hairy_hen

The edits for the 5.1 mix are nearly finished. Only a few small changes left to make, and then listening tests to check for any errors. These might have been completed already, but I went to Tucson for the weekend to help out at the studio, which delayed me somewhat.

I should be completely finished by next week if nothing else occurs to slow me down. As with ESB, this new 5.1 will be a somewhat subtle yet quite significant improvement over the previous version. I’m certainly pleased with how it sounds at this point.

Speaking as someone who thought TFA was not so good, this thread is a disaster.

I would rather watch its participants performing anal acrobatics for two hours than read another word of it. Are you guys trying to be as ridiculous as possible on purpose, or can you really not help yourselves? If the former, then I congratulate you on the extremely convincing performance by all involved.

Let’s go bother Snape!

I like the part where he stopped moving.

I think the laserdiscs are capable of sounding better overall, due to coming from the master tapes. They have less generation loss and also less noise, as well as more headroom before distortion, but they do have their own issues due to being made with 1980’s era digital equipment.

I remember hearing a sample of the SW mono mix that Team -1 posted a while back: I thought it sounded simultaneously both better and worse than the existing version. Better, with greater clarity due to significantly less generation loss; but worse, because of additional distortion in the background not present in the Belbucus track. It’s been a while, so I’d have to hear the current version of what -1 have to make any kind of further pronouncements.

All right, folks, the stereo mix for RotJ is completely done. I made a total of 26 edits to get it into a usable condition: patching over 12 reel changes, 2 laserdisc side breaks, and 3 other spots where sync is lost (possibly because of 2:3 cadence errors in the video); as well as 8 dropouts and 1 fairly severe instance of tape distortion.

That’s in addition to matching the level and EQ of the different sources to each other . . . It added up to kind of a lot of work, due to the necessity of listening closely to so many small details repeatedly; but it was definitely worth it, because this track sounds brilliant now. I hadn’t listened to it in years, since I’d mostly just been hearing the 1993 version lately. The 1983 mix is great, in some ways better than the '93, despite being less powerful. If the 70mm version sounded like the '83 stereo but with better dynamics, then I really wish we had a copy of it, because that would definitely be the ultimate version.

I’m now getting the Bluray LFE lined up with the GOUT, and from there it’s just a matter of setting the levels for the bass effects to blend in. Shouldn’t take too long, hopefully. Doing this in Pro Tools is so much easier than it was before, that’s for sure!

I would be interested in doing cleanup work on the 35mm audio.

From what I’ve heard of it, the main issues are crackling and popping due to damage at reel changes, as well as excessive noise throughout. I believe I’d be able to do something about both of these issues. I would also gain-match the audio so that the dialog sits at the same reference level it would have originally been mixed at.

I would need to have the audio at 24-bit resolution, with a sampling rate of at least 48 kHz. A higher rate might offer some advantages for the cleanup processing, although it would not contain any more detail within the audible frequency range. (Anything over 96 kHz is probably a waste.)

Let me know if you guys are interested in collaborating on this. I wouldn’t be able to start right away, since I’m currently working on the tracks for RotJ Despecialized 2.0, but I can get going after that is finished.

That’s probably what it is. The default soundtrack is dynamic as all heck, so the loud sections can easily overload smaller sound systems, such as TV speakers.

Try switching to track 2, which is the 35mm stereo mix, and see if it still happens. Since the dynamic range of this mix is reduced compared to track 1, it should all come through cleanly, without distortion. Track 4, which is the 1985 version, should also work.

No, it isn’t.

What distortion are you referring to?

That’s great, I’m glad you liked it. Discrete 5.1 can sound really good, but I’ve heard some pretty stinky ones too. The fact that these tracks have such good spatial imaging is a testament to what a good job they did in mixing them back then, and also Jim Fosgate’s genius in coming up with the design for Prologic II.

Oh yeah, the 1997 DTS might not be the best source for LFE, since it is stored in the surround channels and mixed in with other stuff. The DVD and Bluray versions of ESB and RotJ are essentially the same as the '97 mixes aside from the things that got changed later, so using the Blurays is fine for that.

The only one where the '97 DTS might help is with the first movie, since the later remixes are totally different, and the '97 bass has a better tonal quality than the DVD/Bluray. However, it might be better to just get it by lowpass filtering the stereo PCM tracks of the 1997 mix, since all of the LFE bass seems to be in there, just at a low level. Since you’d have to do that to the DTS anyway, this way it would at least not have undergone any lossy compression, although it might require more editing to get it to fit.

