hairy_hen

I saw a print of Raiders three years ago at an art theatre.  It was old and faded, but the essential look of the film came through clearly.  For the most part, the dvd version replicates the proper appearance pretty closely, though like Zombie84 said, it does emphasise the red side of things more.  Most of the time it's not an issue, but the bar fight scene in Nepal seems to have a large amount of red added to the lighting that was not on the film print.  I recently saw the THX 'Wow' demo and the shots from the bar scene look the way I remember them from the print, so there was definitely a change to the colour scheme of that scene for the dvd.

I am seriously jealous of Steve Hoffman for being able to see a 70mm Star Wars print just a couple years ago.  I wonder who owns it and how they've been able to hold on to it all this time.

lol  :p

I'm just a guy with a good audio memory and a keen interest in this sort of thing.  Haven't had any formal training in sound aside from taking music theory classes and doing some basic composing.  People keep telling me I should study sound production, so I guess I should stop being a lazy fool and get going with that.  ;)

Exactly right.  The other two films are not 70mm versions (since there are no in-theatre recordings to compare to) but are a bit more customised.  Relatively minor issues, and the vast majority of both soundtracks is still the DC mixes.

The LFE channels of both ESB and RotJ come from the 2004 dvd's.  Unlike Star Wars, the '04 mixes of these are for the most part exactly the same as the '97 versions--specific alterations to sound effects and dialogue appear here and there, but evidently they did not feel the need to do any other remixing aside from those instances.  I don't think there were any changes to the LFE in either one, and the 448 kbps bitrate of the dvd's as opposed to 384 on the laserdiscs should offer some measure of increase in fidelity, though it's hard to say how noticeable that actually is.  It is worth noting that both of them have stronger bass than Star Wars in several places.  I haven't been able to find much in the way of specific references to their original LFE content and how that might differ from the SE's, so I just went with what sounds right.  A lot of the time that meant no change at all, with relatively few instances of level adjustment being required.

Were you able to totally eliminate those phase cancellation issues that you mentioned? Were you able to remove the added-in LFE related to the CGI stuff added to the SE video (that is obviously not present in the GOUT video being used) and still keep it seamless (by maybe using bass from the 93 DC to make the sounds and SPL levels correct for those parts of those scenes)?

The cancellation is entirely corrected.  I'm not sure exactly what caused it, but I think the upmix must have inverted the phase of some parts of the main channels, so it was partially cancelling itself out when combined with its duplication in the LFE.  By inverting the LFE portion in those instances, it nows adds together the way it should, so what you hear is exactly what's in the '93 mix except more so.

Sometimes when there were CGI inserts with associated LFE content, I simply deleted them; the main channels of the original mix in those instances often didn't need bass reinforcement anyway.  Other times I kept them in but at a reduced level, or substituted a modified version of a bass effect from elsewhere in the movie.  Also, since the LFE of the '97 and '04 versions often differed from each other, I could pick and choose which was a better match in each case.

The most most obviously different were the Alderaan and Death Star explosions, since the strongest bass came from the added shockwaves.  By splitting the Alderaan apart and crossfading it back together at different levels, I was able to give stronger bass to the beginning of the explosion while reducing the altered section; while for the Death Star I ended up just increasing the start and then fading out before the part associated with the CGI.  There really wasn't much to be drawn from the '93 mix in either instance, because the main channel dynamics were given priority in that version, and its headroom would have been reduced had they included more than a small amount.

Nah, I just meant I was going to see about having the existing Jedi file re-uploaded at the same time I finished with Empire.  I should be done with that pretty soon I hope--got a bit distracted by unrelated things, but there's not much to do so I don't expect it will take very long to finish.

That sounds rather, er, complicated.  lol

The X0 pic of the Mos Eisley scene looked really good--somehow they blended the DC and JSC versions together for detail and got rid of all the smearing--but unfortunately it seems we'll not be seeing more of that.

Damn I always get tempted to play through Twilight Princess again when I see your beautiful avatar. ;)

Midna rules, doesn't she?  Kind of like a Zelda version of Mara Jade, I suppose you could say.  Rather a shock when she suddenly goes from cute-but-sinister demon/imp thing into full blown babe.  ;)  Poor Link, though, left holding the dust because she just had to be noble and break that damned mirror . . .

