imperialscum

darklordoftech said:

I hate how some EU fans are so indoctrinated in it that they flame anybody who suggests something that contradicts it.

Well I don't flame anyone. I don't care what other people like or hate. I have my own "head-canon". Still sometimes I try to make a little advertisement for the things I like.

And I can hardly consider myself EU fan since I dislike all EU except for maybe 5-7 video games.

Humby said:

Yeah, JJ's take on Star Trek was specifically designed to be completely different.  Reinventing the wheel, if you will.

I think most of the people involved on Ep VII, however, will be much more invested in revisiting the elements that made the OT so great, and seemed to be missing from the PT.  In his case, the OT was the wheel, and the PT was a leak in the wheel.  The ST will patch the leak and refill the wheel, haha.

I will wait until I see the film...

Ryan McAvoy said:

Seeing the Clone Wars was the main reason I bought cinema tickets to those films. But all we got was Yoda saying they'd started in AOTC, one battle above Coruscant in ROTS, a couple of montages and then they were over. What happened to 'Episode II.5: The Clone Wars' Where we spent 2 hours having fun and beginning to actually like our two heroes Anakin and Obi-Wan?

Well the first two films should be about adventures and clone wars while the third one should be about Vader "chopping of heads". But as Lucas said it... that was not the "story". The story was how Anakin was an unlikeable jerk.

darklordoftech said:

imperialscum said: darklordoftech is trying to say that in OT Palpatine was not a Sith and presents that as some kind of fact.

Kasdan asked Lucas how Palpatine, who was never a Jedi, can use The Force, and Lucas responded, "Anybody can use The Force." If Palpatine was a Sith, instead of saying, "Anybody can use The Force", Lucas would have said, "Sith can also use The Force."

Kasdan's question made an assumption that only Jedi can use the force. Lucas just corrected Kasdan's assumption by saying that everyone can use the force ("everyone" qualified everyone, including Sith). By no logical standard that is an implication that Palpatine was not a Sith.

For example, that's like asking basketball player if he can play football since he is not a professional player. And he would say that everyone can play football. Would that answer give you an indication that he is not a basketball player?

darklordoftech said:

imperialscum said: Same goes for "Darth".

I just said that I don't like that the prequels made "Darth" a title. You than said it's a fact that "Darth" was always a title.

You indeed said that prequels made a Darth a title. By that I assumed you implied that it could not be a title in OT. I then just said that there is enough indication that in OT that Darth could be a title in OT, if one chose to think so.

American Hominid said:

imperialscum said:

darklordoftech said:

I don't want any Darths. Vader not being the only Darth in the prequels was bad enough. 

Look... in OT it is clearly stated that Anakin was given a Darth name after he was seduced to the dark side. It is also established that he became a Sith. This is a good indication that the name Darth has something to do with Sith.

And he was seduced by who? Who he calls "master"?

In OT there is enough evidence suggesting Darth was a Sith thing and Palpatine was also a Sith.

 The only other character who has a double/fake name in the OT that I can think of is Ben Kenobi, and Ben doesn't seem to be a title for him. So 'Darth' needn't, from the OT alone, be a title (though it works well as one).

Vader was seduced to the dark side, but he could have identified as the Dark Lord of the Sith on his own (how the name came about, and what exactly a Sith is, are never mentioned in the OT films). Maybe there was something about that tradition that appealed to him, whereas the Emperor was more about just using the dark side for himself, no affiliations except himself and his own creations (the Empire).

I'm not saying that's actually how it was going to be, just that that seems like a believable non-Palpatine-Sith explanation to me. Especially given how the term 'Sith' doesn't seem to be even mentioned in the ROTJ story conferences or planning. There isn't any inkling, as far as I can tell, in the OT of a longstanding historical struggle between not just the users of the sides of the Force but two specific traditions that embody each side, of which Palpatine and Darth Vader are the sole current members of one. In The Making of ROTJ, Palpatine is described as kind of a dark side counterpart to Yoda. And Yoda is described as more of a teacher than a Jedi. A high spiritual priest who knows the Force.

The thing is that it is not clearly stated or explained. What I was trying to say is that there is enough evidence that one can reasonably think Palpatine was a Sith. But then again there not clearly stated so one can reasonably think he wasn't.

But it irritates me when darklordoftech is trying to say that in OT Palpatine was not a Sith and presents that as some kind of fact. Same goes for "Darth".

darklordoftech said:

American Hominid said: The only other character who has a double/fake name in the OT that I can think of is Ben Kenobi, and Ben doesn't seem to be a title for him. So 'Darth' needn't, from the OT alone, be a title (though it works well as one).

Furthermore, Obi-Wan says, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader." The implication is that "Darth" is a first name, not a title.

You do realise that Obi-Wan was lying to Luke at that point? He couldn't say "A young Jedi named Anakin Skywalker..."

vacuum said:

Owyn_Merrilin said:

Sadly that cartoon was better than the actual prequels were, by a very wide margin. It finally gave us a heroic Anakin, for one thing.

 not to mention the writers of the show liked the OT, unlike lucas.

