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The Phantom Menace - anyone want to chat about TPM? — Page 2

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The thing I liked best about TPM is that it gave us a glimpse into the world before the Empire. It gave us the Jedi before their fall and before the Clone Wars. I think in Qui-gon Jinn we got a quintessential Jedi. For me that makes it win out over AOTC, even if it does have Jar Jar.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

As someone who grew up with the prequels and can still watch and enjoy them any day of the week, I get why so many young people praise and defend them. If they were your introduction to the franchise, it makes sense that you’d have a nostalgic attachment. I do too, but I also can’t deny the many, many aspects of the films that simply do not work. They all pretty much suck to varying degrees. I wish I could say they didn’t, but they do. Like I said, I still enjoy them, but I can acknowledge that they’re simply not very good movies. And that’s okay.

I feel the same way. The prequels were my introduction to the franchise, and I feel like a lot of the good parts of those movies are being overlooked, but I also agree that they have a lot of bad parts.

I think the tide has officially turned. About ten years ago, you couldn’t find nearly anyone who’d admit to anything good at all about the prequels. Now it’s the opposite, where it seems like many people refuse to accept their poor qualities.

The kids who grew up on the PT are now grown up and expressing their opinion. I alwasys liked TPM and ROTS, even if they have flaws. I love the grandeur of the Old Republic the reveal. They also reveal its problems.

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I don’t think the idea that if you grew up with them they’re still enjoyable is true at all. I used to watch all kinds of total rubbish as a teenager. The great thing about growing up is you can develop your own tastes and reflect on things with 20/20 hindsight. Some things just don’t hold up, others can be appreciated more. The reality is the PT is more well known as a series of memes than anything of note, and a lot of internet blogs trying to suggest otherwise are highly suspicious. But what else is new.

Yub Nub for life

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There is something to be said for seeing it from the other side, that’s not a bad way to behave especially if you’re giving something an honest second chance. I think a lot has to be said also for the influence of just the amount of behind the scenes there are for the prequels, a lot of the craftsmanship in its fine detail and thoughtful consideration gets to shine isolated from the whole.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I’ve grown up with several movies (not just Star Wars) over my time and to this day, I still watch them. They can never get boring no matter how many times I watch it. If you love so Star Wars so much, then you wouldn’t particularly dislike a Star Wars movie. The only reason I don’t praise Disney’s Installment to the Star Wars universe is because I grew up into a different generation of Star Wars. Where life was fun and no criticism was made. But in saying that, I can still watch the Disney’s trilogy even though I dislike it. You enjoy a movie more if it’s a movie you hate. Every movie has it faults.

I specialize in records, CDs, and pretty much anything thats got do with star wars soundtracks. If you have any old records you willing to give up DM me!

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Now please, no more negative talk. This was meant to be an enjoyable discussion referring to TPM. I’m happy to hear you dislikes or approvals about the film, but there need in starting an argument because we disagree with a statement.

I specialize in records, CDs, and pretty much anything thats got do with star wars soundtracks. If you have any old records you willing to give up DM me!

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Mocata said:

The reality is the PT is more well known as a series of memes than anything of note, and a lot of internet blogs trying to suggest otherwise are highly suspicious. But what else is new.

What’s so suspicious about people liking the prequels? The idea going around that people only like the prequels because of the memes is completely ridiculous. It’s just the natural result in a change of perspective. The old guard of the Star Wars fandom naturally dismisses the prequels, since their perspective on Star Wars is so heavily influenced by the OT. But the people who grew up with the prequels accept the visual style of those movies, which makes it easier for them to see both the good and the bad of those movies. The discussions over whether a Star Wars movie “feels like Star Wars” are completely subjective, since everyone’s definition of Star Wars is different.

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RUKUSBUILD3 said:

TPM introduced us to the first interactive CGI character

Actually, Casper was the first interactive CGI character…

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Thanks for the correction.

I specialize in records, CDs, and pretty much anything thats got do with star wars soundtracks. If you have any old records you willing to give up DM me!

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It’s my favourite Star Wars film. That is all, that is all.

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It is far from a perfect film. But i always liked the duel of the fates and how the original edit worked. The original 35mm version. I hate the DVD and Blu ray cuts with added things that slow the pace of the film, and i really despise cgi Yoda in every version since 2011. I also think the original theatrical audio mix of the film was better than every version since. The only thing that came close was the Laserdisc.

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BB-Rey said:

It’s my favourite Star Wars film. That is all, that is all.

Why? I’m genuinely curious. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone with this opinion before.