Continuing a discussion with Dunedain about the 70mm mix that began in dark_jedi's thread:

hairy_hen: Thanks for the info. :) Since the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack was derived from the real theatrical 70mm soundtrack, plus a few additional effects added, it makes sense to go to a previous theatrical stereo soundtrack (since there's currently no way to access the 70mm soundtrack) and replace those few spots where there were added sounds. And so 70mm "stereo soundtrack" is a good descriptive name for it, since that's what it is, the theatrical 70mm soundtrack down-mixed into stereo form by Lucasfilm for laserdisk.

What is the source for the 35mm stereo soundtrack, a laserdisk set released before the Definitive Collection came out?

The 35mm stereo mix was a high quality analog capture from a laserdisc release from the early 80's, I don't know which exact issue it was (Darth Mallwalker would probably know).  If I remember correctly it was the only laserdisc containing that mix that was not time-compressed.  Certain parts were replaced from the similar 1985 version when the sound quality suffered and when there were missing frames and so forth.  All the work on that was done by Belbucus a few years ago, and he was also responsible for giving us the 1993 Definitive Collection mixes and the mono mix restoration. Without his fantastic contributions to this forum, none of what I did would have been possible.

Note that the fidelity and dynamic range of the 35mm version do not equal that of the DC, and also that the stereo image is noticeably narrower.  Because of these discrepancies (particularly the imaging), there are some places where a completely seamless blend of the two sources could not be achieved, at least not with the level of skill I possess.  No doubt someone like Belbucus could improve upon it, but it's only a problem if you listen really closely.

In regards to the 1997 SE 5.1 laserdisk soundtrack. One would think that Lucasfilm would have made a more direct transfer of the 70mm theatrical soundtrack this time, since they had 5.1 channels to work with, instead of only 2 in the Definitive Collection. And other than alterations made specifically for the SE, the SE soundtrack should be very close to the 70mm theatrical soundtrack. And since it has discrete channels for all this, it should make for a very nice DD 5.1 soundtrack on DVD. So why not use the 1997 SE as the main source for a recreation of the original 70mm theatrical soundtrack and just replace portions of it with either the 93 DC soundtrack or the 35mm stereo soundtrack where needed to get rid of the 93 DC and 1997 SE soundtrack changes?

There was a time when I would have agreed that the 1997 SE mix would have made a great source for a 5.1 version of the original film.  Having heard it now, though, I've completely changed my mind about that--despite its use of discrete channels, the '97 version bears very little resemblance to the 70mm mix whatsoever, even in the parts where there are no added sound effects.  Level-matching the '97 and '93 versions to each other, it is immediately apparent that most of the time the dynamic range of the SE mix is at least 3 db lower.  In other words, with the average volume of the two coming out the same, the '93 consistently displays significantly higher peak volumes, giving it a much more powerful sound.  The EQ is entirely different also, with the SE putting more emphasis on the high frequencies.  Not necessarily a bad thing, though to my ear it makes it sound tinny in comparison to the more robust '93 version.  Perhaps relating to this EQ, every time C-3PO speaks, there is a huge amount of high frequency noise in the '97 mix--you can hear the noise in earlier versions, but nowhere near that level.  (This may have been one of the reasons they remixed the sound for the 2004 dvd; but in that case they went way too far in the other direction, completely killing the highs and pumping up the bass in the sound effects, giving the whole film a distorted, muffled, utterly nasty sound.)

From these kinds of differences, and also the fact that the music in the '97 is consistently more prominent throughout the film than it is in the '93 (I do like that aspect of it), it is quite plain that the SE 5.1 mix was made over again and not derived from the 70mm version at all.  On top of all that, there's the issue of the 70mm having a mono surround channel (reasonably well represented when upmixing the '93) and not the split surrounds featured in the special edition.  On several occasions the surround effects of the SE become far too loud in relation to the rest of the sound, calling undue attention to themselves; the 70mm by contrast is perfectly balanced in this respect.

Is the .1 LFE channel in the 1997 SE laserdisk set pretty close to what the bass channels in the 70mm theatrical soundtrack sounded like, based on available accounts, did you have to change it much to be more accurate to the 70mm theatrical version?

