that way, Kurtz could do absolutely nothing about it.

adywan said:

imperialscum said:

Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzle

Those books aren’t as “reliable” as you may think. People who worked on those movies have stated that they are basically the “Revised history according to George Lucas”.

Who are those people and what are the prime examples of revision? The book pretty much focus only on reliable sources, such as: actual material (scripts, concept art, footage, etc.), interviews with involved (lots of those are from the time films were made/released) and transcripts of various meetings.

TV’s Frink said:

imperialscum said:

TV’s Frink said:

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

They are not mistakes… you are witnessing language evolution in real time. 😉

Yeah, I’m sure everyone else will start making the same mistakes any day now.

I am not so sure but I trust you on this one.

TV’s Frink said:

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

They are not mistakes… you are witnessing language evolution in real time. 😉

Judge said:

imperialscum said:

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time

No, what you’re describing is the executive producer. The producer’s job is to oversee set design, story development, casting, shooting etc. and create a good motion picture. GL clearly didn’t allocate enough money and time for the film he wanted to make in the first place, given that he went back after the premiere.

Executive producer’s job is not ensuring the film to run on budget and schedule. Executive producer’s job is to get the founding for the film (getting investors, etc.). When the budget and schedule are set according to the allocated/available founds, it is the producer’s job to keep the production within those limits.

Since Lucas handled all the creative aspects (ideas, story, script, editing, etc.), the aspect of ensuring the film to ran on budget and schedule was basically Kurtz’s only job.

The allocated money could be sufficient if the execution would be done efficiently. By efficiently I do not mean producing bad results, but producing good results in minimum amount of time.

Judge said:

imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It seems like Kazanjian was brought in by Lucas just to get the film finished after Kurtz & Kersh spent a bit too much time trying to make it good with no regard to costs. This was, I think, the start of GL’s tendency to surround himself with yes-men in later years - obviously with a view to maximising profit. I guess it depends what you consider the role of the producer to be; make the film as good as possible, or make the film as cheap as possible. Ironic though that Lucas was the one who went back and re-shot most of the film’s final sequence after the film had premiered.

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time, however in the end it is still the producers responsibility if the film goes over-schedule or over-budget. Producers/directors should be talented experts who can produce quality results in limited amount of time. That is why not just anyone is fit for the job.

In addition, saying something like “trying to make it good with no regard to costs” is completely detached from reality and downright ridiculous considering the specific conditions at that time. LF was a fragile newly-founded independent studio that could easily bankrupt. If that happened ESB would probably be quite different.

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
It also does not have much weight coming from Kurtz (who was being fired during ESB for incompetence and had nothing to do with ROTJ and Prowse (who seemed to have be acting as jerk for years before he eventually got banned from LF events).

Do you have a reliable source for your claim re: Kurtz? I’ve never read or seen anything to suggest he was fired for incompetence, only that he left post-ESB due to creative differences.

The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

Even Lucas has never suggested that, despite the clear acrimony between them.

Lucas always seemed to try his best to keep everything private regarding conflicts during OT.

Judge said:

George’s worst decision (or perhaps more accurately his biggest mistake) was allowing himself to get sucked into the merchandising machine. Most of the problems people have with the franchise as a whole can be traced back to this.

The development of RoTJ was basically entirely shaped by the toy companies; both Gary Kurtz and David Prowse have confirmed this independently. Rather than focusing on crafting a satisfying dramatic conclusion to the trilogy, the final chapter became little more than a glorified toy advert in George’s eyes.

I find this toy selling conspiracy with regards to ROTJ ridiculous. They sold just as much toys for ANH and ESB as they did for ROTJ. People try to point at Ewoks as the main “evidence”, but the fact is that difficulty of getting so many that tall people to play Wookiees (originally intended) is way more reasonable explanation.

It also does not have much weight coming from Kurtz (who was being fired during ESB for incompetence and had nothing to do with ROTJ) and Prowse (who seemed to have be acting as jerk for years before he eventually got banned from LF events).

Star Wars Episode VII: Now There Are Two of Them

Mocata said:

Screw the fans, release the damn thing so the people who made it what it was can feel appreciated. If they are even alive now. So aggravating.

I would say the other way around. People who worked on the film were paid and it was basically their job. The priority should be on present and future people who enjoy (will enjoy) these films.

stealthboy said:

but it’s really about preserving what won the film 7 Academy Awards

I couldn’t care less about some irrelevant stuff like Academy Awards. The film should be preserved for present and future generations. That is the only thing that is relevant.

crissrudd4554 said:

Selling the same SEs won’t be enough of a selling point eventually, hell it really isn’t now.

They do not need to sell OT any more. They can make shitty films like TFA every year and sell them in theatres and through home release and get billions for each of them.

nickyd47 said:

As for their not being a reason for Disney/Fox to release the theatrical cuts is nonsense. Those Theatrical/Special edition comparison videos on YouTube have millions of hits a piece. The Despecialized edition videos have millions of hits a piece. There are millions of people interested in the theatrical cuts. That is hard evidence of that. The demand is there.

The demand may as well be in millions, however getting millions from OOT release is insignificant when they can produce shitty films like TFA every year and get billions for each of them.

SilverWook said:

ray_afraid said:

There is nothing wrong with re-creating a character whom the original actor sold his likeness for.

And whose estate gave their blessing.

It is nice if they asked his relatives but it is inconsequential. As Ray said, he sold his likeness for the character and that is it.

MathUser said:

If the forum had a search feature I could at least search for a topic that way.

Search feature is completely unnecessary when you have Google. In case you do not know how to search within particular website with Google:

site:originaltrilogy.com frink bully

Mithrandir said:

imperialscum said:

Mithrandir said:

Unlike what most of people think, at times (and only at times) I believe he failed on looking and caring way too much what other people (the industry) was doing when he engaged the prequels. The chosen one thing was taken from Matrix. The Coliseum in AOTC from Gladiator. Qui Gonn came out of someone’s suggestion.

Matrix and TPM where released at the same time so it seems very unlikely.

I just don’t buy for a second that Lucas or Steven Spielberg didn’t have virtual access to any blockbuster script before its release. At some point, any creative environment works as a social web.

Unlikely. Even if Lucas did have the access to all scripts in film business, he probably would not have time to read many of them. This is especially unrealistic in light of your argument regarding “loosing market” to Matrix, as judging simply by the script it did not seem it would be very popular.

Mithrandir said:

Unlike what most of people think, at times (and only at times) I believe he failed on looking and caring way too much what other people (the industry) was doing when he engaged the prequels. The chosen one thing was taken from Matrix. The Coliseum in AOTC from Gladiator. Qui Gonn came out of someone’s suggestion.

Matrix and TPM where released at the same time so it seems very unlikely.

TV’s Frink said:

Wazzles said:

Darth Lucas said:

I’d say this most recent rumor, coupled with the fact that Mike Verta has practically dropped off the face of the earth, is probably a good sign.

I think that’s unrelated.

How do you know?

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

I doubt that Disney or Lucasfilm would ever release Mike Verta’s project.

How do you know?

One said “I think” and the other said “I doubt”. I do not see how this implies “I know” to you?