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Not the worst in the saga.

I specialize in records, CDs, and pretty much anything thats got do with star wars soundtracks. If you have any old records you willing to give up DM me!

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JadedSkywalker said:

It is far from a perfect film. But i always liked the duel of the fates and how the original edit worked. The original 35mm version. I hate the DVD and Blu ray cuts with added things that slow the pace of the film, and i really despise cgi Yoda in every version since 2011. I also think the original theatrical audio mix of the film was better than every version since. The only thing that came close was the Laserdisc.

This. The post '01 cuts are completely unwatchable.

The Phantom Menace: Not good, but not bad. It’s a shame all of the releases after the DVD completely kill the flow of the movie. The extended Pod Race is the worst offender.

The horrible red shift of the DVD and the DNR/sharpening of the blu-ray is just awful. It’s looks like complete shit visually because of the horrible video transfers.

Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping. - DuracellEnergizer

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StarkillerAG said:

BB-Rey said:

It’s my favourite Star Wars film. That is all, that is all.

Why? I’m genuinely curious. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone with this opinion before.

I really love the story told in the film. I ultimately see it as being overall about people helping people and symbiotic relationships. I love how the story is very light hearted but has underlying cynical layers that show corruption and greed like with Watto and his gambling, Sebulba and cheating, and the Trade Federation and their dealings with Palpatine. I feel these things show the seeds of what begins the decay of the Republic as a whole. This is contrasted by Anakin’s desire to help his new friends, Qui-Gon doing the right thing by freeing Jar Jar, and Jar Jar bringing the Naboo and Gungans together. It’s great cause and effect. The characters are all interesting and play off of each other really well. I especially think so with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as you see one following what he feels to be the will of thes Force while the other follows more of the rigid compliance of the Jedi Order. There’s even little subtle moments like Qui-Gon putting his hand on Shimi’s shoulder that contrasts the Jedi later who are slowly losing their compassion. I also love that the Trade Federation is more physics based while the Gungans are more biology and organic based. There’s lots of duality like that within the film. The world building is beautiful with underwater sequences, Courscsnt before it became more commercial as seen in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, and seeing new sides to Tatooine. There’s a sense of scale and atmosphere. It doesn’t feel like everywhere is within walking distance but actually takes time to get to point B from A. The action is some of the best in the series as you have the podrace, Duel of the Fates, taking back Theed, a War and Peace like battle between the battle droids and gungans, and quite a lot more. That’s not even mentioning John Williams’s score or the costumes. Both are truly incredible. There’s a lot going on and it makes discovering new things each viewing all the more exciting!

There’s a lot more I could say about why I love it but that’s just some of my reasons!

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I’ve always especially loved the sounds of Star Wars. In my opinion, the unique sounds are a huge part of what makes Star Wars great. One of my favorites is the the ship in the beginning of TPM (Radiant VII). Not sure why is resonates with me so much, but I just love the sound it makes.

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The scene where you can tell Obi Wan and Qui Gon already knew who the Queen was when she reveals herself to Boss Nass. I also like the scene where Palpatine says he will watch Anakin’s career with great interest, and he is right there at Qui Gon’s funeral. Right there for the Parade that is reminiscent of the end of Star Wars.

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In the TPM rough draft written in 1994, when Padmé’s ship leaves Theed, it sets out as part of a convoy of five identical ships with four decoys.

What’s interesting is that something similar shows up in a mission in LucasArts’ X-Wing: in one mission you have to identify Princess Leia’s corvette among a five-ship group with four decoys. That game came out in… 1993.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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JadedSkywalker said:

The scene where you can tell Obi Wan and Qui Gon already knew who the Queen was when she reveals herself to Boss Nass. I also like the scene where Palpatine says he will watch Anakin’s career with great interest, and he is right there at Qui Gon’s funeral. Right there for the Parade that is reminiscent of the end of Star Wars.

Did they? I used to think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan obviously had to have known, but I got to thinking one day. If you watch TPM from their viewpoint, I don’t think either of them ever sees Padme dressed and the Queen. Every time they’ve encountered her, Padme was a handmaiden and Sabe was dressed as the Queen. Anakin does speak with Padme dressed as the Queen on Coruscant from a distance for a quick moment, but he’s just a kid. So why would Qui Gon ever suspect Padme is the Queen?

I’m sure this has been debated before, so I’m probably not saying anything new, but I just never get tired of talking about Star Wars.

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It’s implied in the novelization when they’re in the hanger as they’re about to leave Naboo that Qui-Gon is well aware of what is going on between Padme and Sabe when they have their “We are brave, your highness” back and forth.