Well an extremely positive thing about CW is that they actually made Anakin a likeable character as opposed to PT. But CW still has a lot of crap concepts from PT, such as clone troopers, droid armies, etc. As well as some of their own crap.

darklordoftech said:

I don't want any Darths. Vader not being the only Darth in the prequels was bad enough. 

Look... in OT it is clearly stated that Anakin was given a Darth name after he was seduced to the dark side. It is also established that he became a Sith. This is a good indication that the name Darth has something to do with Sith.

And he was seduced by who? Who he calls "master"?

In OT there is enough evidence suggesting Darth was a Sith thing and Palpatine was also a Sith.

darklordoftech said:

imperialscum said:

darklordoftech said:

I hate how some EU fans twist facts to support the EU. If you show them proof that the EU screwed up, they'll claim that it was actually the movies or the interviewee who screwed up.

 Well if the facts were established by PT I have no problem in twisting them.

 It happens with OT facts just as much as it happens with PT facts.

Well depends on what you perceive as OT "facts". Because I have a feeling that you think it is a fact that Palpatine was not a Sith just because it is never explicitly said he was.

darklordoftech said:

I hate how some EU fans twist facts to support the EU. If you show them proof that the EU screwed up, they'll claim that it was actually the movies or the interviewee who screwed up.

 Well if the facts were established by PT I have no problem in twisting them.

SilverWook said:

1978(?) British 2001 reissue poster with a quote from a certain director.

Source:

http://blackholereviews.blogspot.com/

I would disagree with him. :)

OBI-WAN37 said:

No, I just don't see it. I don't know why so many of the original-trilogy-fans tend to hate the prequels. I guess it's just a cultural phenomena. I love the prequels.

I don't hate the prequels... unless they put prequel-related parasites in OT of course (ghost scene change etc.). I just don't enjoy AOTC and ROTS since are essentially a soap opera about an extremely unlikeable character. The only prequel I can enjoy to some extent is TPM since it is still an adventure... unlike AOTC and ROTS.

OBI-WAN37 said:

imperialscum said:

OBI-WAN37 said:

I'm amazed at how many very minor flaws people on this site manage to find in the prequels.

Minor flaws? Can you please try to respond to my first post in this thread? Puggo summarised it on this page as well.

I haven't had the pleasure of a prequel fan boys making any decent replies to that. Usually I just get ignored when I bring that up.

 Ok, I don't know what you're talking about when you say your first post, but as to what Pluggo said, I think that that "flaw" in Anakin's character isn't really a flaw that even really detracts from the movie, but more something original trilogy-fans pick on in order to find a way to hate the movie.

No, it actually isn't a flaw but a rather the way the character and story revolving around it was written. It wasn't written as an adventure... but as a bad drama about an extremely unlikable character.

So at that point it comes down to preference. Whether you like adventure (OT) or soap opera (PT).

OBI-WAN37 said:

I'm amazed at how many very minor flaws people on this site manage to find in the prequels.

Minor flaws? Can you please try to respond to my first post in this thread? Puggo summarised it on this page as well.

I haven't had the pleasure of a prequel fan boys making any decent replies to that. Usually I just get ignored when I bring that up.

DuracellEnergizer said:

And btw in SWTOR a lot of Sith do not wear black, do not have pale skin, and actually some have purple and yellow lightsabres.

Well, that's nice. I just wish they were the rule rather than the exception.

If I think again, I might say that majority of the Sith in game do not wear black. I am not sure where you got this impression (I would assume from the there game trailers?).

DuracellEnergizer said:

And title "Darth" is held only by the most powerful Sith...

It's still stupid.

I must say I like it. Well it wasn't established solely by SWTOR. The first time I saw it was in KOTOR but probably even KOTOR picked it from some earlier EU source as well.

The main difference between OT and PT is that the former is an adventure while the later is a soap opera.

DuracellEnergizer said:

imperialscum said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.

In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.

Yuck.

Why prequels?

Because the concept that almost all Sith wear black, use only red lightsabers, have pale skin, have yellow eyes, have facial tattoos, and go around with "Darth" as a part of their names is a PT invention.

Vader in OT: wears black, red lightsabre, pale skin.

Palpatine in OT: wears black, pale skin.

And btw in SWTOR a lot of Sith do not wear black, do not have pale skin, and actually some have purple and yellow lightsabres. As for yellow eyes, they don't even exist as a part of darkside transformation of you character. Once you progress on the dark side level your character eyes change first change to orange and in the end to red. And title "Darth" is held only by the most powerful Sith...

Mrebo said:

It's useful if one really needs to make clear something is opinion or to express doubt about one's position on something (I think his car is blue), but in general it's an unnecessary disclaimer, I think. See how silly that is!

