haljordan28

"You're looking at this from the perspective of being defensive because kids in the park with a broomstick are pretending to be Darth Maul instead of Luke, and that deeply bothers you."

thats hogwash

what bothers me is the OT  duels at least  had   a sense of realism to them  where the PT  was  nothing more than 2 hr long power ranger episodes.

ben knew  he was beaten with vader in front of him and the stormtroopers to the side.    obi wan told vader that if he got struck down he would become even more powerful.  ben did not want to become one with the force but he know if he got struck down he would be a force ghost and could help luke even more by being by his side at all times.

of course if this had been the prequels  ben would had just done  10 flips across the room and   spinned his saber aropund 5 times striking down all the stromtroopers on his way to the falcon.

OzoneSherrif said:

I wonder why in the ESB duel Vader remarks "impressive, most impressive" when all Luke did was a simple force jump. seriously that was impressive? what about all the commonplace force powers the Jedi flaunted all the time as depicted in the prequels? not a big deal.

of course building your own light saber will get you a "INDEED you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" out of Vader too.

vader saying you  are  indeed powerful had nothing to do with luke building his lightsaber. when luke was saying come with me  etc..etc   luke was using the force on vader. all you have to do is watch the scene. vader felt lukes strength.

dont get me wrong. there are actually some things I like aboyut the PT.  I like qui gon.  I like darth maul.  I feel they both should have lived   up till episode 3.    I did like the duel  from episode 1.  out of all 3  pt films I think  episode  1  was the most like the  ot.   when qui gon first encounters  maul on tattoine.  i think that saber duel looks like the OT duels .  while i hated the idea of a kid anakin  i felt there was still hope after episode 1  but after  episode 2 i knew the whole thing was lost.  episode 2 is the worst film ever made in my opinion.  for so many reasons.

not only  the screenplay  but the logic of it all.   padme  was trying to be  assinatied  and  mins later  she is standing out on an open balconey  in the middle of the city.  the  whole anakin jumping out of the speeder and falling 200 feet  and landing on the other speeder.  not to mentioned the way anakin just cries and whines and is disrespectful  to his master from the very first scene.  there is no way to get  attached to this character.  he is completely unlikeable.  it did nothing to touch on anything the whle back story was suppose to be about and then they cram 3 movies into one for episode 3.  its all one big mess.

here is the problem. you  are looking  at this all from the perspective of looking back on the OT duels AFTER  watching the PT films. You must look at the OT  duels before the PT came out.  No one thought the duels were WEAK or SLOW  or   not  flashy.  Sure we all thought the episode 5 and 6 duel was better than episode 4  but that had more to do with budget and time. the new hope duel looks no more slow than the  sword fights in sparatca  and other time period pieces.

after you  view the PT duels your view becomes bias  and you  have to make up reasons and excuses  for why the duels LOOK DIFFERENT.   they don't look different because  of  character flaws or traits they look different because  LUCAS  brought in a completely  different  style  of sword fighting and  trainer to teach the actors to use.  that would be like me  bringing in a guitar teacher like albert lee or james burton or brian  setzer to tech the   OT cast  to play country or rockabilly  and then bringing in  eddie van halen or slash or joe satriani  to teach the PT cast  rock or metal.   sure both  cast are playing guitar   but they are playing two different styles so they sound completly  different. n the movies case they LOOK  completly different because of this.

this  tarnishes peoples views of the OT  films especially young fans  who  grew up with the PT  films and have to look back on the OT and say such garbage  like vader was weak he was a machine  and  was hendered. vader was NOT weak  and has never been  weak. vader was the baddest guy in the galaxy  and he fought that way cause the screenplay was written for him to and the character was taught to that  way.

I am 36  and captsolo you need to watch star trek two the wrath of khan.  next o the empire strkes back its the best sci fi film ever made. great acting,.  great screenplay   great philosophy and drama.  the way empire is hearlded as the best  star wars   khan is  spoken of the same way in star trek circles.  it stands out  miles  above the rest. its almost not even a star trek film its so good.

captainsolo said:

The less times a lightsaber is activated onscreen, the better the movie.

I couldnt agree more.   try telling that to a JUNKQUEL fan  who gets a hard on  every time a lightsaber is lit up and  get a boner every time a jedi flips  30  times and twirls his saber in the air  for  10 mins for NO REASON what so ever. lol

alexrd  must  get off every time  he  sees a prequel haha

TheBoost said:

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

 

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

 

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

 

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

I don't think George Lucas NEEDED to say "I have an old man and a man in a big clunky suit of armor" because unless you didn't notice THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD. You have seen the movie, right?

Did you buy your "HAN SHOT FIRST" t-shirt one size to small, because it's apparently restricting blood flow to your brain.

OT choreographer Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer, but in case you didn't know, the lightsaber fights in the movie bears no resemblence to fencing. None at all. Rent "The Princess Bride" to see what that looks like (also by Bob Anderson).

Interesting that fights with Iron age short swords ("Gladiator") huge claymores ("Braveheart"), medieval longswords ("LOTR") and lazer-swords ("Star Wars") all look the same to you. This weakens your reputation as an expert in this field somewhat.

I'm no master swordsman, but the fighting in ROTJ looks passingly like Japanese (EDIT: That's in Asia FYI) kendo swordfighting at times, which interestingly enough is what Mark Hamill trained on. The movie fight also involves flying backflips and telekinesis, which admittedly aren't normally part of kendo.

As for us "so CALLED fans" v.s you "true fans," I'm guessing from your thought processes and typing that you're in junior high, so I've been a fan for about two decades longer than you. Show some respect junior.

