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daveinthecave

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20-Apr-2020
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15-Jan-2021
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Post
#1402298
Topic
The Music Discussion Thread
Time

The Phantom Menace- Duel of the Fates and Anakin is Free

Attack of the Clones - Across the Stars

Revenge of the Sith - The Great Jedi Purge and Battle of the Heroes

A New Hope - Binary Sunset

The Empire Strikes Back - Carbon Freeze / Darth Vader’s Trap

Return of the Jedi - A Jedi’s Fury / Destroying The Shield and Funeral Pyre For A Jedi

The Force Awakens - The Scavenger

The Last Jedi - Ahch-To Island

The Clone Wars - Anakin Talks to Ahsoka (from The Wrong Jedi)

I haven’t had enough time with any of the other movies to really comment.

Post
#1398792
Topic
Revenge of the Sith - Expanded Edition (Released)
Time

Bobson Dugnutt said:

I’ve been working on another revision of the edit, doing upscales of the BR scenes to 4K and then downscaling to 1080p. It looks surprisingly better, especially on the faces and clothing. So I’ll work on it for the ROTS scenes as well as the AOTC ones. I don’t think there was anything worthwhile for TPM but I’ll take a look

alyt
alt

Definite improvement in clarity here.

Post
#1394701
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

Stardust1138 said:

I can certainly understand what you mean. It’s certainly not my favourite scene but I think catching on to the breathing foreshadowing made the scene a lot better for me. It’s such a simple catch and you miss moment.

I’ll have to watch for that on my next viewing of the saga.

Stardust1138 said:

I was also mistaken. My thoughts (in part) on The Phantom Menace is here.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Phantom-Menace-anyone-want-to-chat-about-TPM/id/72493/page/2#1366806

Out of curiosity, how do you rank the Skywalker saga films?

That thread had a lot of really interesting takes on TPM. I enjoyed reading through it.

As for my ranking I still have a preference for the OT despite the fact that the PT has grown on me a lot these past few years but its not set in stone and will likely change over time.

V > IV > VI > III > I > II >> VII > VIII > IX

TPM and ROTS are really close for me, as I said, and so are ROTJ and ANH.

Post
#1394383
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

Stardust1138 said:

Sorry I never saw you replied!

I can so understand what you mean! I honestly love TPM. It’s my favourite Star Wars film. I’ve posted on the rankings thread in great detail why it’s my favourite. AOTC is probably the weakest of George’s six films but it’s also really grown on me in a very big way the last year. I think seeing world building like Coruscant become more commercial, Anakin and Padme have to travel as refugees, Padme contrasting Palpatine by letting go her position of power, and other layered aspects really make for an interesting viewing when you consider the gradual change of tone in each entry. I’m firmly in the minority but I love Anakin and Padme’s romance. They’re both repressed and don’t know what love feels like. It’s not meant to be smooth and will be awkward. However their love overtakes all in the end. I really like when Padme tells Anakin: “Anakin, don’t try to grow up too fast.” It’s so simple yet it feels right. Even Anakin telling Padme: “The thought of not being with you - I can’t breathe.” is great foreshadowing. I do wish there were more clarity to the mystery of Sifo-Dyas. That’s probably the biggest thing I wish had been addressed further in the films. It’s one reason I loved the idea of Snoke as Plagueis. He would’ve influenced Sifo-Dyas to order the Clone Army and he and Palpatine would’ve built the Empire in partnership. Master and Apprentice. There’s always a bigger fish. Anyways, Revenge of the Sith is a great film. I only have minor nitpicks.

My rankings right now are: I, IV, V, III, VI, II, VIII, VII, and IX.

I actually like the romance as well. It’s mainly the fireplace scene that doesn’t work for me. Most of the dialogue matches the awkward/repressed angle that you talked about but in that scene it sounds more Shakespearean and it doesn’t really fit.

Post
#1393639
Topic
Why I Love Prequel Yoda (and what I think people get wrong)
Time

StarkillerAG said:

This, 100%. I like Yoda’s prequel arc in theory, but having him swing around a lightsaber while jumping like an idiot was a huge mistake that devalues his character. Hal’s prequel edits are some of my favorite ones, at least partially because he removed every instance of Yoda using a lightsaber.

I don’t understand this point of view. I can see why it might break your suspension of disbelief, but how does it devalue his character in any way? We know that light-sabers are the weapon of the Jedi, and building one is supposedly some kind of right-of-passage according to Vader in ROTJ, so why wouldn’t Yoda use one?

