hairy_hen

If you have an older TV, then the GOUT is perfectly suited for such

WRONG!

While it is true that the flaws of the GOUT are tougher to make out watching in 480i on a 4:3 crt (which I currently still use), numerous problems are quite evident, most notably the aliasing and shake issues.  The notion that people who don't yet have HD displays have no business with these improved and cleaned up versions is a pretty condescending thing to say, frankly.

Now obviously I would prefer the subtitles not to be cropped by overscan, but I am prepared to accept that if need be, if complete authenticity requires it.  (It's not like I don't know what the lines are, anyway.)  I can't remember whether the current subtitles have been horizontally adjusted or not.

On another topic, the preliminary edits for Jedi's 5.1 are finished.  I just need to listen to a test file and make any further tweaks as needed, and it will be good to go.

Last time I watched a prequel was Trooperman's rough cut of Episode 2, Shroud of the Dark Side.  I still don't really like the story much, but done that way it became a much better movie than the real thing.

Haven't watched the actual prequels at all in a long time, except for a few specific scenes to test out my 5.1 system when I got it set up at the beginning of this year.

Worst decision they ever made, and that's in a long line of really bad ones.  Hell, they didn't even have the decency to inform Zahn about it beforehand.  Idiots.

Just one more thing that must be struck from the record of ever having happened . . . With all the rubbish going on, it's damn hard to be a Star Wars fan sometimes.

But then you remember the things that actually are good, and celebrate them, and that makes things mostly okay.  :)

It makes perfect sense that Luke would flounder a bit, since he's completely on his own as a Jedi and doesn't really know what he's supposed to do next, either for himself or knowing how to train anyone else.  His own training was rather fragmented and cut short, after all.

Leia manages to single-handedly convince an entire race to abandon their allegiance to the Empire, which proves to be the most important element of the entire story in the end.  The same race that had been trying to kidnap her and her children, mind.  Not bad for pregnant and in peril, I'd say.

And who can forget the awesomeness of Mara Jade?

That was one of the many reasons I loved the Thrawn trilogy--it showed that the fight against the Empire did not end with the Battle of Endor, and that the Rebels had spent the next five years trying to take back the galaxy from the remainder of the Imperial fleet.  It was a long and difficult series of battles even before Grand Admiral Thrawn returned to rally the Empire, and of course setting up the "New Republic" was an even more difficult process of slow diplomacy, trying to convince the galaxy one planet at a time that a viable new form of interstellar government could be established.  And all the while the Rebels were strapped for cash and subject to divisive political infighting.  To my mind, this was an extremely realistic portrayal of what the state of things would be after such massive upheaval; though of course in true Star Wars fashion most of the focus and problem-solving lies with the heroes doing what they do best.

To me, the Thrawn trilogy in effect is the sequel trilogy, episodes 7, 8, and 9 in written form if you will.  I wouldn't want anything to replace that for the world.  Episodes 1, 2, and 3 have yet to be told to my view, and most likely never will be, because doing so would require throwing out the official prequels and starting from scratch in a way that will mesh with the unaltered original films.

Editing to add: Bingowings' post above is spot on.

If g-force is nearly finished with his RotJ script, then I will try to finish up the 5.1 mix as soon as possible so it can all be done.  I should be able to do most of it this weekend, hopefully.  I'm looking forward to these GOUT projects being ready!

About the subtitles, I really like msycamore's rendition, but I could go either way about it being in the image or in the black bar area, as long as it's the correct font and doesn't run off the edge of the screen (unfortunately I haven't been able to get into the HD game yet).  I prefer the look of the white subtitles, but could accept yellow if necessary.

Did adywan do any star field recovery for this?  One of the most annoying things about the 2004 versions aside from the blue cast is the way the stars are so frequently dull and nearly invisible in many shots.  Also, have muted engine glows been restored to their proper brightness?

This would be a fantastic project even without such fixes, but I'm curious about them, because they would make it even better if so.  I always liked the way the stars in the originals were so bright . . .

As always, I am very interested in hearing any improvements that can be brought to these scores.  ABC, you continue to amaze me with your dedication to presenting them at their absolute best.  :)

I haven't been able to see the black and white music dvd yet, but I would really like to.

I'm too attached to the Thrawn trilogy to want to see anything that would supercede them.  Plus, the chance of such a thing being even a quarter as good as Zahn's work is marginal at best.

I'd see a completely redone set of prequels that jived with the original trilogy, though.

I was discussing this with my girlfriend yesterday and she raised the notion that they may have at first intended to do real scans for the whole thing, but that Lucas then cheaped out and opted for the quick and easy path.  Maybe he didn't see a benefit to doing a new transfer without a full restoration (he implied this when talking about the Bluray), maybe he just wanted it out and done with to try to shut up the 'whiners' like us, maybe he deliberately wanted a low quality version that would look worse compared to the SE, who knows.  It's possible they'd already started scanning the film and then had to stop, but that somebody dedicated enough managed to convince him to include it to represent the theatrical release.  Or it could be that they only ever scanned that one shot and there was no intention of doing more.