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

sorry but you  are dead wrong.   I do have training in  sword play  and ROTJ  wqas  strictly fencing and europeon. when vader says  he would go after leia and luke lunges out and  you  see like and vader heading to the bridge     the stances  are  as clear to see as the nose on your face.  its pure fencing.europeon.  i dont care if you believe it or not. it makes no difference to me.

and as far as vader being machine in a new hoipe you  are proving your ignorance once again.  at the time  lucas had not decided if vader  was  human or  cyborg under  the costume.  he said  he  worried how people would react  to  either  way.  he did not make that call till episode 5.  perhaops you need to do some more research before trying to run your mouth and look like a know it all.

and alex  it is clear as day you  are a prequel fan  and defend that junk.shit  till the end. so I am not going to argue with you.  go watch jar jar  and go  watch   anakin and padme talk about  course sand and go watch the pathetic circus performance lightsaber duels.  abnd be sure to count all the razzie awards while you  are at it.  for worst picture.worst director. worst actor,  worst screenplay  etc..etc

now excuse me while i go take a shit and wipe my  azz with a prequel picture.  I mean JUNKQUEL picture  or piece of shit picture....ahh whop cares   it all  comesdown to the same thing.  prequel. haha

OzoneSherrif said:

Thing that irks me the most is when the prequel Jedi constantly twirl the lightsaber in one hand for no reason. i guess it's just fun

thats what I mean by  ninja crap.  you  find that same exact things in any martial arts film.

rebel mission to ord mantel  is better written and more thought out than all the prequels combined

TheBoost said:

haljordan28 said:

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

 

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

 

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

 

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

It also seems odd that you use evidence from the PT (Dooku and Yoda lightsabering) to discredit the OT claim that Obi was old and out of practice.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

thats all nonsense.

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

for the PT  lucas used asian based martial arts.  if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

you  really think whenb lucas filmed the new hope battle he said  im gonna make this battle look weak and later on ill make them look fancy and smooth  because ben is old man and vader is a cyborg. lol.

this is just more of lucas bs to try and explain his junkquels.

like i said yoda and dooku  and many others on the council were OLD.   grivious was a cyborg.....none oif that prevented them from jumping around like ninjas.  keep  trying to excuse the  garbage.  the bottom line is he changed it  and then gave a bullshit spin story to try and excuse   and in turn belittles the OT in the process.

vader was a bad ass in the OT> he wasent crippled  he wasent burdened by  being part machine.  he was a bad  ass period.  and he was viewed as such up till the PT now its hard to even look at vader and not laugh when you think abnout the little whinning  baby brat  under neath  who  was so dumb and stupid he was  brainwashed and be;ieved the most stupid of lies.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

Baronlando said:

Eh, not really any more. (Did you have a different name over there? It's all a haze of being called a prequel basher without ever actually bashing them and constantly trying to explain that a decent SW dvd really is less difficult than a Mars landing)

yes I went by superpowers,latverian, and boardrider.i got banned under each name for talking out against lucas and the PT

I  support your idea 100%  and will do anything and everything I can to assist in it.  Even if that means make a donation to get the site up and running.

I agree we should not just bitch like fan boys   and we should post nothing but FACTS   and no bias opinions.

Lets start by posting  actual interviews with lucas from the past    and then post  his recent ones  and prove him to be the lier he is and  make the world take notice this man is a lier  and does nothing but spin spin spin.

the people vs george lucas was a good  attemot to  take a jab at this man but its clear lucas used his influence to keep it from being widely  known.  other than hardcore internet fans  few people have heard of it.  I have not seen it at any blockbuster video.

savestarwars.com is a great idea for a website  and if constructed properly  and used to post  the truth I think it might get noticed.  there are many  people put there  once connected to starwars   whos words are respected...gary kurtz  and david prose among those names. they both have called lucas out  as a lier.

ChainsawAsh said:

haljordan28 said:

just another prequel fan in denial .  sorry if the truth hurts prequel lover.  but YES. everything  I just posted is fact  not my opinion

Wow.  You're kind of a dick, huh?

no, I just get sick and tired of prequel lovers doing anything and everything they can  which includes  bringing down the OT films and telling lies and defending lies told by lucas just  to try and not make their beloved prequels (JUNKQUELS)  not look like the pieces of shit that they are

hey whats going on baronlando?  long time no see.  Havent seen ya since my   tfn days.  you still posting over there with those clowns?if i recall you  and toche station  were about the only ones with any sense.    is go-mer still running amoke over there?  Has go-mer tonic ever  come to this board?

Anyone ever wonder why lucas changed the dueling styles from the OT way to the  PT way.

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

everything about the prequels is so  pathetic and fans of the PT   wonder why  we  real fans  of star wars who fight to defend it   feel this way?

ill never stop bashing the prequels  and ill never stop defending the  real editions of the OT. and i do quote  people like gary lurtz  and  marcia lucas  and  and many other peoiple you wont find mentioned at starwars.com because  these people hold on to the truth  and they tell the truth  cause we sure cant depend on lucas or lucasfilm to do it

and  pt fans  accuse me and others here of bashing lucas when we call him a lier.  sorry but  we just tell the truth and if many of you pt  fans would bother to research it  and dig up his old interviews  you would see    where he has lied. more times than I can count  but  you pt  fans are not interested in the truth.  you  want to ignore it and act like it never happend.  I and many others my age were lucky enough to grow up in that time perioed and we heard the truth and read the truth.   i bought every starlog mag i could   with star wars interviews growing up.  i held on to every word from lucas cause back then i worshiped the man as did many others here.  uo till he turned his back not only on us the fans but on star wars its self and pimped out the name  for  profit.  thats the only   satisfaction i get from the prequels is knowing lucas   ruined his legacy with them.

the people at theforce.net are not true  star wars fans in my opinion/.  they are a bunch of go-mer tonics  and they styand by    and   allow luicas to ruin the starwars  name and they not only  say nothing they defend it.  lucas could take a big shit in a bag and wrap it up and  title oit  star wars eisode  7   and  the ppl at  tdn would cheer it on and say  its lucas vision he can do what he wants and we love it.

on top of that they ban anyone who talks against lucas.     im glad i found a site like this where all points of view are welcome  evemn if its not a popular one.

Alexrd said:

haljordan28 said:

KURTZ  NEVER GOT  FIRED  MUCH LESS HALF  WAY THRUGH   EPISODE 5.   HE LEFT   AFTER EMPIRE.   HE  WANTED NOTHING TO DO  WITH THE DIRECTIO   LUCAS  WAS TAKING THINGS.  THE SAME WAY  LAWERNCE  KASDAN  WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PREQUELS   AFER LUCAS GAVE HIM AN OUTLINE OF IT.

 

EVERYONE   HATED THE DIRECTION LUCAS TOOK THING...HAMIL,  FORD,   KURTZ,  KASDAN....EVERYONE.  AND WE ALL SEE WHY  CAUSE WE ALL SEE THEW OUTCOME OF THE  PREQUELS AKA  JUNKQUELS

No.

just another prequel fan in denial .  sorry if the truth hurts prequel lover.  but YES. everything  I just posted is fact  not my opinion

KURTZ  NEVER GOT  FIRED  MUCH LESS HALF  WAY THRUGH   EPISODE 5.   HE LEFT   AFTER EMPIRE.   HE  WANTED NOTHING TO DO  WITH THE DIRECTIO   LUCAS  WAS TAKING THINGS.  THE SAME WAY  LAWERNCE  KASDAN  WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PREQUELS   AFER LUCAS GAVE HIM AN OUTLINE OF IT.

