henzINNIT

Shaw all day. Luke is seeing his father, it’s jarring to have him look younger than Luke himself, jarring that Anakin doesn’t match the ghosts he’s with (clearly the age they were at their death), jarring that Hayden looks pasted into 20 year old footage, and jarring that Hayden kind of sinister in general.

Like most SE changes, it’s more distracting and pointless than it is worth.

Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.

The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.

The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.

I have contributed to the tangent so my bad if I have derailed things somewhat. I think it did originally tie in to this show, how the last duel in OWK ended, and whether Obi-Wan walking away after defeating Vader makes sense. I don’t believe it does, but that is no doubt influenced by my reading of Ben’s intentions in the OT. If I was to buy in to the notion that killing Vader is just not a jedi thing to do, the resolution in OWK works I guess, but that leaves me wondering if perhaps this was also the prefered outcome in Ben’s mind for ROTJ too: Luke messes up Vader’s suit, says ‘goodbye Darth’ and walks away with a moral victory, leaving Vader free to oppress the galaxy for another decade.

I find it hard to draw a line between any intentional criticisms of the jedi order and simple bad writing making them look inept. I don’t believe Anakin’s fall is supposed to be seen as a failure of the jedi, but that is an impression you can have as an unfortunate by-product of their weirder rules. The forbidden love angle confuses things, as does the jedi way of seperating young children from their family. Anakin has understandable attachment issues that seem to stem from being a human being while adhering to the code, but the films don’t acknowledge those factors for the most part. Anakin could have left the order, but it’s not as clean and simple as that when he has been raised from a young age in that system, surrounded only by others in it, actively discouraged from having meaningful relationships and therefore having nowhere else to go.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

It was the 1970’s. Beru got a couple of lines, which is pretty good for a female character in the OT ha.

RogueLeader said:

I think you’re right about ROTJ, and that kind of touches on what Dr. Dre also said.

I think in general Obi-Wan kind of comes off as sort of a jerk to Luke when they have their conversation. First, Obi-Wan pulls the whole “certain point of view” card, instead of just apologizing for lying to Luke.

It’s such a weird scene ha, probably my least favourite in the OT. It’s an obvious and understandable lie on Ben’s part, just cop to it old man. Watching later entries in the series try to justifiy and further explain it is always so awkward to me too.

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

Regarding the outcome of the duel in OWK, it looks dumb to me. The whole exchange is quite nice but walking away seems contradictory. If Obi-Wan finds some peace in knowing that Anakin is gone, and that Vader killed him, shouldn’t he find it easier to finish the job and kill the enemy? There is no conceivable way that leaving Vader alive would benefit anybody. I never really liked the resolution of their fight in ROTS, and how Obi-Wan just let his old friend burn instead of putting him out of his misery; but at least then he had reason to assume he would die from those injuries. Obviously the real reason in both cases is that Vader had to survive for later films, however they could have been staged differently to make Obi-Wan’s decisions look less questionable.

Ava G. said:

I prefer Rey Nobody. It means the Force ‘chose’ a nobody as its new avatar, outside the Skywalker or Palpatine bloodlines. Force power is hereditary, but sometimes it manifests very powerfully in unexpected families. Similar to magic in Harry Potter. There’s something beautiful about that idea.

I think if I could change only one thing in the trilogy, it’d be this. Not only do I prefer it too, but walking Rey’s parentage back was just so jarring and damaging to the integrity of the story.

MalaStrana#2 said:

henzINNIT said:

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I see the consequences of an interesting YouTube video… you confuse the script quality and the final movie. Also reaching the « simplicity » of ANH is incredibly difficult : just see how complex OWK is. Complex and badly written. ANH has 2 action scenes in its first 30 minutes, introduces all its protagonists, establishes a complete universe with its rules and its story with what is clearly at stake (again compare with OWK: when does this show even try to create stakes others that the fact the audience knows Leia and Luke are kinda important in LATER movies?). You even get long sequences without dialogues and you get to follow two characters where none of which is even human. Simplicity here is the consequence of hard work, of multiple rewrites, of research, etc. OWK looks like a first draft that went in production as-is…

SW wasn’t saved through editing : editing made it better. So was the music, the clever casting choices, the special effects, etc. It’s a miracle. Which could only exist because it has the solid roots of an amazing script that EVERY screenwriter does study.