Post
#1391860
Topic
Opinion: Return Of The Jedi is Very Underrated. Do You Agree?
Time

TheBirdwatcher said:

Now the emperor dismisses this, saying that they are safe from the attack (how would Luke even know if he’s telling the truth here?), commands an attack from a button on his large chair that can spin (did Vader’s chair even do this in Empire?), and the DS II starts blowing up… a few large ships. Not everyone, just a few large ships. Wait, the rebels are in a trap with the Empire’s fleet. So, the emperor says that ALL THE REBELS will die. However, from what I remember, the rebels could actually leave, but they were staying around to wait for the rebels to break down the shield barrier on Endor “We’ve gotta give them more time!- Lando”. So, they really weren’t being destroyed entirely- they could just leave (with some casualties) if push came to shove.

This is a good point.

TheBirdwatcher said:

So, Luke decides to defend himself, but the emperor causes him to doubt and says that it’s inevitable, which causes Luke to finally cave in, despite initially having the confidence that ANYTHING that they did here was pointless because THEY WERE ALL going to die.

Why is this inconsistent? He believed that the rebels were going to win but Palpatine has revealed that it was all a trap and the rebels have no chance, so Luke’s confident mindset has been destroyed.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Also, it’s weird that Luke doesn’t believe that the emperor’s lying to him and that he’s witnessing that destruction happening quickly in outer space. Luke’s usually skeptical of other claims- Luke’s destiny being with Vader and the revelation scene with Vader. While he denies that the emperor would convert him, I am surprised that an emotional conflict [death of the rebels] doesn’t come with more doubt or skepticism from Luke.

Palpatine correctly reveals that he knows the rebels plan and shows Luke that the Death Star is operational, how could this be a lie?

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Luke tries to kill the emperor [the smart thing because the Emperor sent a command to kill the rebels, in doing so, he is preventing more deaths from occurring], and this is blocked by Vader because the fight is pre-arranged. Apparently, according to The Making of ROTJ book, the emperor would have struck Luke down if Vader hadn’t moved. This begs the question though, how is Luke even a threat to the Emperor (which is why the Emperor was afraid of him in Empire and wanted him as an ally- to prevent himself from being destroyed by Luke) if the Emperor would have struck him down, anyway? And then, the Emperor would have been angry with Vader.

It is not made clear in this film or in ESB whether Palpatine sees Luke as a threat in the here-and-now or if he fears that Luke will become more powerful later on. Perhaps this is a problem but it never really bothered me.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, we have Luke going into his stoic (insane) mode where he proclaims his view [or delusion, since his desire to save Vader is only present in Return. He gave no indication of it in Empire, and he didn’t have a conflict over killing his father or not.] that Vader is good still, which is besides the point; Vader can be both incredibly bad AND good. The horror lies in what Vader has already accomplished (killing most of the Jedi, some of the rebels, Biggs, torturing Han and Leia, etc.).

Luke did not know that Vader was his father until the end of Empire (when he was in no position to kill or save him) and this isn’t confirmed by Yoda until this film. It seems pretty obvious to me that Luke, having been conflicted since the end of ESB, decides in this film to save his father. It’s called character development. As for Vader, yes he’s done horrible things but Luke senses in him a potential for redemption.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Vader and Luke try to seek each other out. Luke trying to keep his emotions in check is ridiculous, if I must be the first person to say this. In Empire, he didn’t care about his feelings, besides avoiding to hate, and he did so maturely by focusing on the right thing- defending his friends. Honestly, it makes Luke look juvenile when he’s supposed to be a man in this film to have him hiding in the background trying to suppress his feelings. Who cares, honestly?

Then Vader gives Luke a reason to hate, except that this reason is actually poor- it’s Leia may somehow turn to the dark side. Not- “I killed your best friend. I killed the rebels. I tortured Han and Leia. I indirectly killed your aunt and uncle. I killed Obi-wan.”. It’s a vague reason, and the only reason that Luke cares is because he believed that Leia was the only hope for the rebels, even though they could have found someone else who was force-sensitive or else to connect with the force. Even in Final Fantasy XII, where there’s a similar scene, it’s revealing that a death occurred from a specific person.

The point here is that Vader is using Luke’s loyalty to his friends against him.