EVERYONE   HATED THE DIRECTION LUCAS TOOK THING...HAMIL,  FORD,   KURTZ,  KASDAN....EVERYONE.  AND WE ALL SEE WHY  CAUSE WE ALL SEE THEW OUTCOME OF THE  PREQUELS AKA  JUNKQUELS

IGNFF: From your personal experience, how would you compare the George you worked with on American Graffiti to the George you worked with towards the end of The Empire Strikes Back?

KURTZ: It was quite different, actually. He was very different. I think the most unfortunate thing that happened was the fact that Indiana Jones came along, and Raiders of the Lost Ark had come out in between. George and I had many, many discussions about that, but it boiled down to the fact that he became convinced that all the audience was interested in was the roller-coaster ride, and so the story and the script didn't matter anymore.

Now Raiders is not a bad film, but the script actually was much better than the finished film. There were a lot more nuances in the character, and there was less action. It would've been a better picture if that script had been made. But, as it is, it's an interesting and entertaining film – it's just that this idea that somehow the energy doesn't have to be put into getting really good story elements together. One of the arguments that I had with George about Empire was the fact that he felt in the end, he said, we could have made just as much money if the film hadn't been quite so good, and you hadn't spent so much time. And I said, "But it was worth it!"

GNFF: Now, also the story has arisen that George had always intended prequels, but had never intended sequels to that initial three films.

KURTZ: After this idea of more films came up, he did several interviews where he said he had story material to do nine films – three prequels and three sequels. That was the accepted story, basically, and there was quite a bit of material both before and after the Star Wars lump. So there was no decision to do either one... it was kind of a red herring in a way, because there was no immediate thought to make any other films right away. In a sense, through a business point of view, it probably would have been better to do so, like they did with Star Trek, rather than wait all this time, because the audience interest dissipated somewhat. I mean, it didn't seem to affect the box office on Phantom Menace too much, but ...

IGNFF: It didn't exactly leave a good taste in people's mouths, either.

KURTZ: Well, regardless of the value of the film as a film, artistically, there is a kind of energy around some things where if it had come out say three, four years later after Jedi, and then another one three or four years later after that, that kind of cycle would have probably been better for the audience and for the merchandising than what happened. But that's hindsight. At that time, he always said that he had enough material for three earlier films and three later films, to make a total of nine, and there were outlined materials certainly for a later three that culminated with this big clash with the Emperor in Episode IX. So, we'll never see any of those, based on what he's said now.

IGNFF: Well what were the original outlines for the prequels? Since they can be compared and contrasted now that the first one's out there, and the second one's soon to be out there. Were there major differences from what you saw, from the original outlines of prequel ideas?

KURTZ: Well a lot of the prequel ideas were very, very vague. It's really difficult to say. I can't remember much about that at all, except dealing with the Clone Wars and the formation of the Jedi Knights in the first place – that was supposed to be one of the keys of Episode I, was going to be how the Jedi Knights came to be. But all of those notes were abandoned completely. One of the reasons Jedi came out the way it did was because the story outline of how Jedi was going to be seemed to get tossed out, and one of the reasons I was really unhappy was the fact that all of the carefully constructed story structure of characters and things that we did in Empire was going to carry over into Jedi. The resolution of that film was going to be quite bittersweet, with Han Solo being killed, and the princess having to take over as queen of what remained of her people, leaving everybody else. In effect, Luke was left on his own. None of that happened, of course.

IGNFF: So it would have been less of a fairy-tale ending?

KURTZ: Much, much less. It would have been quite sad, and poignant and upbeat at the same time, because they would have won a battle. But the idea of another attack on another Death Star wasn't there at all ... it was a rehash of Star Wars, with better visual effects. And there were no Ewoks ... it was just entirely different. It was much more adult and straightforward, the story. This idea that the roller-coaster ride was all the audience was interested in, and the story doesn't have to be very adult or interesting, seemed to come up because of what happened with Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Indiana Jones films – and the fact that that seemed to make a lot of money and it didn't matter whether there was a really good story or not – that wasn't what this kind of film was about. We had serious differences about a lot of that.

IGNFF: Well it's ironic to me ... I was talking to somebody who has a lot of good friends at ILM, especially in the conceptual department, and he said that George has basically a new catch phrase in the development process. His new catch phrase is "It's good enough," and they say he uses it all the time now. When you're talking about that idea of only going to a certain depth because the audience only wants the quick and easy impact, and then move along.... That somehow the audience isn't observant, so why should we be overly detailed... it's just fascinating to compare that with the observations you made.

IGNFF: When you talk about the development of Star Wars and the transition in tone through Empire and Return of the Jedi and now eventually what happened with Episode I, do you think that George's storytelling became more simplistic, or less mature? How would you characterize the elements that you saw emerging with the difficulties that were happening towards the end of Empire and what eventually led to Return of the Jedi?

KURTZ: I think it became simpler. You don't need complicated interpersonal relationships, you don't need difficult dramatic structures for this kind of story. Empire, in a way, is a typical second act of a three-act play. It's the problem act – everybody has problems, everybody has difficulties that they're trying to get out of, and usually the end of the second act is you're leaving everybody in deep shit. And, in a sense, Empire does that. Luke's hand is cut off, and Han Solo is frozen and he's off somewhere – all of the key elements are left unresolved. It's very rare that you see a feature film that ends that way and is satisfactory.

We were a bit afraid of that whole concept. Knowing that there was going to be a third film obviously helped, but still – that wasn't going to be for another three years, so the idea of presenting this to an audience and having them accept it was a scary proposition. I had never done it before. It seemed to work, though. It seemed to work quite well. The audience was very satisfied, and anticipated the next part. I think part of the reason that they were satisfied was because they were satisfied with the characters themselves. The characters seemed believable in the story.

Star Wars, the first film, is very much a comic book story. It's a very archetypal standard story about a hero coming of age and engaging with the world and trying to right some wrongs – and all of those things worked very, very effectively – but the dialogue is fairly pedestrian as far as movies go, and the adventure is carried along by interesting side bars and some of the individual effects... and the fact that it's kind of a rollercoaster ride in a sense, with very, very archetypal energy, so that you can associate with the key character elements very, very easily.