I can’t believe on this forum that we need to explain why ANH is a tremendous script 😅

I don’t get what you’re arguing here. I’ve never said ANH is comparable to OBK in terms of script. The latter clearly has many issues that I am not defending.

The ANH script had everything it needed to be the film it became. I’m not slating it or the film. It also had a bunch of crap in it. Hard work across the board made the FILM work. The rough cut that more closely resembled the shooting script was described as an unmitigated disaster. I didn’t hear this in a ‘youtube video’, it was in the DVD documentary. The deleted scenes exist. It was edited to perfection.

I’ve recently debated with someone who swears that Obi-Wan didn’t intend for Luke to kill Vader in RotJ because it’s not the jedi way. I was floored honestly.

Servii said:

“Star Wars was always poorly written” is an argument I really take issue with. If the original film were poorly written, none of us would even be here with our attachment to this franchise.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Star Wars even at its best is simple, a little corny, has some funky dialogue etc. But there is a massive difference between that and something plain stupid and nonsensical, which occurs in Star Wars at its worst. It’s a lazy defense in many cases, and everyone’s tolerances will vary.

BedeHistory731 said:
Speaking of esoteric scripts, I wish somebody adapted Dan Aykroyd’s original Ghostbusters script into a graphic novel. The bits we do know about it sound batshit crazy (in a good way) and I’d love to see the whole thing presented to the public with appropriate visuals.

I’m one of like, fifteen people who like Nothing But Trouble so I’d love any crazy Dan Aykroyd project.

I’d love to see Ghostbusters: Full Aykroyd.

MalaStrana#2 said:

FrederikOlsen said:
It’s never been a particularly well-written franchise, IMO.

ANH is considered one of the best scripts ever written. It’s still being studied in film school for ts achievements, thanks to Lucas rewitting it to perfect it numberous times. TESB is simply the continuation of this high quality standard rooted in the foundation of a perfect script. Only what came after wasn’t as good and was sometimes even quite terrible, such as this tv show.

The original Star Wars was saved in editing by cutting great chunks out of that script.

I wish something could be done about episode 9. It’s awful. I’d have to say no though. Much like Lucas changing the OT, I wouldn’t abide the inevitable changes made to 7 & 8 in order to make them work better with what came later. These retro-active alterations always seem to be inflicted on the wrong films, making better stuff worse to fall in line with lesser material.

If you’re planning to keep some amount of ‘the Jedi have lost their way’ as it appears in the PT, then Yoda could already be distanced from the Order because of this. I’d have him already isolated somewhere, personally. Mentioned but unseen until Empire.

I’ve long felt that episodes 1-3 should do all they can to preserve the secrets and twists of the original trilogy. It’s the only way to make watching them in numerical order satisfying. Some bits would be harder than others, but I think it would be worth it. Belated Media did a PT rewrite series that had some nice ideas in this vein.

It’s so weird that I liked ‘Duel of the Fates’ as much as I did because Trevorrow has absolutely sucked at making Jurassic Park films. For better or worse, I would have preferred to see his take over another Abrams film. Ultimately though, there was a lot in that original script that worked and should have been carried forward. The worst part of TROS is the script, and it’s unusual to not only think there were better choices to make, but to KNOW earlier versions had some good ideas that were dropped in favour of less interesting ones.

adywan said:

But the biggest problem is the ever increasing bond between Obi & Leia. The more they progress with this, the more she is a heartless bitch in ANH. That guy risked everything for her and she had this close bond. But she doesn’t even react when he is trapped and about to die in ANH? Yet the boy who has known him for 5 minutes reacts the opposite way? Wow. that calls her character into question. This should never have been Leia in this story. There is no peril because we know who survives.

