frank678

SilverWook said:

You can check out some 70mm frames here:

http://www.jedi1.net/

Yep just comparing the trash compactor still against the blu-ray and 1982 pan and scan, the 70mm has the most top and bottom information, then pan and scan, then blu-ray. This is fractional stuff- for example you get an extra button on a control panel in a scene or whatever, but it comes down to how balanced the frame feels, which is pretty minute subjective stuff unless you want absolute compositional accuracy!

SilverWook said:

I read somewhere many of Fox's widescreen LD transfers might have been too tight with regards to headroom, so what we're supposed to see or not see is murky at best.

True I'm going by the Blu Ray as the new standard for whats intended. I remember reading too that the 70mm prints had a different aspect ratio and show slightly more top and bottom information. But I would guess as Lucas was composing in camera with his marked off widescreen frame he would have used things like the skyline to balance his shots against. It seems (to me) like he would not have intended for the tiny strip of sky to show for example in this frame and change the 'closed in' feeling of the lanscape. This is just my subjective guess.

For those interested in the minutiae of these things one unique aspect of the Pan/Scan telecine is the extra 'headroom'. Although I have screwed up the aspect ratio on my PAL 1982 transfer you should still be able to see the extra visual information there at the top of the screen. In these examples, the skyline is visible in the sandpeople shot and chewies head is not cropped in the elevator (as compared to the widescreen framing). This is a corruption of GL's original compositions, of course, but it does give you a little sneak peek beyond the official frame.

Even between the tape transfers of the exact same telecines there seems to be slight variations. I compared my 1982 PAL UK tape (made in USA) to Russs15's 1982 PAL UK tape (made in Japan) and found very minute differences at the edges of the left and right of the frame here and there (though only the odd line or so). Russs15 also spotted that my tape had a different fox intro title card. (http://youtu.be/-HJyFadDs3M) Small differences but it does add to the imperfect charm of this format (or not if you hate it!)

russs15 said:

It could be anything from the original VHS, the VHS to DVD recorder process, the low quality setting on this particar version of the transfer, the DVD to AVI conversion process or any combination of the four things.

If the higher quality DVD file looks as bad - blame the VHS or DVD recorder!!! Either way, we are screwed.

Jonno really has his work cut out on this one.........

My money's on this was just the settings on the tv the day it was recorded. Seems like theres no univeral settings for telecines/broadcasts either (!)

Just glad it made it intact to 2012!

There's a couple of interesting colour casts on this tape, when the droids land on tatooine there seems to be a yellow colour cast, almost like it was tinted to make it look more desert-y [and now I see it again this is how I remeber it from childhood viewings]. The second sequence is Ben's hutt, which as a sequence the shots seem to fit together as they are all quite shady, as if it is quite dark inside inside, I had always thought it was meant to be lighter inside Ben's hutt and the print had faded, but maybe I got the sense of the colours/lighting a bit wrong (it certainly wouldn't be the first time). The first shot in the sequence which looks faded on other sources looks more saturated and fits better on this version

And theres a sense of being in the shade thoughout the whole thing

The technicolor screening still looks quite dark as well so maybe this whole sequence is fairly shady, the source of light coming from the side windows?

Jonno said:

Thanks for your patience everyone, this project is still on its way! I don't want to rush the decision-making process here (Russ has provided multiple passes so I want to make sure I'm using the best version of each segment) so I'm still at the rough assembly stage.

I want to keep this preservation as transparent as possible so I'm initially grappling with Womble - I have other (arguably better) editing tools which can edit the MPEG-2 but they WILL re-encode it, particularly since I'll be adding material from other sources (e.g. the ads).

As a rough estimate I'll be looking to get this done in time for Christmas - the formats will be a DVD with menus (possibly dual layer, depends on the final tally) and an MP4. Any thoughts or suggestions in the meantime, send them this way...

Thanks Jonno, did'nt want to pre-empt anything you're doing, just wanted to get some examples of the 'buried treasure' on this tape posted as I have recently done a compare and contrast with my 1982 PAL rental tape, which is washed out compared to this, despite being an earlier tape (!)

msycamore said:

Yeah, I recently got to see this one myself, and it's fantastic in its film-like quality, the theatrical timing is mostly intact.

I agree this does look pretty intact all things considered

For those who have some interest in the ITV broadcast, I asked Russs15 if I could post up some frames from one of his two captures of the tape (this being the slightly more compressed version). This is not meant at all as a preview to Jonno's work, but to give a taster of the raw materials for those interested in its strengths. Although the tape is marred by heavy colour casts on certain scenes, soft focus, and is the direct opposite of the home video releases in that tends towards being too dark/murky, the main buried treasure here is SATURATION. It's been suggested that this is from a 16mm print, if so it must be from a fresh print because it has the solid richness to it approaching a 35mm print (to my eyes). Here is an example of that rich quality, which in some scenes gives the images a burnished look similar to how negative1's teaser frames of his prints look via compression.