The LFE channel ended up being the one useable aspect--indeed the special editions are the only home video releases featuring 5.1 mixes, so the bass had to come from there.  I mentioned this a few posts up on the page, but I had to do a lot of tweaking to get it to a point of sounding like it actually belonged in the film as opposed to being clumsily pasted on top.  Several instances of needlessly loud bass in scenes that didn't warrant their inclusion had to be toned down or removed altogether.  Sometimes these overly loud booms came from added CGI shots, in which case even more trickery was sometimes required to integrate them, because the accompanying visuals and main channel sound effects were completely different.  Strangely, the iconic Star Destroyer flyby in the beginning did not remotely live up to the "thunderous low end" desired by the original mixers, requiring an enormous boost in volume to sound as powerful as it should.

Mostly I used the 1997 mix for the bass, since for all its defects it still recognisably sounds like Star Wars, and most of the time provided the best match.  There were times when I felt the 2004 LFE actually sounded a bit better, so occasionally those were used instead; and a few times neither SE version sounded right, so I ended up deriving the LFE from the existing bass in the 1993 mix.  In those cases I had to correct for unwanted phase cancellation with the main channels.  Quite a bit of work, really, but worth it, because the resulting 5.1 mix is really awesome.  The bass in particular ends up being kind of a 'best guess' on my part--I made it sound the way I think it should, taking into account everything I could find out about the original, and all my observations about the various mixes that have been done over the years.

The links to both the stereo and 5.1 versions are on the first page of the thread.  Empire and Jedi are upcoming--not 70mm recreations exactly, because the specifics of those aren't very well known, but they should be of a similar caliber in the overall sound.

Hope that answered all your questions, Dunedain.  ;)

I think a fair amount of people have sort of latched on to this project and expect it to be the 'ultimate' fan-created edition, the final say on the films until they are officially and legitimately restored.  It's important to remember that Star Wars is many things to many people, and that with so much variation in individual experiences and preferences, and considering the source materials available to work from, no single version is going to completely satisfy everyone.  Some people want more grain and less noise reduction.  Some people want their favourite audio mix to be included.  And some people want every single option and extra to be present all in one version.  But there must be some restraint of expectation, because otherwise dark_jedi's going to go crazy and still not everyone will be 100% happy.  So--to be reasonable, please!  :p

Specific technical questions about the video should be directed primarily to G-Force, since it is his AviSynth script processing that is being used.  There is a thread devoted to that topic already, though it is down on page 2 of the forum at the moment.  http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/GOUT-image-stabilization/topic/9038/

For my part, I'm happy to answer any questions about the audio.  Dunedain, I'm going to answer you and continue the 70mm discussion in its own thread also so I don't fill this one up too much--I do tend to go on at length sometimes.  lol

Edit--see here for the answer to Dunedain's questions about the 70mm mix compared to the SE: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-1977-70mm-sound-mix-recreation-stereo-and-51-versions-now-available/post/421106/#TopicPost421106

Dunedain said:

This 70mm stereo soundtrack sounds interesting, in that it's apparently just like the 93 Definitive Collection laserdisk soundtrack, but with no added sound effects. So it's an authentic theatrical soundtrack? What source was used to get this 70mm stereo soundtrack, is it complete? Does it sound as good as the Definitive Collection does (in terms of overall quality)?

I'll give a brief summary here, but you should read this thread for a much more detailed accounting: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-1977-70mm-sound-mix-recreation-stereo-and-51-versions-now-available/topic/11348/

The term 'stereo 70mm' is a bit misleading, I suppose, because it is not actually a theatrical sound mix--it is the 1993 Definitive Collection PCM track with certain sections replaced by the 35mm stereo mix, in order to remove the extra, unnecessary sound effects.  70mm prints of Star Wars never had stereo mixes, they all contained six-track discrete channel audio, which in today's terms could be called a 4.2 format.  That is to say, four full range channels (left, right, center, surround) with the remaining two devoted exclusively to bass content.  The '93 DC mix was created by downmixing the 70mm version into stereo, and then adding extra sound effects on top of it; hence the 'stereo 70mm' sounds more like the original, but not exactly as it was.

The 5.1 version comes significantly closer to the theatrical mix by adding a custom LFE channel, derived mainly from the 1997 special edition, but adjusted considerably for optimal integration into the rest of the audio.  The surround sound element can also be obtained from the stereo version by using a receiver with Prologic II or a similar upmixer, but the 5.1 is needed to hear the extra bass content, which by all accounts was a very important aspect of the way the film sounded back then.  Again, note that aside from the powerful bass, removal of extra sounds, and being pre-upmixed in software, the majority of it will sound exactly the same as the Definitive Collection mix.  It's about as close to the original as you can get short of a transfer of the real thing.

