darth_ender said:
You're right, it is difficult. I am an RN at a hospital and work night shift. About 21 hours ago, one of my patients passed away. His family was sad because he didn't receive his last rites in time. I hope you would choose better words of comfort than, "Well, it's okay because it's all a bunch of crap anyway," were you in my shoes.
I agree.
darth_ender said:
You know, religion is meaningful to people. Just like music, a sunset, love. It is deep and has deeper implications to a person than you seem to realize. There are psychological benefits, health benefits, things that are proven to be actual benefits. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, whether it is true or not, if you dismiss it so readily, you miss far more than you could possibly realize.
I agree, but when it comes to religion those good experiences and benefits come from accepting the religious believes as true, and I mean ''have faith'' that is the true. A person who doesn't accept religion as truth can't have those benefits because it won't generate any uplifting of any kind. I can't get spiritual uplift by a religious experience like praying to Jesus because for me that would be the same as praying to Shiva or Zeus. That is why you have ONE religion and despite the fact that you may understand and empathize with the other ones you still won't be able to feel any uplifting by those because is not what you believe as true.
We all get our spiritual uplifting from different sources, in many ways and on different levels and not all people requires mystical, ancient or supernatural means to achieve such states of mind. I'm not saying that we should get rid of all religions, I'm saying that religions are just a path for spiritual meaning and we should not take all of it as absolute true and try to run our lives and society by it's rules. The gift of discerning what's absurd from a practical and/or empirical point of view and what's a good teaching or lesson to apply as a every day value starts in accepting that you can't just take a whole religion and say that it's entirely true just because of the uplift it causes, specially when we know that the psychological influence of the religion in the human physique has no match.
I'm not saying this is your case of course, I'm illustrating a ''broad spectrum'' (not to be confuse with ''generalization'') of religious people that will take almost everything in the scriptures as literal true rather than see the allegories, metaphors, cultural references, scientific flaws, linguistic confusions, misinterpretations and all the things you can expect of a ancient millennial book that has been modified in many ways and by many people (both intentional and unintentional) throughout the centuries. Religion should be aware of it's own boundaries: is an option not a fact.
darth_ender said:
That is not my point. My point is that they understand that there is scientific reasoning, but they also realize there is room for faith. And it did not detract at all from their brilliance. Try as you may to demonstrate that intelligent thinking comes from rejecting such things, many intelligent people actually embrace them.
I agree, by any means intelligent thinking means rejecting supernatural/mystical things over scientific reasoning but let's agree that an intelligent mind will also be wise enough to keep them both separate at least when it comes to search for scientific truth. Spiritual truth is an opinion.
darth_ender said:
The absence of proof is not proof. It is justification for doubt, but even if I didn't believe in God, I would only be an agnostic, because I'd recognize the possibility.
I agree, but as long as there are doubts about a claim then it can't be taken as true, which means that act based on the assumption that it is true would be irresponsible.
darth_ender said:
But there is no need to prove something like this. You don't believe. We got it, thanks. But we take things on faith. Perhaps it's a means of receiving evidence different from that which you employ. Have you ever, you know, scientifically ruled out such a mechanism for seeking knowledge? Have you ever actually sought something in faith before deciding it's untrue? That is the scientific method, after all.
Taking things on faith isn't by any means scientific, you can extrapolate the scientific method principles into abstract dilemmas but since we already established that religious people takes religion on ''faith'' then any attempt to reconcile religion with a scientific approach will fail. The scientific method is all about following the evidence and be able to abandon a hypothesis when proven wrong or at least doubt about it until it is proved or discarded, the religion tends to pull more in the opposite direction.
darth_ender said:
Oh boy, a book written by inspired but still mortal humans actually has faults and contradictions! We never knew! ;)
Yeah, what a shock right? We should take that into consideration any time somebody claims that what is written on it is literal true from the hand o god, even if it was inspired by him we can't just neglect the fact that in the end is a book written by humans. There are some other gods who inspired humans to write stuff as well... if we could only know which one is right.
Warbler said:
You were the one that made a claim. You claimed he was dead. I told you what we Christians believe. Since you made the claim that he is dead, it is up to you to prove it.
Warbler said:
actually, Christians believe he was seen and was physically present on this planet after he died until he ascended into heaven. We believe he was by the two Marys, his disciples and Paul. True, they could all have been lying, but it can not be proven that they did not see him alive again.
I agree but you think that they are not lying because you have ''faith'' in the truthfulness of the claims and the funny thing here is that if the two Marys, his disciples and Paul indeed literally saw him then why they would need ''faith'' at all? If you are an eyewitness of an event then you don't need faith. If I see Jesus alive with my own eyes the I'll definitely will become a follower and support the dude. Also my intention is not disprove the claim but to demonstrate that you can easily doubt about it and therefore is not true and can't be takes as one, as long as there is doubts there is no truth, just faith.
Warbler said:
I didn't claim Jesus isn't dead. Look at what I originally wrote:
But the bible claims that he isn't because he resurrected, that was the whole point of the Easter Day right? That is the claim that can't be disproved o proved and therefore is not a truth. Also If I recall correctly your agree with the biblical claim, at least your signature says so.
Warbler said:
All I would have to prove my claim is to prove that Christians believe Jesus isn't dead.
We are not discussing what Christians believe since we all know what they believe, the debate is if what they believe is true.
Warbler said:
I can't prove that Jesus isn't dead. I never said I could. My point is that you can not prove he is dead. Therefore it is still possible he isn't dead. You can believe all you want that he is dead. You may even be able to say in all probability that he is dead. But, you can't say for certain he is dead. You do not know it for a fact.
Again and quoting myself: ''Also my intention is not disprove the claim but to demonstrate that you can easily doubt about it and therefore is not true and can't be taken as one, as long as there is doubts there is no truth, just faith.''
Warbler said:
You say "I think", and "may have existed". If you can't say for certain he existed, how can you say for certain he is dead?
But also you can't say for certain he existed nor he is alive.
If all Christian claims were indeed true we wouldn't be discussing ANYTHING at all because there would be enough evidence to convince EVERYBODY, evidence that shouldn't be a problem for the ''Alfa and Omega'' to supply but no, here we are stuck in philosophical rhetoric.
Warbler said:
and you are free to believe what you want. But can not state as fact what you do not know for certain to be fact.
Correct, but the fact here is that there is enough reasons to doubt about the Jesus claim, I can't say it's false as much you can't say it's true which you say it is but based on faith.
Warbler said:
Yeah, I know the Bible has contradictions. That doesn't mean I can't point out contradictions and it doesn't make your contradiction into something consistent.
Of course I have contradictions which by definition can't be consistent with each other, but pointing out my contradictions do not make the ones of the bible to go away so.