There’s also Qui-Gon’s tongue and cheek moments on Tatooine when he tells Padme “The Queen doesn’t need to know” and “The Queen trusts my judgment, young handmaiden. You should too.”

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BB-Rey said:

It’s implied in the novelization when they’re in the hanger as they’re about to leave Naboo that Qui-Gon is well aware of what is going on between Padme and Sabe when they have their “We are brave, your highness” back and forth.

There’s also Qui-Gon’s tongue and cheek moments on Tatooine when he tells Padme “The Queen doesn’t need to know” and “The Queen trusts my judgment, young handmaiden. You should too.”

I confess, I’ve owned TPM novelization since 1999… and never read it. Those lines of dialogue do seem better if Qui-Gon is aware, but are not deal breakers entirely. I could still see it either way, but will take your word that it’s clearer in the novelization.

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You’ve got me interested in seeing the movie again. I’m going to dig out my laserdisc. I have not watched it since 2005 or so.
I have softened on the prequels quite a bit in the last 15 years. Most of my dislike for them in the beginning i will admit it was because of the originals being suppressed. And believing that they watered down the brand.
I look at what Lucas was trying to do versus the execution of the finished movie.
There are interesting themes in the prequels, bogged down by inconsistent acting and some bad cgi.

Reading the screenplays and watching the behind the scenes stuff and reading about the making of the films at least gives you some idea what Lucas was trying to do. Must have been a daunting task, the scope he had for the prequels in his head and on paper was impressive. Much more expansive than the OT, more worlds and more world building. But to realize that on screen and on a budget required sacrifices. And as easy as it is to write something it is much more hard to realize it, and cgi can only do so much.

I have a profound amount of respect for Lucas as an artist no matter what i think of him suppressing his own much loved films. It was a great sadness to me when he finally retired and sold Star Wars, that he gave up creative endeavors such as directing movies or producing and writing them.

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Yeah, I’m also interested in watching the movie again with these perspectives in mind. I haven’t seen the full movie in a few years, so maybe I’ll gain a new appreciation of it.

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I bet Filoni’s speech in the Mandalorian documentary helped a lot of people warm up to the prequels:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePDiQ1uTrWI

“I love the lightsaber fight with Darth Maul not because it’s a lightsaber fight but because George is so good at crafting why that fight’s important. Every time. Like you know, the Obi-Wan / Darth Vader fight [in Episode IV] isn’t like the most wonderfully staged necessarily combat that you’re ever gonna see but there’s so much at stake. It’s so meaningful when Obi-Wan dies we all feel like Luke. In Phantom Menace, you’re watching these two Jedi in their prime fight this evil villain. Maul couldn’t be more obviously the villain. He’s designed to look evil, and he is evil, and he just expresses that from his face all the way out to the type of lightsaber he fights with.”

“What’s at stake is really how Anakin is going to turn out. Because Qui-Gon is different than the rest of the Jedi and you get that in the movie; and Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows he’s the father that Anakin needs. Because Qui-Gon hasn’t given up on the fact that the Jedi are supposed to actually care and love and that’s not a bad thing. The rest of the Jedi are so detached and they become so political that they’ve really lost their way and Yoda starts to see that in the second film. But Qui-Gon is ahead of them all and that’s why he’s not part of the council. So he’s fighting for Anakin and that’s why it’s the ‘Duel of the Fates’ – it’s the fate of this child. And depending on how this fight goes, Anakin… his life is going to be dramatically different.“

“So Qui-Gon loses of course. So the father figure, he knew what it meant to take this kid away from his mother when he had an attachment, and he’s left with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan trains Anakin at first out of a promise he makes to Qui-Gon, not because he cares about him. When they get Anakin, they find him on Tatooine, he says “Why do I feel like we’ve found another useless lifeform?” He’s comparing Anakin to Jar Jar and he’s saying “this is a waste of our time, why are we doing this, why do you see importance in these creatures like Jar Jar Binks and this ten-year-old boy? This is useless.” So, he’s a brother to Anakin eventually but he’s not a father figure. That’s a failing for Anakin. He doesn’t have the family that he needs. He loses his mother in the next film. He fails on this promise that he made, “mother, I’m going to come back and save you”. So he’s left completely vulnerable and Star Wars is ultimately about family. So that moment in that movie which a lot of people I think diminish, “oh there’s a cool lightsaber fight”, but it’s everything that the entire three films of the prequels hangs on, is that one particular fight. And Maul serves his purpose and at that point died before George made me bring him back, but he died.“