The 1997 DTS isn’t really usable for this kind of project, because there are so many additions and changes that getting it to actually fit the original versions of the movies would be a pretty major undertaking. That’s not to say that it would be completely impossible, and I’ve given some thought to how it might be done, but I haven’t had the inclination to actually try it.

I’ve found it more beneficial to simply start with a version that was closer to the original mixes to begin with, and go from there. Sure, given the available sources it has to be an upmix and not discrete channels, and the surround effects are mono instead of having any left/right component—―but the 1993 versions actually have the most dynamic range and best overall sound quality of any version out there, including the special editions. With additional bass, they sound even more fantastic.

I sometimes have to remind myself of the distinction between ‘what I think sounds best’ and ‘what is most authentic to the original release’. Usually those two things are the same, but not always. If the 70mm mix of RotJ had ever been used as a source for a home video release, it would be simple just to use that and disregard everything else; but since it wasn’t, I have to decide which elements to use when I find differences. For Despecialized 3.0 I may end up doing all the 5.1 versions over again from scratch, which would allow for different techniques to be used and perhaps even greater efforts towards authenticity, but for now I just want this to be consistent with what I’ve put out for the other films already.

Anyway, the stereo mix for RotJ is nearly done, and mostly I just need to check if there are any more dropouts or distortions to fix that I haven’t spotted yet. After that it’s 5.1 time. When I said it would take me a few weeks to get these done, that was a deliberately conservative estimate, since I didn’t want to promise to have them done quickly and then not deliver. It’s going as quickly as possible without letting myself get sloppy, since I’d really like these to be in 2.0 if possible.

Hey guys, quick update from me about the soundtracks.

I was away from the forum for a over a month, due to being busy with recording projects, so I didn’t know that RotJ 2.0 was so close to completion until very recently. The last I’d heard before that, it was still a long way off. Because of that, I hadn’t started working on anything new until Chewtobacca asked me if I had new stuff ready. Fortunately, I have plenty of time now to work on them, and I’ve been making good progress in the past week.

I started with the 1983 stereo mix first, and it is completely matched to the GOUT in sync and in dialog level; I just need to fill in the gaps from missing frames at reel changes in order to complete it, as well as patching over a couple of dropouts and tape distortions. Most of it comes from the 1986 US laserdisc, with fixes taken from the 1989 Special Widescreen Edition. The SWE has the best-sounding equalization, but has also had its peak levels reduced with a brickwall limiter for some reason. The 1986 laserdisc sounds far too shrill due to its high frequency boost, but its dynamic range is fully intact. I was able to EQ the 1986 laserdisc to eliminate this shrillness, making it sound almost exactly the same as the SWE, minus the limiting. So now it has both the ideal tonal quality and the proper dynamics.

After I’ve finished with that I’ll set about making a new 5.1 version. As before, this will be mostly the 1993 mix with the addition of an LFE channel, this time taken from the Bluray instead of the DVD. I pretty much got the balance right the last time around, so this will mostly just be recreating my previous work in higher quality, with a few minor corrections.

In listening to the original stereo mix, I noticed several distinct differences from the 1993 version. Unlike the '93 mixes of SW and ESB, which were mostly derived from original master tapes, the '93 RotJ was a full-on remix from stems, so although there is no new content, it is not surprising that it would have a different balance between the various elements. The original stereo mix has more prominent music in some scenes, as well as some differences in panning and foley levels. I have not decided how much of this, if any, should be incorporated into the 5.1. My inclination is to leave most of them alone, since they are usually subtle, and the 1993 mix does sound very good, despite not being 100% authentic. Perhaps I will use the most noticeable differences only, and save the rest for some more in-depth version in the future (possibly to accompany Despecialized 3.0).

I aim to have this all done in the next few weeks. That’s all from me for now . . . I haven’t had time to look at the 2.0 workprint, so I guess I’ll wait to see the final result when it is actually released. I expect it’s going to be great. 😉

I thought the absurdly long and narrow repeated quotes from previous posts would have made that obvious.

Maybe it’s just the way my screen registers the new forum, I dunno.

Somebody post the skyscraper bunny, please . . .

The problems with the sound mix cannot be blamed on poor theater sound systems. I saw the movie in Dolby Atmos at the Ciné Capri, the best theater in Phoenix. I’ve heard things sound really good in there. This mix was not one of them.

I agree completely. The sound mix was flat and boring throughout. The music was completely lacking any low end or punch of any kind. The sound effects were dull and generic, aside from the ones that actually did manage to get re-used from the original films, which wasn’t all that many. The Millennium Falcon’s engine was authentic about 50% of the time, Han’s blaster was the right sound, and Ren doing his mind-reading thing sounded like when Vader chokes someone. Other than that, hardly anything sounded like itself. Whatever they’re doing to record and mix these tracks clearly isn’t working. It may be technically cleaner than the work from the 70’s and 80’s, but it isn’t nearly as interesting to listen to.