It would be really cool if something like this could be substituted into a cleaned up GOUT for the parts that had the worst DVNR smearing.  If the colour and contrast could be matched, it would surely improve what's currently available by quite a lot.

I just listened to the complete score over the course of two days.  It remains as excellent and amazing as ever.  Short of a real, properly done release from original master tapes, with none of that crap processing applied, this could well be the best the score will ever sound, and I enjoy listening to it much more than I ever did before due to the sheer excellence of the sound quality, which allows the music itself to come through unimpeded.

Question for ABC: I've been asked for links to the score, but I had to decline to give them since you had indicated you didn't want it to be released generally.  But now it seems like more people are obtaining it, so I was wondering if that still applied or if you had adopted a new view on releasing them.

It's tempting to want to include as many tracks as possible, but there comes a point when it's scarcely beneficial to keep putting in more mixes that differ from each other only in nearly inconsequential ways!  And of course, anyone who is sufficiently motivated could always make their own custom version muxing the processed video with the audio tracks of their choice; it's actually not that difficult, just a little time-consuming.

I don't have any plans to insert deleted music in ESB.  I was watching the Editdroid disc with the isolated score recently, and came to the realisation that most of the parts they cut were ultimately best removed.  That isn't a remark against the music, of course; the entire score is brilliantly composed.  There are a few things that I think might have been better left in, such as the dangerous low piano motif that marks the first appearance of the Imperial walkers, and the part when Han and Chewie find the probe droid, but those are only small matters.  None of them made me feel as strongly that their deletion was a mistake as did the RotJ cue I mentioned (the whole scene somehow falls flat without it).  A lot of the parts they cut out are somewhat loud and distracting, sometimes too triumphant--removing them makes the ominous cues that follow become that much more threatening.

Speaking specifically of Luke getting his lightsaber and seemingly defeating Vader in the carbon chamber: I saw a youtube video of the Dooku/Yoda duel in AotC that had that ESB cue inserted into it.  It was amazingly effective!  The powerful rendition of Yoda's theme brought the otherwise ridiculous scene up to a whole new level entirely, and it was just the right length, too.  I thought that was really interesting . . .

The music edits are relatively minor.  In my opinion making the edits is benificial to the films, but not everyone may agree.  The only change I made to RotJ is the insertion of the unused music from Luke and Obi-wan's conversation on Dagobah--I did that on a whim last year and kept it in because to me the scene feels like it's missing something without it.  In ESB, there are a few places where the score was originally hacked up and very choppily pasted back together for reasons unknown.  Perhaps recognising that these edits were detrimental, the special edition restored the cues to the way they were composed and recorded, and the 5.1 mix will include this corrected music.  Apart from that, everything will sound exactly as it always has.

Because these choices reflect my preferences and do not exactly represent any official mix, only the 5.1 versions will sound this way--the stereo mixes will be untouched originals.

The thing about the 1993 mixes is that for the most part they sound quite a bit better than the 35mm stereo versions, because they were made specifically with the goal of obtaining a powerful sound with unrestricted dynamic range, which they were able to achieve with digital PCM tracks on laserdisc but hadn't been possible in stereo before, due to the technical limitations of 35mm optical sound.  (All three films were made before the advent of Dolby SR, which increased the dynamic potential of analog 35mm sound by 3 decibels, though that still isn't as much increase as the '93 versions provide.)  Because of this pronounced dynamic superiority, I find them preferable in the overall quality of sound.

It is unfortunate that for Star Wars they could not leave well enough alone, deeming it unfathomably 'necessary' to add a bunch of extra sound effects on top of the existing 70mm transfer that was used.  Those awful, obnoxiously loud shattering glass sounds in particular really scream out "see, isn't this new improved remix so much better?"  It's telling that many of the same '93 additions also found their way into the special edition a few years later, along with many equally pointless new sounds.  One of the reasons I made the 70mm recreation was to be able to hear the film with all its dynamic power intact but with the extraneous sounds removed, along with restoring the LFE punch that had been missing since its original release.  I'm not knocking the 35's though; despite being limited they still sound good, and have the benefit of being entirely authentic.  ;)

Empire and Jedi fare better in the 1993 versions, since no extra sound effects were added.  Unlike Star Wars, though, they were not derived from their respective 70mm mixes--Empire came from an unlimited 4-track master conforming to the 35mm edit, and Jedi was more thoroughly remixed from the multi-track stems.  The fact that the snowspeeder crash sound in Empire is missing simply means that it was probably a last minute addition to the 35mm mix, and was not present in the earlier generation source used for the '93.  From that assumption, I believe it was probably missing from the 70mm mix also, though there's no way to be sure.  For what it's worth I'm probably going to put the snowspeeder sound into the 5.1, though I haven't decided whether to use the 35mm version or get the individual sound effect from the special edition.

