Cutting to Jimmy Smits with a “well, fuck” expression during the Alderaan explosion sounds so ridiculous I wish it had been in a Special Edition.
I guess if I had my druthers, I’d do one of the following:
- Recast the lead characters and film Zahn’s trilogy as the ST. (Sebastian Stan as Luke, Millie Bobbie Brown as Leia,
That’s like a 22 year age-gap between the Twins. That would be weird as hell.
Surprise, surprise…
Upcoming Rey ‘Star Wars’ Movie Delayed Indefinitely
https://www.worldofreel.com/blog/2024/1/15/io4tuslm6h62bptffpsahtp9b356rz
Never heard of this source before
This is awesome. Takes me back to an innocent time haha.
[Spartacus01 said:]Also, the chronological order is the order George Lucas told us to watch the movies, and there is a reason for that.
George Lucas would say that; but the PT (as with most prequels) are informed by the films that came first. They communicate with the audience based on things they already know, beyond the obvious twists from the OT that are spoiled. I get why people watch them chronilogically but dear lord I would never reccommend it. With all due respect to Lucas, he doesn’t even want us watching the films that made him and the series.
As I haven’t done it apparently, I shall jump on the pile too
The ones I like:
The rest:
Some great criticism presented in mostly funny ways. They’ve aged poorly in places but still hold up as solid video essays beyond the extreme character. RLM have really built a solid brand in the years since. I enjoy their reviews and Best Of The Worst series.
Probably paved the way for a lot of youtubers and long form video content. At the same time I think Plinkett inspired a bunch of dreadful imposters who do the act without the self-awareness. That is unfortunate.
Most impressive. That Vader/Ben duel shot is insane.
With Ahsoka’s nod to the Mortis gods, I was thinking about that place, and how cool a location it was for the final battle in that “Duel of the Fates” script. It’s one of many things I wish weren’t dropped in the process of making Episode 9. I had a brain wave though about incorporating the Father/Son/Daughter mythology into the script that could have made for an interesting resolution, as well as addressing some common complaints about the ST.
Instead of dragging Palpatine’s corpse back, use Anakin as the final ‘boss’. The confrontation on Mortis ends with Anakin Skywalker appearing to Rey and Kylo. Anakin has become the ‘Father’, intent on bringing balance to the force, and to achieve this he needs a Son (Kylo) and a Daughter (Rey). Both have been ‘destined’ to fulfill these positions and have felt the weight of external forces pulling them throughout their lives. Rey defies prophecy, choosing to leave and help the galaxy directly rather than watch from a distance.
As a visual spectacle that duel is still good fun for me. After a few watches, the actual ‘sword fighting’ felt apart, and that section of amped up Obi-Wan vs Maul got shorter and shorter ha.
Of all the revisionist takes of the PT that came up after Disney started crapping the bed, the way the twirly glow stick fights have been elevated kind of baffled me.
The Acolyte has long been my low-key most anticipated SW project. Headland is a more interesting hire than those out of the Mandalorian factory; and likewise the time period is more interesting than ‘right next to the OT’
… granted. Expectations are still low, but Andor was solid stuff so these can work out occassionally.
Not even the worst of TCW did the same irreversible damage to Star Wars that the prequels and Rise of Skywalker did.
Yeah probably wouldn’t argue with that. TCW doesn’t do much to alter anything significant, and is basically entirely supplementary. The lazy cowardice of TROS’s story ripples back through everything unfortunately.
TCW Anakin is great at points, when he got to be a kind of ruthlessly heroic character. He wouldn’t hesitate when a friend was in danger, which was an interesting way to foreshadow his eventual turn.
It seems pretty fair to me that Lucas doesn’t get much credit for ‘saving’ Anakin though. It would only be balancing out the ruining he did already. I’d have much preferred to just have a decent Anakin in the films, and not scattered throughout 7 seasons of a cartoon spin-off. TCW is fairly overrated by the fanbase too. The good stuff is remembered fondly, but there was LOADS of average to outright bad material too. It’s a worse hit rate than the movies.
It’s obvious that the TLJ audience score on RT was review bombed. You only have to look as far as other user voted scores to see that. It currently sits at 6.9 on IMDB.
I don’t understand the rejection of critics’ opinions in recent years. As bad as some can be, I’d still generally take the word of that group over a group of randoms. Even if the professional pool has been diluted, I don’t see how an audience score consisting entirely of less informed reviewers is a better option. For Rotten Tomatoes specifically, its flaws are obvious as long as you understand how the % is generated, but as a guide of general critic approval - the odds for finding something enjoyable - it functions just fine to me.
On Topic: Despite not enjoying TROS, I like Rey and Ridley’s performance as the character. I’m all for her returning. I hope she gets something good to do. If you’re not happy about it, there’s plenty of Star Wars to go around. You can just not watch this.
I too found Rogue One to be extremely mediocre, and Andor to be one of the blandest characters in an incredibly bland set of characters. Above all others, that film (and its popularity) demonstrates to me just how different peoples’ expectations of Star Wars can be. Suffice to say I really didn’t care about the spin-off prequel show to the spin-off prequel film when it was announced, and didn’t check it out til long after it was over and the praise kept piling up. Part of me thinks Disney/LFL didn’t care much either, as it seems like a rare case where a creator was left alone to tell their story.