I’m inclined to blame Matthew Wood. Everything that guy touches turns to sh!t.

I was going to wait until next week to see the movie, both to avoid crowds at the theater and because the hype has become nauseatingly oversaturated, but I ended up going to an early show because I realized I’d never be able to avoid spoilers otherwise.

Now that I’ve had a day to think it over, my overall feeling is a resounding . . . meh.

There are parts of this film that looked a bit like Star Wars. There are parts of it that sounded a bit like Star Wars. There are even some parts that felt a bit like Star Wars. But the overall result? Not Star Wars. Not sure what it was, exactly, but Star Wars it surely was not.

In tone and execution, it had distinctly more in common with the Abrams-Trek films than with the original trilogy. It’s really a matter of style over substance. Oh, there were some good things in it, certainly. Rey was the best thing in the whole movie without a doubt. She was a great character, and whenever she wasn’t on screen, I wanted her to be back on it. Han was pretty good, too. And the ball droid surprised the heck out of me by not being an obnoxious piece of crap, as I’d been sure it would be. It was cute, without being overly cute.

But there, I’m sad to say, the good parts end. The plot was an incoherent mess, riffing on the original films while not actually managing to add up to anything on its own. The visual effects looked kind of stupid. This isn’t just a matter of their being models or CGI, since apparently both were used, but more to do with the way they moved and how they related to the camera. If you’ve ever watched Mike Verta’s video on the motion of the spaceships and the starfield backgrounds in the original film, you’ll know what I’m talking about. This just felt wrong, because I could never suspend my disbelief and feel like I was looking at anything that could have been really happening.

The other characters weren’t any good, either. Alien-sage lady was dumb. I went to the bathroom during that scene and came back while it was still going on, and could immediately tell I hadn’t missed anything worth seeing. Finn hyperventilated way too much and would have been better if he’d tried underplaying it sometimes. Kylo Ren (which incidentally is a stupid and terrible name) was only a half-decent villain while he kept his mask on. Once he took the mask off, it was all over. Any scariness or credibility he had went right out the window once his whiny prequel-Anakin true persona was revealed. I guess since prequel-Anakin is his grandfather, that makes some kind of twisted sense.

As far as Han’s death goes, well, seeing a favorite character bite the dust was pretty traumatic. I knew it was going to happen at least 20 minutes in advance, so when it actually did occur I just rolled my eyes and kind of tuned out for the rest of the film. But it certainly had its effect, since I was in a bad mood for the rest of the day. In doing this, the filmmakers committed the same cardinal sin as Karen Traviss in whatever EU book, when Jacen Solo turned evil and bumped off Mara Jade. In both cases, a son of Han Solo has turned evil for no real reason and tries to establish their ‘bad guy’ credentials by killing a favorite character. In both cases, said bad guy is just an obnoxious punk who could not possibly hope to be taken seriously as a villain in any other way. Ren isn’t a worthy bad guy in any sense; he’s just a pathetic Vader-wannabe with daddy issues——which we’re never even given a reason for. This scene only works in a vaguely superficial sense; when you stop and think about it, the whole thing falls apart.

What’s even worse is that the whole thing could have easily been prevented. Luke, apparently, has just been sitting around in Butt-F*** Egypt twiddling his balls, not doing a thing to help anyone. Had he been there, Han’s death need never have happened. The sheer obviousness of this plot contrivance really stood out and made me very angry to think about. So, I really have to hand it to them for doing something I thought was impossible: congratulations, JJ, you actually made me hate Luke Skywalker. Thanks a lot, you piece of trash.

On the technical side, the person who commented above and said the blasters often sounded wrong to them was spot on with this observation. Not only did they sound wrong, they were inconsistent. I had a sinking feeling when the Millennium Falcon’s turret lasers sounded absolutely nothing like how they did in the original films. Why is it that the Shadows of the Empire video game can get this right, but the guy who actually came up with the sound effects in the first place can’t? You’re losing it, Ben Burtt . . . oh wait, never mind, it must have been Matthew Wood’s fault. When in doubt, blame Matthew Wood. That’s always a good policy.

Oh, and that tri-bladed saber thing? Still as dumb as it was when they first showed it.