There's a lot of undercurrent in Star Wars that, if you take it on the surface, a four-year-old can really enjoy it – but there's a lot else going on, under there. In that sense it's multi-layered, and Empire is as well. That's the thing that bothered me a bit about Jedi and certainly about Episode I, is that those layers, those subtexts – they're all gone. They're not there. You accept what's there on the screen – it either works for you as a surface adventure, or it doesn't. But that's all there is. There's nothing to ponder.

IGNFF: No depth.

KURTZ: There's no depth in it. And that's where I think the mistake is. And I'm sorry that it happened that way, because the potential for a lot of that is great – it could have had a lot of depth, without damaging the surface story. The sign of a good movie is one that can work on very, very many levels and, depending on your mood when you go to see it, you can see those, or not, as you want. But it doesn't interfere with your entertainment of it.

IGNFF: How did you observe that change in George, because obviously he was the one who guided it towards that lack of depth...

KURTZ: Well, I think that he felt Empire was an ordeal for him – using his own money, it went over budget and over schedule a bit. Kershner was slow, we had some problems with Mark Hamill who had an injury – typical movie stuff, really. But even though it did cost a little more than was budgeted, there was no way it was ever going to lose money. He really didn't have to worry too much about it – the combination of the merchandising and the distribution would never be a problem.

IGNFF: It was never George's intention to direct Empire?

KURTZ: No, no. After Star Wars, he didn't really want to direct the others. I think he was unhappy that I – I'm the one that recommended Kershner, and had worked with him before. I think he was a good choice for Empire, I think he worked really well, but he wasn't the kind of director... George, I think, had in the back of his mind that the director was a sort of stand-in – that he could phone him up every night and tell him what to do and kind of direct vicariously over the telephone. That never happened. Kershner's not that kind of director, and even when George showed up a couple of times on the set, he found that it wasn't easy to maneuver Kershner into doing what he would have done.

So, on Jedi, he was determined to find a director who was easy to control, basically, and he did. And that was the result, basically – the film was sort of one that George might have directed if he had directed it himself... but maybe not, because it goes through so many interim bits, that if he had directed it probably would have been quite different.

IGNFF: For better or worse?

KURTZ: I think probably for better. But, I don't know, because as I said, he had gotten into this mode of saying that the audience is interested in the rollercoaster ride and that he could make just as much money, and it doesn't have to be complicated, doesn't have to have as difficult a story. There are a lot of other people who do that all the time – that's they're kind of movie making philosophy, the sort of Jerry Bruckheimer approach to movies. A lot of Hollywood movies have been based on the idea that the story is the subtext of the action, so that's certainly nothing new. But it's not very satisfying, I don't think, personally. But, you can make a lot of money, and if that's what you want to do, then you do it that way.

IGNFF: How did the arguments between you and George escalate during Empire?

KURTZ: It was just a matter of trying to get done and he, I suppose, wasn't very good at delegating. Sometimes he would want to control everything, and then other times he would go away and you wouldn't hear from him for a long time. It was difficult to fathom kind of how he approached all that, and he comes out of school doing everything himself – the documentary school where he wrote and directed and shot and edited all by himself, and there's certain feature films you can make that way, and others you can't. He had a good eye, and he's a very good editor, and the films that he directed for the most part have a good visual sense.

With story material, some of the characters were complicated, and the scripts work well. He seemed to work best as a collaborative writer, where other writers came in and had some say in adding certain things so you'd get a variety of point of view, like Willard and Gloria Huyck on American Graffiti. The Huycks also did a polished last draft on Star Wars to add some humor and some edginess to some certain bits, and I think it helped a lot.

IGNFF: Would you say that George tends to be a cold writer, as far as emotional warmth or character depth – we were talking about this as far as American Graffiti, that everything tended to be somewhat sterile as far as George's original drafts of that film.

KURTZ: I think that's probably the case. The other writers tended to add extra elements, especially emotional elements. George tends to write about the facts, in effect.

IGNFF: Very documentarian.

KURTZ: Yes, because that's his background.

IGNFF: At what point did you decide to divorce yourself from the Star Wars process?

KURTZ: Well, it was just the difficulties of finishing Empire, and the fact that – at the very beginning with American Graffiti and with Star Wars, and into the start of Empire – it was a very, very small shop... there were four or five of us in the office, and that was it. Then, in the middle of Empire, we were here in England shooting and George was back in San Francisco working with ILM on visual effects and other things, too. He hired some film people from other companies and started to expand into a much bigger operation... some marketing people, and some merchandising, and people to negotiate in some of the toy deals... and by the end of Empire, it turned into kind of this big organization. Not big necessarily in terms of actual physical numbers – there weren't that many people – but there were enough, and it was an entirely different attitude about everything. That was part of it, and also the fact that I think he blamed me for all the things that were difficult on Empire – a director that was difficult to control, a film that was too expensive, and all those things.

IGNFF: Do you think that he felt he'd outgrown the need for a set of controls... A "no-man"?

KURTZ: I don't know. I don't think we ever talked about it in those terms, but I think that he did chafe a bit under the idea of someone saying "that's not a good idea," some of the time. At the very end of Empire ... we decided at the very last minute – we pretty much locked the picture in the mix and just getting ready to make 70mm prints – and we decided that there had to an extra shot at the very end, to identify this rebel fleet.

If you remember how the end works, it's before you go into the medical department, who are working on Mark's hand. It's the establishing shot of the fleet, and we had a shot already of going into the window and showing Mark inside, and we just decided that it was confusing We didn't know exactly how that was sorted out, so we wanted a long shot at the beginning, and then one at the end that shows the whole fleet when the Falcon flies off. They weren't very difficult to do, and all the ships were there ... just pile up the composites, and they were rushed through, just to get it done. Very last minute. One of them wasn't particularly good, and George said, "Oh well, maybe we should just let it go."

I said, "It's worth at least one more go through. One bad shot can ruin the whole movie, basically." Which I really believe is true, and it just wasn't very good. It was just a compositing problem, had nothing to do with the individual shot elements – I can't even remember what shot it was, now. I think making a movie wears everybody down. You have to be really careful of the decisions you make at the very end, because you can kind of throw a monkey wrench in, very easily.

IGNFF: Just to get it out the door?