I kind of want an Episode 9 one to complete the ST set but Mike doesn’t care like that anymore. Those Plinkett reviews were a lot of work and everything has changed so much since then. In depth complaints about Star Wars in general aren’t the same anymore.
My overall investment in current Star Wars is low enough that I don’t get in my feelings about it, but I can’t help but think that this show is one of those major missteps that will be mourned by fans in the future. When Disney bought the rights, one of the earliest and most common requests was ‘bring back Ewan as Obi-Wan’. He is a great actor and a great pick for that role, something that practically everyone agrees on regardless of their thoughts on the PT. It was a tremendous waste to have him return for this show, an opportunity that will forever be squandered.
It’s like how some fans feel about the original cast in the ST, though I would argue that at least in that situation there was advancing age as a factor which limited what could be done.
I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.
OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.
He considered it by turning on a very bright, loud energy weapon over him while he slept. Which is either really foolish, or shows it was premeditated. Why is he going in the middle of the night while he’s sleeping anyway? Why not just ask Ben about it or have a mind probe vision while he’s awake? What exactly was the mechanism of Snoke corrupting Ben from a bajillion miles away? What made him turn, and what did Luke know or not know about it? Why is there this very specific level of suspicion where he knew something about it but the moment he knows more about it he needs to draw his weapon and not use it?
There’s so much about that moment that was completely unexplained or just nonsensical. And that’s if you even like the idea of the story.
How on earth does the volume and brightness of Luke’s lightsaber prove something is premeditated? We see clearly the process, handily narrated by Luke to boot. He is overwhelmed by the darkness in Ben, reaches for his weapon, and by the time he ignites the blade the emotion has passed. It’s slowed down for the audience but it is still just a moment. Totally understandable considering how potent and vivid jedi visions have always been.
Luke suspected the worst about Ben. It had built over time. That’s why he looked into the kid’s mind while he slept. If you thought someone was a potential disaster, would you try to confirm it discreetly or just prod at him to see if he explodes? The ability to read someone’s mind is an ethical question mark. I don’t think Luke is 100% right to do what he did, and I don’t think he’s presented that way. Once again though, it’s an understandable decision to make for someone in that position. It’s interesting and tragic how Luke’s mind reading will inform Kylo’s own aggrassive mind probing later on.
What mechanism did you expect for Snoke’s contact with Ben? It was the force. We’ve seen how it allows people to sense things across the galaxy, and even communicate over distance. Snoke will later link Rey and Kylo’s minds with his power. He’s got game. And he worked on seducing Ben before Luke’s mistake ultimately triggered Ben to start killing. The classic Star Wars situation of a character acting on their vision of the future and unknowingly helping it come to pass.
I’d agree there’s some things unexplained but I’d disagree it’s nonsensical. I shall leave it here though. I draw the line at two seperate off topic debates in a thread, ha. We’re not going to agree, or break any new grounds of understanding.
I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.
OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.
Shaw all day. Luke is seeing his father, it’s jarring to have him look younger than Luke himself, jarring that Anakin doesn’t match the ghosts he’s with (clearly the age they were at their death), jarring that Hayden looks pasted into 20 year old footage, and jarring that Hayden kind of sinister in general.
Like most SE changes, it’s more distracting and pointless than it is worth.
Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.
Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:
Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.
Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.
Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.
I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.
I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.
The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.
They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.
Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.
They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.
They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.
When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.
If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.
Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.
The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.
The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.
I have contributed to the tangent so my bad if I have derailed things somewhat. I think it did originally tie in to this show, how the last duel in OWK ended, and whether Obi-Wan walking away after defeating Vader makes sense. I don’t believe it does, but that is no doubt influenced by my reading of Ben’s intentions in the OT. If I was to buy in to the notion that killing Vader is just not a jedi thing to do, the resolution in OWK works I guess, but that leaves me wondering if perhaps this was also the prefered outcome in Ben’s mind for ROTJ too: Luke messes up Vader’s suit, says ‘goodbye Darth’ and walks away with a moral victory, leaving Vader free to oppress the galaxy for another decade.
I find it hard to draw a line between any intentional criticisms of the jedi order and simple bad writing making them look inept. I don’t believe Anakin’s fall is supposed to be seen as a failure of the jedi, but that is an impression you can have as an unfortunate by-product of their weirder rules. The forbidden love angle confuses things, as does the jedi way of seperating young children from their family. Anakin has understandable attachment issues that seem to stem from being a human being while adhering to the code, but the films don’t acknowledge those factors for the most part. Anakin could have left the order, but it’s not as clean and simple as that when he has been raised from a young age in that system, surrounded only by others in it, actively discouraged from having meaningful relationships and therefore having nowhere else to go.
Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:
Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.
Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.
Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.
I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.
I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.
The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.
They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.
Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.
They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.
It was the 1970’s. Beru got a couple of lines, which is pretty good for a female character in the OT ha.