TheBirdwatcher said:

So, Luke looses it, complete with hell imagery from the red lights on the elevator shaft. Luke’s going dark? Okay. I guess we go all in with this, even though Luke threw himself off of a pillar in Empire to prevent himself from joining Vader and the dark side.

These are two different situations so Luke reacts differently to each one.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Also, Luke tosses his lightsaber away, instead of keeping it, because… he was warned by Yoda to beware of the Emperor’s abilities? Also, did Luke not realize that the Emperor could use/sense the force by knowing his emotions?
In addition, Luke’s tense breathing here indicates danger, so Luke KNOWS that he is doing something risky. Why not keep the lightsaber for safety? Is Luke intending to die here? What is going on?

As you yourself pointed out, Luke went into this confrontation prepared to die as long as he could save his father. Safety it not his concern and his lightsaber, at this point, represents a temptation to strike out in anger.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, the Emperor shocks Luke because Luke is a punk (young fool), apparently, and young fools who defy the Emperor must die. If Luke isn’t that powerful (by rejecting the dark side) why kill Luke, though? Couldn’t you just leave the guy alone? If he’s of not much help by not being of the dark side according to your perspective, why even kill him? If you were confident in DS II destroying ALL OF THE REBEL ALLIANCE, why is Luke even a concern to you?

I think the Emperor is just being sadistic at this point and, again, I assume that he view Luke as a potential future threat.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Then, Luke begs for Vader to save him (ala begging Obi-wan to save him in Empire). Luke, you made your stand to defy the Emperor, you threw away your lightsaber, did you not expect the Emperor to retaliate or at least send in some guards to hurt you? Why even make your stand (to die) if you’re going to beg Vader to save you?

Luke’s whole motivation in this scene is to save his fathers soul. It’s why he gave himself up in the first place.

TheBirdwatcher said:

The general lack of emotion from Hamill in the bridge scene (with a questionable reliance on head nodding and shaking to convey non-verbal meaning) is hard for the audience to emphasize with. When David Prowse is doing a better job emoting in the Darth Vader suit than Hamill, something is off.

The lack of emotion is intentional because Luke is trying to suppress his emotions. The dark side is all about giving in to your emotions so it makes sense that Vader is more expressive.

TheBirdwatcher said:

Luke acting actively by challenging Vader through generally emotionless gestures and cold, indifferent words likely to “punish” Vader (“Then, my father is truly dead.”) is rather inconsistent with Empire’s ending where Luke was scared by Vader nearly killing him and his emotions at the end- denial- fear, horror, acknowledgement of Vader’s relationship with him. Luke was trying to get away from Vader at the end, when Vader cut off his hand, since he was a threat, now Luke is threatening Vader.

Luke has clearly grown and changed since ESB as has Vader.

TheBirdwatcher said:

When Vader has the opportunity to destroy the Emperor early on when Luke decides to full-on attack the Emperor, he chickens out, even though “Luke’s skills are complete?” Luke is now the foreseen threat to the Emperor, and if we are to take the Emperor seriously at his declaration that Luke will complete his training to the dark side; he was only an act away from the dark side (doesn’t make sense, but if it’s true, then Luke is extremely powerful). Vader: “You don’t know the power of the dark side!” Sometimes the comments are leaning towards favoring the Emperor “It is pointless to resist, my son.” [i.e. The emperor’s offer to the dark side] “The emperor is your master now”.

Vader no longer wants to rule the galaxy with Luke and/or he doesn’t believe they can other-throw the Emperor any more. It seems likely that finding his son, along with Luke’s continual refusal to join him, has rekindled Anakin’s humanity in some way. The fact that the emperor foresaw (seemingly) the events which brought he and Luke to this juncture seems to preclude the possibility that he can be defeated, at least at this moment.

Post
#1391837
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

PressFireToPlay said:

I want to enjoy it I really do and there are good moments but time hasn’t been kind. Plus with Vader murdering a load of Jedi kids…being a parent myself it kinda makes his redemption touch to acknowledge now. So don’t bother with the prequels if I can help it.

He’s a party to mass murder on a planetary scale in the OT, you can’t really get any lower then that.

Post
#1390817
Topic
Why I Love Prequel Yoda (and what I think people get wrong)
Time

SparkySywer said:

G&G-Fan said:

Remember when Yoda said “Wars not make one great” in Empire Strikes Back? He learned that from the Clone Wars.

It’s only through the teachings of Qui-Gon, who became his master after Revenge of the Sith and was basically the perfect Jedi, even if nobody could see it, was Yoda able to grow into the character he is in Empire Strikes Back.