Regardless, it's clear it's a separate transfer than the Empire of Dreams footage, and that whatever they used was in decent shape.  Enough to make a watchable Bluray?  Almost certainly, though who knows if the rest of the movie (let alone the other two) is in as good a condition.

True, I don't think there's anything significant to be gained from using older versions of the Rancor scene.  The compositing, the contrast, and the general picture quality of the '04 in this case are all far better, and switching to older shots just isn't worth it.  It's still all the original source material, basically just cleaned up; it's not like there was any CGI that needed replacing.

As far as my 5.1 goes, the inclusion of the Obi-wan scene's deleted music does make it an unofficial hybrid mix, and I understand if that is found objectionable; but I will point out that adywan's ESB used the SE mix, which contains several elements unique to that version that were not present in the original release, most notably several music edits, in addition to various sound effects and stereo surround channels.  So strictly speaking that isn't quite 'authentic' either, sound-wise, but it has met with well-deserved acclaim.  If Harmy likes how my RotJ sounds, I don't see any reason not to use it as long as an official stereo track was also included; but of course that's just my view.

Obviously, the negatives would be the best source.  But given all the SE crap and the possibility that they may no longer conform to their original edits, and that the colour timing would have to be redone, it would also involve rather more work to put back together again, and every extra step is just one more potential place for LFL to screw things up.  They don't exactly have a good track record, after all.  So it may well be that a more 'secure' result would come from scanning interpositives or prints that already represent a complete depiction of the original films, even if the quality isn't as good.

Given Lucas' comments, I get the impression that if he ever did consent to restore them, it would be from separate sources than his SE's, which is good because then the two can remain quite separate, but also bad because they could half-ass it and claim it was the best they could do.

It seems to me that an ideal source would be whatever they used to transfer the first shot of the GOUT, with the pre-ANH crawl and the Star Destroyer flyby.  Aside from being of non-anamorphic resolution, it looks quite good.  Frankly, I'm amazed that they actually went to the trouble of scanning that shot and putting it in at all.  I wonder what kind of source it came from . . .

Marzipan, look: this is Goatface. I have a goat for a face. Like, not that I have a goat's head for a face, or that my head is a goat's head — like, my face is an entire goat. So, anyways, I was calling you ups 'cause I wanted to join your Goatface Club! Since you've got quite a goat face yourself, I figured you'd be the go-to guy, or gal. It's hard to tell with that goat face of yours. Anyways, my number is eeeeeh-uhhh! So gimme a call back! We can compare goat faces, though I can't imagine... that yours... your- is- pret-... you're ugly... Marzipan. This is Strong Bad, and you're ugly.

Sorry, what was this thread about again . . . ?

Though I have yet to see/hear adywan's version, I have listened closely to the official 2004 ESB dvd 5.1 mix and usually it does sounds pretty good.  The surround channels are consistently too loud, as if they forget to set the levels properly.  It's possible the 3 db difference in surround channel calibration between theatrical and home video acoustics is to blame.  If I turn my rear speakers down by 3 db, it comes out closer to what the surround effects in the '93 mix are like, and the '93 version sounds just right to me without having to adjust anything.

Even compensating for the level difference, though, there's still something off about it.  Many of the original surround effects are there, but a lot of the new ones call too much attention to themselves, distracting even with the level adjustment.  Panning sounds don't always move seamlessly, and I'm just left with the impression that they were too focused on changing the mix and making it 'better' without regard to what was good about it to begin with.  (Which, of course, is exactly the problem with the special editions as a whole.)  I don't rule out the possibility of my setup being imperfect--it's not exactly a pro studio, after all--but I don't hear these kinds of errors in other material.  I haven't spent much time with the '97 5.1 but what I have heard was identical to the '04 except for specific new additions on the dvd.

The fronts of the SE are well put together, though--discrete channels are very nice there, since upmixing can divert too much to the center channel at times.  Its dynamics are strong, though I still prefer the '93 version for general balance.  As an example, when Luke says "Echo Station Five-Seven, we're on our way" and the snowspeeders fly out into battle, there is a power in the sound which the SE does not match; also, shots of the Rebels' white tower guns seem to be missing laser blast sounds for some reason.