In addition to individual preference, which mixes will sound best really depends what kind of audio equipment is being used.  If it is something without a lot of amplifier power, the dynamically limited 35mm mixes would be ideal, because they can be played without danger of peak distortion.  They are also suited to situations where very high volumes are not desirable.  For more capable stereo setups, the '93 mixes (and in that I include the stereo 70mm, since it is the '93 without the extra sounds) will provide greater satisfaction.  People with full home theatre setups will naturally want to select the 5.1 mixes, which in spirit (if not always in precise detail) come about as close to the power and overall feel of the 70mm theatrical releases as can be done with the source materials available.

If you like, I reckon I could write a description of this stuff (detailed yet concise) so that it could be included with the dvd's, to help minimise confusion about the audio for anyone who obtains them.

The isolated scores on the Classic Editions are the same as the ones on the Editdroid discs, but the sync on the Classic Editions is sometimes incorrect, most likely due to differing frame counts.

They also don't sound anywhere near as good as ABC's work, since they just used the SE versions.

I was toying with idea of synching ABC's tracks to the films to create new isolated scores, but that would not be for a while.  I'd rather have such a thing on its own disc rather than trying to squeeze more and more tracks onto a single dvd, anyway.

I was about to ask if you were able to get the whole thing downloaded--didn't see that you had edited the post until just now.  And . . . my day is now made.  :)  I'm really glad you liked it so much!

The level of surround is quite satisfying to me also--it isn't like The Incredibles or Batman Begins or an equally well made discrete 5.1 of that sort, but the Prologic II generation of upmixers really do a great job with matrix-encoded Dolby Surround tracks.  The mono surround effects speak up when called for, and the rear stereo ambience gives a wider and more immersive sense of space than listening in two channels.  (That's not to knock two channel, of course, because I've heard some truly impressive imaging from hifi stereo speakers, but my own system doesn't reach that level of excellence.)  Jim Fosgate described it best when he said that the ambience is of a sort that you don't always necessarily even notice until it's turned off, at which point you really miss it.

I'm really glad to hear that the LFE levels are just right.  I wrestled with them for quite a while, trying to bring them to a point where everything sounded as powerful as it should, but without being overwhelming.  The levels in the SE mixes were all over the place--sometimes there was absurdly loud bass in places that didn't warrant it at all, and at other times inexplicably subdued where it should have been much stronger.  The Star Destroyer was at such a low level I could barely hear it; I think even the '93 stereo had more bass than that!  But all I really had to go on was an interview with Mike Minkler where he described the mixers' desire to achieve a "thunderous low end" for the passby, causing Steve Katz to invent the idea of separate LFE channels; and the recollections of those who had seen the film in 70mm and had the memory of the scene imprinted on their minds.  Exactly what would have been considered 'thunderous' in 1977, when such bass effects hadn't been done before, wasn't exactly clear--it most likely wouldn't have been quite as strong as the sort of bass that frequently appears in films now, but what's in the SE versions couldn't possibly have been what they intended back then.  I'm still sort of afraid that hearing the 70mm mix would show that my best judgement of what sounded good wasn't an accurate reproduction of the real thing, but I really am happy with the way this version turned out.

The easiest place to hear it was in the silence between the Fox fanfare and the main title.  It can plainly be seen in the waveform as well as heard.  It sounds like the same kind of noise I used to get when recording things through a line out--a high noise floor is to be expected from non-hifi analog equipment.  It's not a particularly significant issue, I scarcely noticed it most of the time, but it's just a subtle thing going on in the background that was definitely not there when I switched to the '93 mix.  It would be easy enough to silence the section before the main title, and the rest of it could be left alone.  I wouldn't worry about it, just wanted to point it out is all.

I think you've done a great job with this d_j, it shouldn't take too much more work to finish it.  This whole thing has intrigued me enough to want to make my own attempt, but I don't want to detract from the work you've done by doing so.  :)

Ok, I just spent a good long while checking the ESB file.  For the most part it seems good, but it still needs a bit of work.  I haven't actually checked the whole film, but I went through enough of it to make informed observations.