KURTZ: Yeah, just to get it done. So, I really don't want to criticize any way of making movies – anybody makes a decision about what they want to make, and they make it, and it goes out there, and the audience is there or it isn't. You can argue for years about the Pauline Kael approach, about whether movies are art or commerce or how much intellectual content you have. One of the things I remember Pauline Kael said quite clearly is that, "The young filmmakers of the '70s mostly didn't have anything to say. They were good technicians and they knew all the tricks, but they didn't have any passions, like some of the filmmakers in the '20s, '30s and '40s did."

Now, whether that's true or not – I don't generally believe in vague generalizations – but, there is a certain amount of truth to that, because a lot of films that have come out since the '70s have been quite shallow. Good looking films, but not much to say. Maybe that's part of the problem, the filmmakers haven't lived enough. Their entire experience is based on old movies, rather than life. As such, they're referential all the time – referential to old movies rather than to life experience. So I suppose the only answer to that is material that isn't that way, material that's written by novelists or screenwriters that have a substantial amount of real life experience and have interesting things to say about various topics.

Anyway, as it relates to Star Wars, the key is that the original Star Wars, and to a great extent Empire, resonated with the audience because there seemed to be something there that appealed to them. Saying something to them that they may not have even noticed – it was subconscious and they wanted to see it, they wanted to be immersed in that experience, to be able to see it several times.

That's one of the reasons the films were so popular. If you think about the fact that Star Wars came out so long ago, when ticket prices were that much cheaper, the reason it made as much money as it did is because people went back to see it many times. There are some infamous stories about people seeing it about two or three hundred times. I'm not sure if that's true or not...

GNFF: You're the person to ask about this – when you're talking about these kind of special editions and changes and are they due to an original vision or changing sensibilities – I have to ask you about your thoughts regarding the infamous redo of the scene with Greedo in the cantina.... the whole shooting first thing.

KURTZ: Yeah, I really was livid about that one. I think it was a total – it ruins the scene, basically. The scene was never intended that way. Han Solo realized that Greedo was out to get him and he had to blast him first or he would lose his life. It shows you how much of a mercenary he is. That's what the point of the scene was. And so the way they've changed it around, it loses the whole impact of that whole aspect of it.

IGNFF: Do you think that's due to George's changing sensibilities as opposed to his argument that, "No, that was my original intention"?

KURTZ: Well, he can say that was his original intention, but we could have shot it that way very easily. There was no reason that it couldn't have been shot that way. It was shot and edited the way it was because that's the way the script was. That's what he wanted at the time.

IGNFF: What is your opinion of why he would try and rationalize it, when he could very well just say, "You know, I just thought nowadays, it's better if he shoots first."

KURTZ: Maybe he just didn't want to say that. Maybe he felt it was a stronger argument to say, "That's what I really wanted to do and I just didn't have time or inclination at the time." You listen to all these directors, they all say that. That's the stock argument ... somehow if they say that, you can't argue with them.

I never  said  Lucas did not write it.I said before Lucas changed it.  Gary Kurtz said   it  was about that time that Lucas ideas and direction changed from what he and kurtz planed to do with the frnachise and  lucas got more motivated   by selling toys  and mass appeal    and he rewrote  return of the jedi completly  from what  they had originally planed for it.  if you want a link to the gary kurtz interview ill post it.  as isaid  lucas wrote that script  but that is before he changed everything

hERE IS A   BIT OF THE SCRIPT  titled   revised rough  draft revenge of the jedi  june 12 1981

13. INT. TATOOINE INN

["In the rough draft Luke is asleep and struggling with thoughts of Vader and the dark side. Yoda and Ben are also present in the dream, and Luke berates Ben for not telling him that Vader is his father. Yoda explains that he'll soon be joining Ben in the Netherworld, and therefore he'll become stronger and will be better able to help Luke. Vader's voice reappears, and Luke awakens." -L. Bouzerau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 241.]

Luke snaps awake from a sound sleep, his head still ringing with Vader’s words. It takes a moment for him to focus on his surroundings. He is in a small rundown, tavern. Two vile, little dirty Jawas; ATETU and TWEETU, stare at him from across the room. They shake their cloak-covered heads and go back to cooking an odorous stew.

The howling wind outside blows the door open with a loud crash. Luke reaches for his pistol, the Jawas hide. Out of the dust cloud emerge two familiar shapes, SEE THREEPIO and ARTOO DETOO. Luke relaxes as the angry Jawas come out of hiding, scolding the robots for not closing the door. Atetu waddles to the door and strains against the wind to close it.

84. VADER’S PRIVATE CHAMBER – STAR DESTROYER

The door to the private chamber slides open, and the Dark Lord of the Sith storms into the room. His voice echoes through the chamber.

VADER
Jerjerrod!

JERJERROD
(V.O.)
It is not necessary to shout, my old friend.

VADER
What is the Emperor doing with my son…

JERJERROD
My Lord Vader, the Emperor does not have to answer to you… besides, I don’t believe he has your son. Where did you come by this piece of erroneous information?

VADER
He’s been seen at the palace…and that’s where I’m going!

JERJERROD
The Emperor would prefer you didn’t…you would go against his wishes. The Rebel attack is about to begin. You are truly fearless, my old friend.

Vader lifts the Grand Moff by the neck and begins to lift him off the ground with one hand; Jerjerrod gasps for air and struggles to free himself from the Dark Lord’s iron grip.

VADER
You are not my friend, bureaucrat. I will go to the palace, but you will not live to see it. I no longer wish to be annoyed by your simpering ways.

JERJERROD
The Emperor will destroy you for this.

Vader snaps the man’s neck, and he drops to the floor in a heap.

VADER
I think not…your importance has been greatly exaggerated.

Vader exits the room, and the door slams shut behind him.

85. EXT. SPACE – REBEL FLEET

BEN
Yoda will always be with you.

Luke looks up to see the shimmering image of BEN KENOBI.

LUKE
Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me?

The ghost of Ben Kenobi approaches him through the swamp.

LUKE
You told me Vader betrayed
and murdered my father.

BEN
You father was seduced by the dark
side of the Force. He ceased to be
Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader.
When that happened, the good man
who was your father was destroyed.
So what I have told you was true...
from a certain point of view.

LUKE (turning away, derisive)
A certain point of view!

BEN
Luke, you're going to find that many
of the truths we cling to depend greatly
on our own point of view.

Luke is unresponsive. Ben studies him in silence for a moment.