It isn't as silly as you think. Blue may be perceived differently between two human brains. What if my brain perceives the signal from the eye observing the same object (same wave length) as blue and while yours as what would be my brain perception of green. After all someone thought us by pointing on an object and saying "this is blue". So even if we perceive it differently in our brain, we have the same reference.

So saying "I think" and "In my opinion" is valid. :)

darklordoftech said:

imperialscum said: Why prequels? Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out. Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.

TOTJ and KOTOR connected the same dots much better. Both TOTJ and KOTOR explained that the influence of Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Revan, etc. caused the Sith to stop being red-skinned aliens.

On another note, when Lucas said that anybody can use The Force in 1981, it was in response to the question of whether or not Palpatine was ever a Jedi. The implication is that Palpatine isn't a Sith.

I am sorry but KOTOR did not connect any dots at all. In fact if we ignore SWTOR, it made very little sense as to why Revan, Malak and thier ex-republic fleet would even call themselves "Sith". If you think about it, it is quite dumb really. If anything, they should call themselves Rakata. SWTOR again tried to fix this huge plot hole that is usually completely overlooked.

It was SWTOR that properly explained as to why would humans who call themselves Sith, all the way down to Vader, personally hate the Republic and were constantly seeking for a revenge. That "revenge" made no sense prior to SWTOR.

As for "everyone can use the force", Palpatine was not in the context of that quote/discussion.

I admit I was reluctant to play SWTOR at the beginning but now if I am honest it is my favourite Star Wars game.

DuracellEnergizer said:

TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes.

In other words, they're watering down what was once a unique take on the Sith in order to mesh it with the prequels because the prequels are just oh-so-good and everything has to reflect it.

Yuck.

Why prequels? Although not said on screen, Vader and Palpatine were Sith in OT... long before the prequels came out. Then TOTJ made a story where Sith became red skinned aliens. Someone had to connect the dots then. TOR did it pretty well.

DuracellEnergizer said:

As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).

Well, I was going off of this picture.

And she's a Zabrak, not a human or Sith (as an aside, I have to say I love the purple lightsaber).

That is a promotional material. If you played the game you would quickly get the proper feel. Though the game allows to pick non-human and non-sith, it is purely to satisfy the players who demand customisation. It does not serve the story at all (maybe for Inquisitor storyline a little, but it pretty much opposes Warrior and Agent).

TheBoost said:

there is LOTS of great sets, model work, and masks/makeup in the PT that...

 ...that was ruined by the the extremely annoying main character, unappealing story revolving around that character, bad dialogue and lame concepts.

I don't see why people argue about CGI/models? CGI and lack of real sets have nothing to do with prequels being bad. It is the enjoyable characters, lame story and bad dialogue.

I play Star Wars video games that are pure CGI and yet they are far more enjoyable than prequels. There is nothing wrong with CGI.

darklordoftech said:

imperialscum said: I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.

The change in the genetic makeup of the Sith had already been explained by Exar Kun and Revan. TOR's Empire just complicates things further.

Well this might sound arrogant but I think SWTOR warped things up the best. I always felt that pre-KOTOR EU was kind of cheesy, especially in a visual sense (kind of referring to the TOTJ). I love how SWTOR used the good stuff from the established material and made it into something very enjoyable, for me of course.

DuracellEnergizer said:

imperialscum said:

darklordoftech said:

The TOR Sith, their Emperor, and their Empire. They undermine the movies, TOTJ, and even KOTOR.

 In what way?

The question is for Sith and Empire, not for the Emperor btw.

Though I haven't played the game, I can immediately recognize how TOR undermines TOTJ just by looking at screencaps and reading various synopses across the 'Net.

The Sith Empire in the game is supposed to be a reinvigorated remnant of the Sith Empire that appears in The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire storylines. The Sith in those stories, though, were biological Sith -- with red skin, pointed chins, simian facial features, etc. -- and weilded crystalline swords. But the Sith in TOR are just like the Sith depicted in post-PT storylines -- belonging to many different species, weilding red lightsabers, using the "Darth" title, etc, etc.

One's left wondering why the creators of TOR even bothered to tie their Sith directly to the Sith of the old Sith Empire if they weren't even going to adhere to how those Sith were originally depicted. 

I am not an expert of pre-KOTOR EU but I am pretty sure you are wrong about Sith being biologically pure Sith at the time of Naga Sadow. Sadow was a mix between original Sith and human... as almost all other Sith at that time. I am not sure about this again, but the EU story goes that some exiled Jedi mingled with them thousands of years before. All this was not established in TOR btw. TOR just followed it by simply saying that there were more humans in the Empire (workers, soldiers) than Sith and that the Sith genes were eventually outweighed, therefore majority of imperial look human at that time. So essentially all the imperial humans still have a percentage of Sith genes. What TOR tried to do was connecting all the previously established EU mess to somehow make sense.

As for Empire having many species, that is just wrong. TOR portrays the Empire extremely anti-alien (Sith are not counted as aliens of course).

Btw have you seen this Galactic History from the SWTOR website? If not you may go through them and see how they connected everything.