Honestly it doesn’t ruin Leia for me as much as it undermines the original film and makes it look more like Leia’s perspective wasn’t taken into account. It makes me think back to this meme:

https://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/leia-comforts-luke.jpeg

Which is already kind of silly when you think about it. But now it’s even crazier cause she was apparently closer to Ben than Luke was also.

haraldo23 said:

henzINNIT said:

Obi-Wan knowing Anakin took the name Vader doesn’t mean he knew that Vader survived past their fight in episode 3 though, right? The fair assumption would be that the guy you left chopped up and on fire did in fact die from those injuries. Isn’t that the surprising information, and not that Anakin changed his name? I haven’t seen it, but that’s the impression I got.

If you had been set to write an Obi show and had gone back and refreshed yourself on the canon - scenes and dialogue made in both PT and OT - would you have written Obi as unaware?

You’ll think I’m just being contrarian, but yes, I would have written have written Ben as unaware. He needs to believe he was successful in ROTS, otherwise it calls into question why he hasn’t done anything about Vader in the intervening years. More importantly, if you’re writing something in this gap, you would want to show him finding out the truth as it is good drama. I’m sure there is a bunch of stuff I’d do differently, but this particular thing seems pretty logical.

Obi-Wan knowing Anakin took the name Vader doesn’t mean he knew that Vader survived past their fight in episode 3 though, right? The fair assumption would be that the guy you left chopped up and on fire did in fact die from those injuries. Isn’t that the surprising information, and not that Anakin changed his name? I haven’t seen it, but that’s the impression I got.

Before Snoke was turned into a pickled puppet, I figured that his monsterous scarring was from losing a duel with Luke. Either before Kylo’s turn or possibly even after, like perhaps after the temple was destroyed, Luke found Snoke and ‘killed’ him, and Luke’s exile was in part because he felt dangerously close to turning dark himself.

The ‘other’ hope not being a new character is a bummer. There is a general feeling of running out of steam in ROTJ, evident in a few areas. One not mentioned yet is that the locations aren’t as imaginative or distinctive as they could be. A lot of revisited places, and the main new planet is just the woods. Still a lot to like in Jedi but it was a step down in many respects.

I find the whole ‘Qui-Gon would have saved Anakin’s soul’ theory so bizarre. Not even doubting that it was the intention, but it is just stupid regardless. Anakin was raised by a group of emotion-repressing monks, an organization that instantly declared him dangerous but took him on anyway, after separating the boy from his only family and apparently doing nothing to help her despite knowing she was a slave. Anakin’s problems wouldn’t have been magically solved by a slightly nicer monk. Likewise, it’s ridiculous to say he needed a father-figure. Perhaps he needed his mother.

Anakin wasn’t a nobody. Not by the time the PT was made. He was a virgin birth, a space jesus. That also retro-actively altered the perception of Luke too. That was dumb.

I lurked that forum a little bit. A strange echo chamber that place. It’s funny how different the common accepted opinion is in different corners of the internet.

I like 5 Star Wars films, the 5 with V in the titles/numbering. It’s like poetry, yada yada. I am certain I wouldn’t have liked Lucas’ ST any more than Disney’s attempts. He just wasn’t that good a film-maker to me, and was (understandably) too close to the series to let other people execute and build on his ideas. Sucks that Disney had no vision at all, but I also can’t blame them for binning whatever scraps Lucas left behind. Didn’t sound too good to me, and as nice as it might have been to develop Leia further, that ship had long sailed by the time Disney got the rights.

For the criticisms I have with Disney’s Star Wars, their movies have mostly looked great. Much better than the MCU films, which are somehow constantly drab despite the colourful things happening on screen.