BEN
I don't blame you for being angry.
If I was wrong in what I did, it
certainly wouldn't have been for the first time.
You see, what happened to your
father was my fault.

Ben pauses sadly.

BEN
Anakin was a good friend.

Luke turns with interest at this. As Ben speaks, Luke settles on a stump, mesmerized. Artoo comes over to offer his comforting presence.

BEN
When I first knew him, your father
was already a great pilot. But I was
amazed how strongly the Force was with him.
I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.
I thought that I could instruct him just
as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
My pride has had terrible
consequences for the galaxy.

Luke is entranced.

LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
I also thought he could be turned
back to the good side. It couldn't be done.
He is more machine now than man.
Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
You cannot escape
your destiny.

LUKE
I tried to stop him once.
I couldn't do it.

BEN
Vader humbled you when first you
met him, Luke...but that experience was
part of your training. It taught you,
among other things, the value of
patience. Had you not been so impatient
to defeat Vader then, you could have
finished your training here with Yoda.
You would have been prepared.

LUKE
But I had to help my friends.

BEN (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them?
It was they who had to save you.
You achieved little by rushing back
prematurely, I fear.

LUKE
(with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader
was my father.

BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront
and then go beyond the dark side -
the side your father couldn't get past.
Impatience is the easiest door - for you,
like your father. Only, your father was seduced
by what he found on the other side of
the door, and you have held firm.
You're no longer so reckless now, Luke.
You are strong and patient. And now,
you must face Darth Vader again!

LUKE
I can't kill my own father.

BEN
Then the Emperor has already won.
You were our only hope.

LUKE
Yoda spoke of another.

BEN
The other he spoke of
is your twin sister.

LUKE
But I have no sister.

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when
you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did,
if Anakin were to have any offspring, they
would be a threat to him. That is the reason
why your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well.
Bury your feelings deep down, Luke.
They do you credit. But they
could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN
(continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know
your mother was pregnant. Your mother
and I knew he would find out eventually,
but we wanted to keep you both as safe
as possible, for as long as possible.
So I took you to live with my brother
Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took
Leia to live as the daughter of
Senator Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN
(attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born
and politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage...
no one knew she'd been adopted, of course.
But it was a title without real power,
since Alderaan had long been a democracy.
Even so, the family continued to be politically
powerful, and Leia, following in her foster
father's path, became a senator as well.
That's not all she became, of course...
she became the leader of her cell in the
Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity,
she was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact
me on Tatooine, if her
troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved
now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways
of the Jedi the way you have, Luke...
but the Force is strong with her,
as it is with all of your family.
There is no avoiding the battle.
You must face and destroy Vader!

88. HAD ABBADON – THE TOMB’S PRISON

Luke lies unconscious on a small island in the middle of a hot lava lake. A hot wind blows across his face and wakes him. He looks around at his hostile surroundings and suddenly becomes aware of another person sitting behind him. He turns on the intruder with Jedi speed. The shrouded figure doesn’t move or even look up.

LUKE
Ben…

Slowly, the hooded figure looks up, revealing his face. It is Ben Kenobi in the flesh.

BEN
I could no longer stay in the netherworld.

LUKE
But Yoda said…

BEN
…that I would become one with the Force and choose not to return to the material world? That your anger prevented me from…

LUKE
But I’m not angry…not anymore…I understand why you didn’t tell me about my father. I do.

BEN
I know. And I am here to help you destroy the Emperor, and…your father.

LUKE
I can’t.

Suddenly Yoda appears beside Ben.

YODA
You can and you will…I in the netherworld, and Obi-Wan at your side. Help you we will.

96. INT. MAIN HALLWAY TO THRONE ROOM

Vader’s footsteps echo through the vast, long hallway. The Royal Guards that line the walls watch him with great fear. Finally he reaches the massive doors that open on to the throne room. The two guards on either side of the doors move to block the Dark Lord.

1ST GUARD
I’m sorry Lord Vader, the Emperor does not wish…

Both of the guards are stopped in their tracks as they drop their weapons and grab for their throats in a vain attempt to breathe. They drop gasping to the floor as the giant doors slide open and the Dark Lord enters the Emperor’s chamber.

97. INT. THRONE ROOM – HAD ABBADON

Vader storms into the throne room and marches right up to where the Emperor is sitting. The Emperor slowly raises his head to stare at the Dark Lord.

VADER
Where is he?

EMPEROR
Safe…There is no need for you to worry. I will take good care of him…

VADER
It is for me to train my son…you must…

The Emperor raises his hand, and Vader’s breathing suddenly stops. The Dark Lord struggles at his controls, attempting to regain his air supply. He chokes.

EMPEROR
You forget yourself…Lord Vader. I will tolerate no more discussion on the subject. The boy is mine to train. Your place is with the fleet.

Vader collapses on the floor and the Emperor lowers his hand. Vader starts breathing again and rises to a kneeling position.

VADER
Forgive me, master.

EMPEROR
The Rebels will soon begin their attack. You must be ready for them. For now that I have all of them in one place, they will be crushed once and for all.

VADER
Yes, my master.

EMPEROR
Now take your leave, for I have your son to attend to.

Vader rises and exits the throne room, and the giant door slides closed behind him.

12. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Luke stands with a start and begins to look around. Ben slowly stands also.

LUKE
Did you feel that?

BEN
Yes. It’s the Emperor. He’s moving this way…

LUKE
…and so is my father.

BEN
He is following the Emperor. Yoda!

YODA’S VOICE
I am between them and the Force…cloud their minds, I will.

BEN
Luke, you must take them on one at a time. Together, they will destroy you…

The Emperor enters the cavern and looks across to the boiling lava lake. He sees Ben and is surprised.

EMPEROR
So you are not dead after all, Obi-Wan. I thought I felt your presence in the netherworld. So, you have returned. But you have failed…the boy is mine, and will soon embrace the Dark Side.

YODA
It is you who have failed, my old friend.

The Emperor turns around to see the shimmering image of Yoda standing before him.

EMPEROR
You!

YODA
Evil one, this will be the last day of your existence.

EMPEROR
Your presence in the netherworld can do me no harm. And neither can this boy or this old man.

YODA
Your fear is strong…overestimate your abilities, you do.

Vader steps out of the shadows and stands next to the Emperor.

VADER
My Master, they must be destroyed. Now it is too late to turn the boy.