Generally they did a very good job with the LFE channel.  How much is 70mm authentic and how much is new I can't say, but much of it in my version remains unchanged.  My work was for the most part limited to bringing down excessive peaks and strengthening subdued moments, often around 3 db either way.  Rare occasions necessitated a 6 or even 10 db reduction, with a couple of synch adjustments so that the low end of ship flybys coincide more directly with what is happening in the mains instead of hanging on afterwards.  One sound of a walker footstep crashing down was augmented from the '93 mix, and a few other things were spruced up with bass copied from elsewhere in the movie, since the SE had no bass in these places but should have.  A bit of 'creative' editing on my part, but it all works very well.  :)  The '93 mixes have a general main channel bass sense that the SE's lack, and adding the LFE on top of that pre-existing excellence gives a better effect than either version achieves separately.

There is a very neat LFE effect when Luke is falling down the tubes underneath Cloud City, some kind of pulsating electrical humming sound.  No idea if it's a new addition or not, but it sounds really cool.

One thing that bugged me in the SE was when Chewie begins to strangle Lando after being untied, Leia's line "Do you think that after what you did to Han that we're going to trust you?" is partially cut off by the enormous roar Chewie lets out.  This was not present in the 35mm or '93 versions, and seems like a case of Ben Burtt failing to realise that his sounds shouldn't be allowed to overpower everything else.  On my 5.1 the full line is heard as it should be, though retaining this did make it somewhat difficult to transition into the '97 mix for Fett's departure.  The levels and music synch didn't quite match up, but hopefully the edit will go unnoticed.

Jedi's SE audio flaws are pretty much the same kind of thing as with Empire.  Still, compared to the abominable rubbish that is the 2004 mix of A New Hope, any shortcomings are very minor indeed, and if I seem fixated on them it's only because I'm a perfectionist about my favourite aural experiences.  lol

I've always been more of a Dark Forces kind of guy--I've owned the whole series at one point or another, and still get out Jedi Outcast/Academy for my Mac sometimes.  (Of course, I do tend to cheat with the Force powers to make it more fun.  lol)  In addition to the excellence of gameplay, I like that their design makes relatively little concession to prequel-isms.

The RotS novelisation is pretty good.  I read it before the movie came out, which may explain why it took me a while to see exactly why the movie SUX'D so much.

Well, to me the original 70mm is the best by far.  Its dynamic range, sound quality, and general balance are unequalled by any other version, and it has none of the distracting additions of later remixes.  Its obvious merits are such that it would be plain irresponsible not to use it for any OT restoration.

Mastering legend Steve Hoffman agrees . . .

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-141011.html

Is it wrong of me to be annoyed when an articulate post gets swallowed up amidst inane feuding?  Is it unreasonable to expect to be able to engage in any sort of intelligent discussion?

Oh wait, this is the internet, sorry.

:p

Aside from adding C-3PO's extra line about the tractor beam, the 1985 mix is not really a remix so much as a remastering.  It is basically identical to the 35mm stereo except with slightly clearer sound quality and a wider stereo image, probably achieved through digital processing.

The 1997 mix, while obviously far better than the 2004 version, does have its share of issues.  High frequency noise is a problem--just listen to any of C-3PO's dialogue and you'll hear it.  Whoa!  This is present of previous mixes but nowhere near as strongly as that.  The dynamic range is usually pretty good, but often not even close to the 70mm version, especially in the beginning of the film.  The general EQ also gives it a somewhat tinny sound throughout.

Given that, it is understandable why they wanted to remix again for the dvd.  Unfortunately, they screwed that up so badly that it would have been far better had they just not done anything to it at all.  It is very telling that one of the 2004 version's biggest problems is that the EQ makes it blast out bass above all else (I'm not talking about the LFE channel) and kills the highs, taking the issue of the '97 version in exactly the opposite direction, but to a much greater extreme.  The sound became so muffled and distorted it's barely recognisable.

Since it's the same guy doing the Bluray, and they never admitted to any problems, I doubt they'll do it from scratch again.  It will be a further modification of the existing mix, rubbish with even more garbage piled on top of it.  If they actually did fix anything at all I'd be extremely surprised.

A B C said:

I don't remember the prequels. Can you remember well enough all the films you've seen in your life ?

I deeply envy you, ABC.  I wish like hell I could forget them.

Objectively speaking, I would agree that it doesn't matter if people like the prequels and special editions or not, if the originals weren't being deliberately suppressed.  However, on an emotional level, it in fact does disturb me a great deal.  I fervently wish they had never been made at all, both because I loathe the revisionism and because I hate the fact that this whole 'controversy' even has to exist.