I noticed the sound at the start that was already pointed out, but it would be relatively simple to replace that with silence.  Compared to the '93 mix, the very beginning of the Fox fanfare seems to be missing--no idea whether it was an error in capturing or if the laserdisc itself is like that.  It's only a small fragment of the music, but noticeable.

The synch varies with time as the movie goes along.  Sometimes it is very close, differing from the '93 mix by as little as 2 milliseconds, but often it lags behind by nearly 40 milliseconds, which is approximately equivalent to one frame of film.  As I suspected, the loss of synch often occurs around the reel change times that Darth Mallwalker posted.  I'm not sure exactly how much of a problem this actually is, practically speaking--some people may notice it, others may not.  I've only been comparing the audio tracks to each other, not with the video, so I can't comment on that directly.

There is one definite error that is in need of fixing, and this occurs at the break between sides 4 and 5 of the LD.  Side 4 ends just as the door to the carbon freeze chamber shuts behind Luke, with side 5 beginning as he is brought up into the room before he meets Vader.  There is a significant gap of silence, approximately 0.076 seconds in length, which creates a distracting jump cut in the sound.  This is probably not directly fixable from the laserdisc alone, due to missing frames around the side change.  To create a seamless bridge between the sides, another mix would have to be used to patch over this section.

If you are referring to the two ignition sounds when Luke reaches his lightsaber in the wampa cave, the 35mm mix has always sounded this way--it may be an error, but one on the part of the film mixers themselves if so.  The splashing sound in the Dagobah cave has likewise always been there.  Observations of improved ambience in the 35mm mix as compared to the '93 are explainable in two ways.  One, as has been stated, the dynamic limiting means that the quieter sounds are elevated, allowing them to be heard more prominently; a similar immersion can probably be achieved from the '93 if the gain is raised to bring the average volume to the same level (which will also make the much higher dynamic peaks of the '93 mix that much more noticeable).  Two, the EQ of the 35mm version is different, placing more emphasis on the higher frequencies, which lends itself to greater detection of small background sounds.  Ultimately I prefer the more robust EQ of the '93 version, but your mileage may vary.

I did notice that there is a fair amount of high frequency noise throughout the whole thing, most evident during quiet sections.  It sounds like tape hiss some of the time, but I think the analog equipment used to play and capture the audio from the laserdisc is the most likely culprit.  How much of an issue that is to d_j or to listeners, I don't know.

Been discussing this mix with Darth Mallwalker, and I'm going to compare it to a digital version from a later laserdisc release, to try to determine whether the same 35mm mix was always used before 1993 or whether it was remixed in 1985 as ANH was (I believe it was probably not remixed, but I haven't heard it yet).  It sounds like he's got a high quality capture setup, so I'm probably going to end up synching this myself based on his files and on the reel change times he indicated.  dark_jedi, would you prefer to wait for me to do that or use your own for the dvd?

Either way, I'm still doing the music-edited 5.1--just got a bit distracted from it.  :)

You can always do what I do, which is to use the power of Nihilism to negate the validity of the parts that suck.

Unfortunately, that means that you have to throw out about 98% of what's there, but that's the price that must be paid.

For me, the actual unmolested films are obviously of greatest importance, followed by the works of Brian Daley and Timothy Zahn.  Pretty much everything else I'm convinced had to have gestated in a dog's rectum, though how prone to digestive disturbance the dog was in each particular case does vary.

I also have some theories about where the Zahn-haters originated, but I'll refrain from mentioning those.

Gotcha.  ;)  I was away for a few days so this is the first chance I've had to listen to it.  Haven't even checked the synch, I was just listening to it on its own first.  As I suspected, it sounds very similar to the '93 mix most of the time, but there are some definite differences.  The snowspeeder crash sound is one we already knew about, but there are a few others also: when the Imperial walkers first open fire on the rebels in their trenches, the explosive sounds from the laser impacts are different in the '80 mix than in the '93; and about a minute or so later there is a snowspeeder laser blast and flyby that is significantly louder in the '80 (it's there in the '93, but much lower in volume).  Not especially important, I guess, but worth mentioning.  There may also be others I haven't found.