Luke looks at his father, then reaches out and Vader’s lasersword leaps off the Dark Lord’s belt and into the young Jedi’s hand. Luke ignites the lasersword as the Emperor pulls a sword out of his sleeve and tosses it to Vader.

EMPEROR
Destroy them.

Vader’s sword ignites and he starts to move toward his son. Luke backs away.

120. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Vader brings his lasersword down hard on his son, but Luke is able to block his father’s blow. A quick sword exchange, and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange, and the Dark Lord recovers, pushing the young Jedi onto a small rock surrounded by the bubbling pool of lava. Ben and the Emperor watch from the far side of the cavern.

EMPEROR
He is every inch his father.

BEN
He is stronger than you imagine, and has many allies.

EMPEROR
Allies? If they are all as you, I have no concern. Once the boy has killed his father, I will have him destroy you…

BEN
Perhaps, but it will not save you. I have foreseen your death at the hands of Skywalker.

EMPEROR
But I have not, therefore it cannot be.

BEN
Unless you can no longer see…

Luke fights back with all of his strength and drives his father back across the tiny rocks. A crashing blow by Luke causes Vader to lose his balance and fall onto one of the small rock islands, his sword hand landing in the molten lava. His sword and part of his metal are melting away. Vader backs away from his son, expecting the death blow at any moment. But Luke hesitates as Ben and the Emperor watch.

EMPEROR
Finish it, boy! It is the power of the Dark Side that you feel…

Luke lowers his lasersword.

LUKE
I cannot. I will not turn to the Dark Side. I only fight in self-defense, not to do your Emperor’s bidding.

With that, Luke extinguishes the lasersword and tosses it to Ben.

LUKE
If he is to be destroyed, you must do it.

131. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Lord Vader struggles to stand as Ben prods the Emperor onto the same small island. Luke stands behind Ben and watches.

EMPEROR
You have become old and weak, Lord Vader. I will take care of this.

The Emperor turns his back on Vader and faces the old Jedi, raising his hands in the air, which causes lightning to strike at Ben.

LUKE
BEN, NO!

Luke leaps in front of his mentor, and raises his hand in defense. The bolts are deflected by an invisible shield. Wherever a bolt hits, the image of Yoda momentarily appears at the point of impact.

EMPEROR
Your Master in the netherworld cannot protect you for long. You will turn to me or die.

The lightning bolts become more intense, and Ben is knocked unconscious. Luke drops to his knees under the pressure.

EMPEROR
This is the power of the Dark Side that you deny. Your strength will never match it.

Luke struggles to remain conscious against the superior power of the Emperor.

LUKE
Yoda…

EMPEROR
Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!

The Emperor turns around to see Lord Vader flying at him. The lightning bolts around Luke disappear as Vader hits the Emperor, knocking them both into the fiery lake of lava. The hideous screams of the Emperor are soon muted. Luke struggles to his feet and stares at the spot where his enemy and his father disappeared into the cauldron of molten rock.

Ben puts his hand on the young Jedi’s shoulder.

BEN
It is in Yoda’s hands now.

["In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld and" in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force." -L. Bouzerau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.]

LUKE
He turned back to the good side.

BEN
Yes, he did.

I like them both. Mostly the original series and next gen.   As a whole star wars is better but star trek is great also.  Star trek two the wrath of khan os right up there with empire strikes back in terms of  a great  sequel.  Not quite as good but a close 2nd place.

Empire strikes back is perfect in every way. Funny how  the film Lucas had almost nothing to do with is hailed as the best starwars film and  voted the 2nd best sequel of all time    2nd only to the godfather  part 2  by the american motion picture institute.

Irvin kershner said lucas was on the set maybe 2 times during the entire filming and that Lucas gave him  free reign to do what he wanted. Gary Kurtz also said  that Lucas was a bit upset that  kershner  wasnot the type of director to let him phne in and give ideas  for him to follow and that is why he hired richerd  MQ to do return of the jedi. He said  for  episode 6  lucas would just call in and tell richered what to do  and in many ways  return of the jedi     basiclly was directed by lucas in that sense. that started the downhill spiral. kurtz said by that time lucas  changed his mind on the direction he wanted to take the series  and that he  was more  forcused on selling toys  than making a quality film.  hence the ewoks and the 2nd death star..which  kurtz said was just a rehash of  a new hope  with better special effects.

Has anyone here ever read the original script for return of the jedi before lucas changed it? its really good.much better than the final take.  Obi wan and yoda and Luke fight the emperor and darth vader.

One example is this. and feel free to  respond to this if you think you  can defend the pts portrayl of it. According to Lucas the story of star wars is the rise and fall of anakin skywalker.

Lucas said all  through the  early and mid 80s that the back story  was about anakin skywalker and how he was this great jedi knight  who was the hero of the clone wars and friends with ben kenobi  who had a tragic fall from grace  and was seduced by the dark side of the force and when you  listened to bi wan  telling luke about anakin in episode  4 and 6 and you  see how powerful and strong vader is its  easy to imagine and  vision anakin young and him and ben being great friends and fighting side by side in the clone wars  etc..etc  and where the PT films  droped the ball  was showing  anakins rise  and then his fall.

We never got to see  this great jedi knight  who was such good friends with obi wan and  was the hero of the clone wars  and reached these great heights.  From the very first scene with anakin in episode 2 he is being disrespectful to his master and he is being a smart  ass.   He is rude and nasty to everyone. He goes on violent killing sprees an hr after we  first see his charcter. Even if you did not know he was to become darth vader  the average person would be looking at this guy and saying "what an ass hole"  You have to have a rise before you can have a fall.