Like I said, I didn’t completely hate the movie. There are some good things in it, and I’ll see the others to finish the story. I might have liked it a bit more if it had no connection to Star Wars, and was instead some generic, unrelated movie. It will never replace the Thrawn books: those are always going to be the ‘real’ sequel trilogy to me. If you think of these new movies as just being some bizarre alternate universe rather than the true story, it’s easier to set them aside. As I’ve said before, the prequels, special editions, and sequel movies form the ‘official’ continuity; while the unaltered original films and Zahn books are what I consider the actual events. Besides, as long as the original versions of the OT are unreleased, everything else is just a cynical way to cash in on the name of Star Wars. None of it means a damn thing as long as they continue to be suppressed. Until then, it’s just a zombie franchise, nothing more.

So . . . really, the best thing you can say about this film is that it is better than the prequels. But then, that is the very definition of ‘damning with faint praise’.

I watched the first film a few weeks ago, to make up for the fact that I didn’t get to see it in a theatre in September like I thought I would, but I’m not going to watch the others, or do anything else that would involve thinking of TFA as being anything other than some new movie.

I have, however, been passing out copies of the Despecialized Editions in DVD form to everyone I know who is interested. Several of these people have never seen the originals, and others have not seen them for many years, and I believe this discrepancy must be rectified. I use my 70mm tracks for the audio, but in stereo form rather than 5.1 since no one I know has a 5.1 setup except me, and the 2.0 versions sound better on stereo systems. Everyone I’ve given them to has been extremely grateful, and they’ve all agreed that the originals are superior.

I took the advice to check the 'spleen, and what I found there is extremely interesting. I’m amazed hardly anyone here is talking about it: anyone even slightly interested in colour timing should download this immediately. The difference between the home video releases and the 35mm version of The Matrix is STAGGERING.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around what this looks like, and why the difference is so drastic. The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that this represents a very early version, and that the filmmakers must have changed their minds about its appearance before much time had passed. Other prints probably did have the familiar green that everyone remembers (albeit more subtle than the video releases have made it); but this one, at least, isn’t even close to that. It really has to be seen to be believed.

Check out various screenshots here: http://imgur.com/a/LcuQo

The VHS clip does look too blue, but if that is compensated for, it looks very much like what I saw on the old print.

I wonder when the red tint was introduced, and for what reason. Most new versions seem to consistently have it (it’s only a matter of degree), so it must have been a deliberate change. But why? Is it to give the scene a feeling of heat, due to the presence of fire? That’s the only thing I can really think of.

That fits with what I was saying earlier: the IMAX version I saw in the theater pretty much looked like that trailer. Like the old 35mm print, it did not have a red tint in the bar scene.

Before I saw the Bluray, I’d been under the impression that it would look the same as the IMAX, but clearly the Bluray had its own colour changes made that did not appear in the theatrical re-release (or at least, not the one I saw).

With all these myriad versions out there, it’s getting kind of confusing to keep track of where each one comes from, and why it looks the way it does. I’ve heard several times recently about DCP’s of various films that don’t look the same as their home video counterparts. Shortly after that IMAX screening, I saw a DCP of Raiders at a different theater that looked a lot more like the DVD colours, complete with heavy red tint in the bar. Its sound mix was also identical to the DVD, while the IMAX version seemed to be somewhat different. (I couldn’t tell if the IMAX mix was the same as the Bluray, since that place rather inexcusably didn’t have subwoofers running, and the LFE channel is the most obvious difference between the two. It probably was the same mix as the Bluray, though.)

Apparently home video transfers are done by entirely different people in different departments, and don’t necessarily have anything to do with what might end up showing in a theater. Even though they may come from the same transfer, they might end up looking entirely different. Which version’s colours were approved by Steven Spielberg—the IMAX, or the Bluray? Which one is overall closer to the film’s original appearance? Who knows . . .

I couldn't say whether those are exactly right or not in terms of small details, since the screening I went to was several years ago, but those are definitely on the right track overall.  Seeing them feels very familiar to me.

I got some sugar'd Coke in Flagstaff a few years ago.  It's a smoother, less biting sort of taste, although I'd need to try it again to give a clearer description.  I wouldn't call it a massive difference, though.

Even though Coke won't do it for whatever reason, Pepsi has been selling fairly large quantities of their product with real sugar recently.  There's a definite difference there: a distinct increase in perceived sweetness compared to the syrup'd version.  Sometimes I like that, but other times I don't.

I say the migration should happen right when the movie comes out, precisely so no one can discuss it.

All I can think of is that there are multiple versions floating around out there, because the one I saw defiinitely didn't look like the Bluray.  It looked like the 35mm print, which had no red tint in the bar scene at all.

Anyway, forget the Bluray, forget the IMAX; they don't matter—my point is that DrDre is on the right track with what he's doing for that scene, and I hope he continues with it.