Since the '93 version comes from a source that is at least a generation older than the theatrical stereo mix, it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that a few more sound effects were added to their final mix that had not been there previously.  To me, this suggests that the elusive 70mm mix of Empire quite possibly did not contain these sound effects either, since it would have been done first.  If true, the mystery of the missing snowspeeder effect may at last be solved.  :)

I did notice a few distracting jump cuts here and there, but I couldn't tell whether they were actually part of the sound or if they came from synching issues.  Unfortunately, I didn't make any notes of the times, because at first I thought it was just my computer being funky.  I'll reiterate that care must be taken to blend the tracks together, particularly around the side breaks.

Damn it, I just made a whole big post and then my internet rubbish'd out and I lost it.

Anyway, in brief, the 5.1 mix of Jedi will be the same one from the encodes made last year.  I'll see about that being made available around the same time I finish with the music edits for Empire.  All changes to the music for both films will be 5.1 only, so edits and content as presented in the 35mm mixes can be heard in the stereo versions.

I'm going to check the stereo mix of Empire and see what I can find.  Can someone tell me exactly where the side breaks took place for the laserdisc release that is being used?  Also locations of reel changes if those are known--anywhere a definite jump in synch is most likely to occur.  Those should be taken care of first so that things like analogue playback speed discrepancy can be ruled out or otherwise accounted for.  Don't forget I'm available to take a crack at fixing the synch if need be.  ;)

I think my girlfriend was one of those lucky bastards--according to her the Cine Capri in Phoenix ran triple features of the films occasionally, and that was a 70mm installation.  It was too long ago to remember anything specific about different versions though.  It's too bad that theatre isn't there anymore . . .

I doubt they made any new 70mm prints, let alone fitted them with updated audio mixes, if the re-release was of such short duration; they probably just loaned out some prints they had lying around that were still in decent shape.

Downloading it now . . .

I'll check it as soon as I am able--going away for a couple days for my girlfriend's birthday, so there will be a short delay, but I'll report back on it as soon as I can.

I think I've noticed that, it sounded like something didn't quite fit for a brief moment.  Figures it was just the SE soundtrack being rubbishy, so I guess there's little point worrying about it too much if it can't be fixed.  It didn't seem like the kind of thing ABC would have let slide if he could help it, anyway.

I feel like I'm repeating myself every time I say it (lol), but I really do love this remastered set.  The sound isn't quite so forward, so it doesn't call attention to itself--you have to listen carefully to hear improvements and so forth, but even if you just kick back and let it play without worrying about the details, it sounds right and comfortable and excellent in a way the SE soundtrack never did.  Without the harshness and scorching high frequencies, the true sound of the music comes through much more clearly.

If this is working out, then that's great!  If it isn't, send me the unaltered captures of the laserdisc audio directly and I'll see what I can do with it.  I would synch it directly to the '93 mix, since I don't have anything to run it with the video at the same time (and that's less precise anyway as Satanika said).

I think using small segments of the '93 mix to replace any gaps in the theatrical track would be ideal, then you wouldn't have to worry about stretching and pitch-shifting and all that rubbish.  Short crossfades will ensure the absence of any jump-cuts between the different sources, but the exact transition points must be chosen carefully--be wary of transitions that may take place during a music cue especially, because then any differences in imaging and sound quality will be the most noticeable and distracting.

I don't know exactly how Belbucus did his synch work for the laserdisc soundtracks, but I think he ended up having to make small edits every few minutes to keep it from ending up way out of synch by the end.  Little cuts or repetitions as needed to account for the difference in frame count, and of course the amount of editing needed would be greatest around the side changes.  It sounded like a lot of tiresome, time-consuming work.

I noticed when I was working on the 70mm mix, when splicing in bits of the 35mm version to replace the altered sections of the '93, that the synch was never 100% exact--the 35mm was usually ever so slightly behind, and occasionally ahead, ranging anywhere from 10 to 52 samples.  Obviously this is a miniscule amount and certainly not noticeable (even the biggest difference was only just over a millisecond).  I think that is an impressively small margin of error.  Out of principle, I lined them up exactly at the sample level for my edits whenever I could, but it probably isn't necessary to be so precise.  Still, just getting them close enough not to notice a discrepancy is probably pretty difficult, especially if you're just going by ear and eye.

It isn't critical to include the theatrical stereo mixes for Empire and Jedi if the synch doesn't work, because overall the '93 versions will sound better; it would just be a nice addition.  I might be able to synch them, but it would definitely take me a long time and I'd probably be pretty burned out afterwards.  lol