Moreover, I feel like a fool looking back on the time when I actually did like them and was taken in by their flashiness.  Like Marion's father towards Indiana Jones, it took a hell of a lot to alienate me from Lucas.  For a long time I cheerfully accepted the company line that the SE's were so much better, and thought TPM was just dandy.  AotC began to set me on the path of realising something wasn't right, but RotS at first seemed to make it all okay again.  It wasn't until the sheer awfulness of the 2004 dvd's, which I didn't buy until after RotS came out, that it fully sunk in for me just how rotten things had become in Denmark . . . er, Star Wars.  Being as focused on sound as I am, I could possibly have even accepted those further changes if the dvd sound mix hadn't been so disgustingly terrible.  At that point I finally took a good hard look back at all the stupid things Lucas had been doing, and for the first time saw them for what they truly were.  It was a sobering experience to say the least.

Watching the original versions of the films again for the first time in eight years was like getting back together with old friends I hadn't even known I'd missed, that I had unthinkingly abandoned to be with the superficial popular crowd.  How could I have ever been made to think they were lacking or in need of revision?  Then I discovered this forum and learned about all the sound mixes and other small differences even the originals have had over the years, and became interested in them from a technical perspective as well as what made them artistically superior.  I also re-read Timothy Zahn's works and saw how much better his ideas were than what Lucas actually did.

So in the face of this tremendous unwilling disillusionment with something that has meant so much to me over the years, the notion that people would continue to actively believe and support LFL's nonsense is something I find utterly repugnant.  It might sound snobbish to say, but I think I learned a valuable lesson about what it means to have good taste, as opposed to lapping something up simply because it has the name "Star Wars" on it.  I hate that it has to be this way, and part of me still longs for the days when there was no split and the creator hadn't ruined the integrity of his own story, which could only be if the prequels and special editions had never been made.

Undoubtedly Star Wars means different things to different people, but that the now-official view bears no resemblance to what it used to be, and cannot be reconciled with the way I myself see it, means that the people who do support the party line on some fundamental level just do not get it.  They don't know what Star Wars is really about, they don't understand what it is that makes it work or not work, and seem to be incapable of distinguishing between the two.

Still, despite how much it took to alienate me, I was never really one of them, because I never actively derided the original versions of the films.  To me, they used to be one and the same.  I didn't extracate myself until it sunk in that Lucas meant to suppress the real films and replace them, and that the prequels' contradictions were meant as active retcons rather than simple oversight.  Unlike prequel gushers, I do not want to think about the ways the newer material fundamentally (and nonsensically) alters aspects of the story.  Unfortunately, the vile truth is that many people will continue to believe Lucas' revisionist crap, either not knowing how the story has been changed and destroyed, not caring, or thinking it to be a genuine improvement.

And that is why I hate the fact the prequels and special editions even exist.

The '97 version has instances of overcooked bass as well, but in different places.  I pretty much went with whichever blended best into the overall soundtrack, and adjusted the levels for each bass effect that needed changing individually.

R2's fall ended up being a 12 db reduction of the '04 effect, providing just a tiny amount of oomph rather than a needlessly massive impact.  Strictly speaking, it doesn't have to be there at all, but I like the way it sounds.  ;)

Darth Editous said:

I still swear I read somewhere that the AC3 mixes on DVDs were "broken" by the need to keep them sounding good on less-than-5.1 equipment.

I've heard allegations of that kind of thing before, but I've never been able to find a clear answer on exactly what the differences might be.  It probably varies a lot with each film and by who is doing the remixing.  There could be issues with the phase and timing of the surround channels that might theoretically affect the quality of a downmix, perhaps.  But honestly, if they're so concerned about making the mixes ideal for being played on less than stellar equipment, why not create a 2.0 downmix especially for that purpose and make it the default track on the disc?  That way people watching it through tv speakers or whatever can just put the disc in and watch with a mix idealised for them, and people with proper home theatre setups who actively care about this sort of thing can manually select the proper 5.1 track.

Some dvd's, such as recent Pixar releases, actually do this, and I think it's a great way to go.  Compromising a mix just so it will sound better on lesser equipment owned by people who don't care about sound anyway, when there is absolutely no real need to do so, would be the height of foolishness.

I've heard that some some laserdisc 5.1 tracks have the surround channels set too high, because they forgot to recalibrate the mix for the smaller home environment.  Still, that's easy to correct in the receiver setup (just don't forget to change it back later), and having the real theatrical mix is always a plus.

The blue R2 from the SE actually does look better, since they didn't tremendously oversaturate him as they often did in Empire, so keeping it in wouldn't really bother me, but as long as you're going to the effort of making a theatrical reconstruction, it might as well be reverted.

Those shots in the clip look impressively good.

I'm not even going to click on the link, because I can tell it will make me want to cut a bitch.

I think the Picard and Riker double facepalm about covers it.  Good lord these people are stupid.

I don't know much about that sort of thing, but it sounds to me like an exact reassembly of the original film from the negative could be rather difficult given these sort of differences, both from the visual perspective and for synching the sound mixes if the frame counts differ.  Using a cleaned up interpositive might actually be a better bet in order to get the best possible representation of the films as they were back then . . .