The benefit of this saturation is more lifelike skin tone. Scenes that often look washed out on home video leaving oddly coloured, flat, skintone in certain frames, on this version look much nearer to lifelike tone/body. Also the reflective copper-gold of C-3P0 comes through more pronounced:

This 'body' adds a greater sense of solid depth within a frame.

Thirdly the death star attack has the blue tones intact which faded to grey on later transfers.

I will be posting up some more frames later in the day to give more of a sense of the pluses of this tape. Thanks to Russs15 for preserving this tape to look back on in 2012!

Here's some raw frames from the PAL 1982 VHS, even though its very desaturated compared to GOUT it hints at more blue being present originally than GOUT suggests in this sequence, I will post up some more examples of scenes with these hints of blue later.

You_Too said:

By the way, did anyone ever contact this guy? http://johnwairephoto.com/blog/2010/07/21/the-end-of-an-era/

He's obviously a professional photographer, and photographers always pick out the best shots of hundreds, and I bet some of those must have been of the screen itself. I just guess he didn't post any shots of the screen because of copyright reasons. But maybe if somebody explains how valuable they would be to the community and restoration projects he could share them anonymously?

 If anyone is reading this in the wings who's toying with the idea of doing a restoration I'd also advise to save all the media from the baltimore screening that is online. The 8mm Krieg der Sterne clip got taken down from youtube after I had linked it at the beginning of this thread, and Save Star Wars looks like its been hit by a virus according to google. I'd say archive this stuff as a precaution if you have any plans to come back to it later in the future.

msycamore said:

Also, the IP used for creating the SWE (Technidisc) and THX video releases seems to share certain damage/dirt spots with the IB Technicolor prints based on screenshots and footage I've seen, so it's not impossible that they were made from the same IP, but then they would need to include the infamous damage in the Tantive-corridor, would be interesting to know if it was present on those prints as well.

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rm4axh&s=6

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4pvais&s=6

The PAL collectors widescreen VHS can be pushed to resemble the IB Technicolor print. Therefore this could be from the same IP. The Technidisc seems to have much more pink damage in the homestead burning scene, whereas the PAL VHS does not. Which would suggest its different prints in different states of repair.  

>

You_Too said:

frank678 said:

I think the capturing the complexity of the gold colour of 3PO is where all early 80s versions will pretty much fall down. Gold seems just too rich a colour for these to render accurately (for VHS).

Didn't Mike Verta say 3PO was more copper than gold in the original prints?

You're right I revised my previous image since looking at it again

I would never bet against what Mike Verta said. To me the answer is coppery gold, but much more coppery than I thought- now I look at it Because hes reflective like a mirror I guess he would appear lighter outside in daylight from when inside.

It seems to be the gold glassy highlights would be the first to fade when a print starts fading because they are the most delicate. Then copper, then he would start looking yellow...?

LexX said:

Those are production photos, not film captures. They aren't qualified for reference.

But I have their license right here! er.. no I don't. They can help in a round about way to see these scenes somewhat de-pinked.. but not a hard reference source, no.

yotsuya said:

Two things, that image is a poor representation of what the LP images look like and that image of C3PO in the desert isn't a good example. I was looking more at the images with skin tones and the white of the blockade runner.

I'm going to have to dig out the LP and Story LP and music book and see if I can get a scan that looks right (don't hold your breath, I have to find them first - could take years at the rate I work).

No worries these can be found via google image search

I think the capturing the complexity of the gold colour of 3PO is where all early 80s versions will pretty much fall down. Gold seems just too rich a colour for these to render accurately (for VHS).

I suspect though that those album pictures are still not close enough, here is my guess of what it would have looked like in the cinema, with further adjustment to russs15's still=

 3rd attempt:

yotsuya said:

I think the best source for the original colors are the products that were made at the time that include stills from the films. Like this image of the LP. http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/9873/10845353_3.jpg?v=8CE040475E76D60

Without access to a definitive original source to base the color timing on, I think it is more a matter of preference than accuracy. I don't think any of the VHS or LD transfers (or the GOUT) really comes close to what it originally looked like on film.

Hi Yotsuya, I agree the VHS and LD transfers dont really come close to the depth of 35mm. But I think some can give a more accurate "taste" of the original colours, because prints and negatives fade, by default therefore one transfer is going to be less distorted even if it can never capture the depth of colour, it can give a nearer representation.

AntcuFaalb said:

I just purchased a Panasonic LX-900U, a very highly-rated LD player known for its noise-free picture and lack of CLV smearing.

In fact, the ultra-rare high-end Runco LJR I/II is just a clone of this model with some added features!

I got a good deal, too.

sweet! are you planning to do a straight or a tweaked preservation so you can compare&contrast with myscamore's versions. Also are you still going to be preservaing your 92 vhs collectors tape - I'm interested to see how that stacks up against the technidisc, if theres any undiscovered differences