“And that shows you again how the Emperor is completely self-serving. He doesn’t care, he’s just a tool and he’s using people, and now he’s going to use this child. That follows all the way through to the line which terrified me as a kid when the Emperor tells Luke, “you, like your father, are now mine.” And the idea, when I was a little kid, watching that movie of some evil person possessing my father, making him do things or making him be evil was terrifying. That was like a thought that was horrible. Also it’s amazing when you watch Return of the Jedi, that Luke has never done anything that I would call is a bad character, he has a tendency to be dark, and a lot of people wanted Anakin, “oh he should have been darker as a character”. It’s not true at all. I believe Luke would turn to the Dark Side in Return of the Jedi – I believe that was on the table. I believe he would kill the Emperor and because the way George arranged the story I knew that was the wrong thing to do. When he’s saying, you know, “you want your weapon” you know, “Strike me down, I am defenseless”. He wants him to give into his anger. He wants him to give into his hate. And the fear, the structure that George has laid out in all his movies is coming to fruition now. And the only thing that’s going to save him is NOT his connection to the Force. It’s not the powers he’s learned. It’s not all these things that are an advantage to him. That’s gotten him to the table but what saves Luke is his ability to look at all that and look at his father and say “No, I’m going to throw away this weapon. I’m not going to do that. I’m going to let that go and be selfless”. And he says you know “I am a Jedi, like my Father before me” but what he’s really saying is, and why I connect so powerfully to it is, he’s saying “I love my father and there’s nothing that you can do that’s going to change that”. And the Emperor can’t understand that connection. “Why wouldn’t you take someone offering all the power of the galaxy? Why won’t you take this?” And Anakin at that moment has to decide to be the father that he’s never had. He has to give up all the power of the galaxy and save his son. And that’s the selfless act that he does in return for his son. And that’s what saves him in turn. So the son saves the father, the father saves the son, and it works out perfectly. And I draw that line all the way from Phantom Menace to ‘Jedi‘.“

“THAT’S the story of Star Wars. It’s all part of why it works and why we care. It’s not about X-Wings, it’s not about all these things we decorate Star Wars in – it’s important and it’s part of the genius of it. But we soulfully react, like, we don’t just want an action movie, we want to feel uplifted and Star Wars is an adventure that makes you feel good. You know, it makes me feel like ‘Wow, I want to be a part of that’. So that’s what I always go back to with Star Wars is this selfless act and this family dynamic which is so important to George, so important to the foundation of Star Wars. That’s in us. And what I like about it is, it’s really saying there’s a lot of hope out there, that we fundamentally want to be good people, we can all be driven to do terrible things but that we can persevere through selfless actions. So George has this hopeful story and it’s something that he’s reiterated most times I’ve seen him, you know, after we’ve been making things without him is, “remember to make these stories hopeful. Remember to give that to kids because they really need it”. And so that’s just something to keep in mind.”

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Rodney-2187, feel don’t think. Trust your instincts. Haha. The novelization also gives history of the Sith that comes straight from George.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts JadedSkywalker and StarkillerAG after you watch!

I think one interesting thing to note about the Prequels is according to Steven Spielberg in a special called Omnibus (from the lead up to The Phantom Menace) is part of George’s concepts and process for the Prequels was the Sequels. So I do think some of the “Plotholes” like Anakin’s origins were to be explained later. As George told StarWars.com last year during a retrospect for the 20th anniversary of The Phantom Menace that, “Early on, it was that Anakin had been more or less created by the midi-chlorians, and that the midi-chlorians had a very powerful relationship to the Whills [from the first draft of Star Wars], and the power of the Whills, and all that. I never really got a chance to explain the Whills part.”

This is in line with Mark Hamill telling an interviewer in the 80’s that more or less things end in another plain of existence and George discussing things briefly with James Cameron.

There’s also George saying in the commentary for Attack of the Clones that the Clone Wars is very, very important to the whole epic of Star Wars. Around the same time be said in an interview how there’s things in Episode II that connect to VII. I wonder if that could be Sifo-Dyas.

Maybe that one is reaching a little but it does give me the impression he did have a broader vision for the nine part saga even if he denied it happening for a period of time. I think ultimately he wasn’t always trying to link just the Originals and Prequels but set the groundwork for the Sequels if he ever went forward to make them.

It’s little things like these things that really make me think the “Plotholes” were intentionally not resolved and were there for later stories.

I love the Prequels and Originals equally.