I’d find this a lot more compelling if this was an actual plot thread in the prequels, instead of something people just inferred from a bunch of EU media.

When Yoda says this in Empire, it’s not hard to imagine he’s saying this from firsthand experience. But in the prequels, that’s really not what’s portrayed. Yoda has no character arc where he learns the horrors of war. If it’s true that he learned this through Qui-Gon, you gotta remember that this is entirely off-screen, after the credits roll in Episode 3.

It is a plot thread in the prequels. It is clear by the end of ROTS that the war was a mistake, given that Palpatine engineered the whole thing for his own ends, and it lead to the near extinction of the Jedi order. Yoda obviously recognizes this and learns from it as his open admission that he’s failed and his exiling himself to Dagobah bears out.

Post
#1390549
Topic
Lucas' Inspirations for Star Wars
Time

Tobar said:

Loving this thread. A couple years ago I was really into researching the various inspirations for Star Wars, sadly I’ve forgotten a lot of it. I did end up adding the Lensman series to my reading list but have yet to get around to it. Coincidentally, last night I think I might have stumbled something. I was browsing around Netflix when I came across High Noon and this image came up:

Lucas was definitely inspired by westerns. The Searchers, in particular, had a clear influence on both Star Wars and Attack of the Clones.

Post
#1390035
Topic
I don't think Revenge Of The Sith is as good as everyone says it is.
Time

Stardust1138 said:

Revenge of the Sith is great. I love the film. It’s my second favourite of the Prequels and fourth overall in my rankings as of right now. I don’t get why some people call Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side rushed as we see it being built to in the previous two films. In The Phantom Menace we see Anakin’s fear and in Attack of the Clones we see his anger and in Revenge of the Sith we see his hate. As our wise green friend says: “Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Agreed 100%. I think that all three prequels are really strong additions to the saga. I go back and forth between ROTS and TPM as my personal favorite. ROTS has the tragic angle and some of the best action in the PT but struggles at times to wrap everything up and set up the needed status quo for ANH. TPM is better plotted and has some really interesting world building. It also has the best lightsaber duel in the entire saga. The climax is admittedly overstuffed though and the first 20 minutes or so feel really rushed. I like AOTC but it looses some points because of the Sifo Dyas mystery angle, which was never really wrapped up until TCW, and some of the more over-the-top romantic dialogue.

Post
#1389473
Topic
Why I Love Prequel Yoda (and what I think people get wrong)
Time

Excellent analysis. The more I’ve watched the prequels the more I’ve noticed how much they add to the characters from the OT.

G&G-Fan said:

When he says “Failed I have” in Revenge of the Sith, he isn’t just talking about losing to Sidious in a duel, he’s talking about how he failed the galaxy because the Jedi Order lost its way.

Yoda’s leaving the battle with Sidious unfinished always bothered me but looking at it this way it starts to make more sense. Believing he’s already failed, he sees no reason to prolong the battle and risk the legacy of the Jedi dying with him.

Post
#1388757
Topic
What is the worst thing in the EU?
Time

Children of the Jedi is a gem and you will not speak ill of it.

That’s what it was called! I read a whole bunch of EU books around the same time and they kinda blur together. I do remember liking parts of the Callista trilogy (I think Darksaber was my favorite) but the ghost thing was weird. I also wasn’t expecting semi-graphic bedroom scenes in a star wars book…

Post
#1387994
Topic
Idea: The King of Kings (1927) Hybrid Cut
Time

I’m not sure if there will be any interest in this but here goes…

I’ve long been of fan of De Mille’s The King of Kings and feel that it is one of his best pictures and one of the best movies made about the life of Christ. With that said I also don’t really think there is a definitive cut of the film. The longer, roadshow version is superior in many ways but the general release saves the Technicolor for the end of the film, which makes the resurrection narrative stand out more. The Criterion DVD for the general release uses the 1931 score for the film’s re-release by Hugo Riesenfeld which I quite like while I find the synth score for the roadshow version rather distracting.

Here’s what I am proposing with this edit.

  1. Replace the technicolor opening scene from the roadshow version with the b/w one from the wide release.

  2. Re-score the roadshow version with the orchestral score by Hugo Reisenfeld (this may be tricky as the wide release is significantly shorter)

For my source I am planning on using the Criterion DVD as its the best release available to the best of my knowledge.