Now if  we would have been presented with an anakin skywalker that would have been like qui gon jinn or luke skywalker or  maximus in gladiator or  mel gibsion in braveheart...characters  that  we grew attached to and looked up  to  and admiried  and  then  slowly  start to see  him through no fault of his own get seducded by the dark side of the force then  we would have   felt  sad. we would have had an emotional attachment to the charcter of anakin skywalker.  and then when  anakin redemmed himself at the end of return of the jedi  we would have stood up  and cheered and said  "our hero is back"  cause we would have remembered anakin for what he was before he got seducded by the dark side...remeber what he was...a great hero and jedi knight...a  great friend to obi wan  a   jedi who was looked up to and admiried by his peers.   but  we didnt get any of that.    we got a teen age smart mouth little punk.

to get emotionally attached to a character you have top first LIKE HIM and respect him and admire him.  just like the heroes  I mentioned above.  Remember how you  felt when spock died? or when maximus died?  or when william wallace   died? or even when qui gon died?we liked these   characters.  we  had an emotional attachment to them. the same as we SHOULD have had with anakin.  this was the  PRIME PLOT ELEMENT of not just the prequels but all 6 star wars films.  the RISE AND FALL OF ANAKIN SKYWALKER.   there was no rise.  he was  a damaged flawed   rude disrespectful character  from  scene one.

is this so hard for prequel fans to understand?   lets not even get into  his rasons for  going to the dark side. he turns to the dark side on purpose. because he thinks it will  allow him to save padme because of a bad dream.  where before in the 80s lucas always said  anakin  was seducded  to the dark side through no fault of his own.  like a person who tries drugs.  they try it and then they become seducded by it because it is too powerful for them to handle or control. in the original return of the jedi script   ben tells luke  that "as a part of a jedis training he must confront and then  move past the dark side of the force and that anakin  when he confronted the dark side  became seduced by it because he thought he was strong enough to control it and in the end as with drugs it was too powerful for him to controland it took him over"  hence when vader would always go around saying  "if you only knew the power of the dark side"

to add insult to injury  when  anakin turns to the dark side  not because he was seduced  but because he thought he could  gain something by it  he is then told by palpatine  that he really doesnt even know how to  save peoples lives but he thinks they could learn how to.  dont you think anakin would be a little pissed off.  that he turned on everyone he knew since a  child and murdered kids  cause thisguy said he knew how to do something and then after he does it    he finds out    the guy was lying lol...

and this is the worst part of all....he does it cause he thinks he can save padmes life...hmmm ddidnt he just find out that the guy who has been trying to murder  his wife is the  same guy promising him to  teach him how to  save her life?  hmm maybe its just me  but i would have a hard time trusting someone to save my  wifes life who has been trying to MURDER HER for years.

so prequel  fans please go right ahead and  defend this to me  and tell me how I and so many others are wrong for being upset at all this.

Any time either of you two want to sit down and truly debate   the merits of the pt films vs why I and so many others here view the PT films as junk then I am more than willing to debate it with you and remain civil while doing so.

And you ask why would I want the  sequel films to touch on things that the pt films touched on such as the jedi council and the republic  etc..etc   Well it is not that the idea outline of the prequels  were terrible. Such as those story arcs  it was the screenplays and the acting and the plot holes that made the PT such bad films.

One example is this. and feel free to  respond to this if you think you  can defend the pts portrayl of it. According to Lucas the story of star wars is the rise and fall of anakin skywalker.

Lucas said all  through the  early and mid 80s that the back story  was about anakin skywalker and how he was this great jedi knight  who was the hero of the clone wars and friends with ben kenobi  who had a tragic fall from grace  and was seduced by the dark side of the force and when you  listened to bi wan  telling luke about anakin in episode  4 and 6 and you  see how powerful and strong vader is its  easy to imagine and  vision anakin young and him and ben being great friends and fighting side by side in the clone wars  etc..etc  and where the PT films  droped the ball  was showing  anakins rise  and then his fall.

We never got to see  this great jedi knight  who was such good friends with obi wan and  was the hero of the clone wars  and reached these great heights.  From the very first scene with anakin in episode 2 he is being disrespectful to his master and he is being a smart  ass.   He is rude and nasty to everyone. He goes on violent killing sprees an hr after we  first see his charcter. Even if you did not know he was to become darth vader  the average person would be looking at this guy and saying "what an ass hole"  You have to have a rise before you can have a fall.

Now if  we would have been presented with an anakin skywalker that would have been like qui gon jinn or luke skywalker or  maximus in gladiator or  mel gibsion in braveheart...characters  that  we grew attached to and looked up  to  and admiried  and  then  slowly  start to see  him through no fault of his own get seducded by the dark side of the force then  we would have   felt  sad. we would have had an emotional attachment to the charcter of anakin skywalker.  and then when  anakin redemmed himself at the end of return of the jedi  we would have stood up  and cheered and said  "our hero is back"  cause we would have remembered anakin for what he was before he got seducded by the dark side...remeber what he was...a great hero and jedi knight...a  great friend to obi wan  a   jedi who was looked up to and admiried by his peers.   but  we didnt get any of that.    we got a teen age smart mouth little punk.

to get emotionally attached to a character you have top first LIKE HIM and respect him and admire him.  just like the heroes  I mentioned above.  Remember how you  felt when spock died? or when maximus died?  or when william wallace   died? or even when qui gon died?we liked these   characters.  we  had an emotional attachment to them. the same as we SHOULD have had with anakin.  this was the  PRIME PLOT ELEMENT of not just the prequels but all 6 star wars films.  the RISE AND FALL OF ANAKIN SKYWALKER.   there was no rise.  he was  a damaged flawed   rude disrespectful character  from  scene one.

is this so hard for prequel fans to understand?   lets not even get into  his rasons for  going to the dark side. he turns to the dark side on purpose. because he thinks it will  allow him to save padme because of a bad dream.  where before in the 80s lucas always said  anakin  was seducded  to the dark side through no fault of his own.  like a person who tries drugs.  they try it and then they become seducded by it because it is too powerful for them to handle or control. in the original return of the jedi script   ben tells luke  that "as a part of a jedis training he must confront and then  move past the dark side of the force and that anakin  when he confronted the dark side  became seduced by it because he thought he was strong enough to control it and in the end as with drugs it was too powerful for him to controland it took him over"  hence when vader would always go around saying  "if you only knew the power of the dark side"

to add insult to injury  when  anakin turns to the dark side  not because he was seduced  but because he thought he could  gain something by it  he is then told by palpatine  that he really doesnt even know how to  save peoples lives but he thinks they could learn how to.  dont you think anakin would be a little pissed off.  that he turned on everyone he knew since a  child and murdered kids  cause thisguy said he knew how to do something and then after he does it    he finds out    the guy was lying lol...

and this is the worst part of all....he does it cause he thinks he can save padmes life...hmmm ddidnt he just find out that the guy who has been trying to murder  his wife is the  same guy promising him to  teach him how to  save her life?  hmm maybe its just me  but i would have a hard time trusting someone to save my  wifes life who has been trying to MURDER HER for years.

so prequel  fans please go right ahead and  defend this to me  and tell me how I and so many others are wrong for being upset at all this.