I’m so hard to hear that, Warbler. Death is hard, but you and I know it’s not the end. Prayers and best wishes, my friend.
Considering how unnecessarily mean some people were to you, including those who frequently pointed out how words can cause real damage, I’m not surprised. I know I said a couple of times how I didn’t like your intrusiveness, but you toned it down and I think you had good contributions. Best of luck and hope to see you soon.
Warbler, I’m glad your pops is making progress. I’m so sorry he has to go through this but hopefully he mends soon. The doctor just told me my dad will need rehabilitation as well. I guess we’re going through similar experience. Your dad is in my prayers as well.
Yes Warbler, my thoughts and prayers are with you.
I haven’t given an update for a bit. My father had to wait 12 days before the doctors were finally able to perform his bypass surgery. His initial heart attack is often described as the “Widow Maker” because it so thoroughly kills the majority of those it afflicts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_interventricular_branch_of_left_coronary_artery#Widowmaker
They did not immediately perform the surgery because it was believed that his neurological damage would be so severe due to the poor circulation of his heart immediately following the heart attack. Their protocol was to first induce hypothermia for 24 hours to preserve his mind as much as possible and see if there was anyone upstairs worth saving.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_temperature_management#Cardiac_arrest
My dad woke up on his own after maybe 12 hours of hypothermia, unexpectedly, and his mental capacity seemed to remarkably intact, much to the amazement of the physicians caring for him.
After several complications including pneumonia, excessive internal bleeding (he was given heparin, a blood thinner to prevent further blockage, but was difficult to control as he would continue to bleed far longer than expected even after heparin was stopped), and other things, they finally went ahead with the surgery on Monday. There they discovered that he had a hole in his hear in the left ventricle, the chamber of the heart responsible for circulation to the entire body. Of all that my father had survived, this was the most amazing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocardial_rupture#Prognosis
Mortality for this incident is 100%! Nobody survives this! My father had been living with this for several days. As the tissue died from the lack of circulation to a portion of his heart, the hole developed a few days after his heart attack. It was undetected. He should have bled to death. But miraculously, the pericardium, the lining outside the heart, somehow had adhered directly to the cardiac muscle, when normally there is a space between the two. As it held tightly there while the hole developed, the blood was able to clot over the hole, thus preventing him from bleeding to death. The cardiac surgeon performed a double bypass and stitched up that hole.
Now my dad is not yet out of the woods. While he continues to slowly improve, there is always the chance that something will go south. I just have to say here that while I know there are many who do not believe in God or the power of prayer, and while you all can point to the (now slightly less than 100%) remaining people who have had the same complication and died, I personally attribute all the miraculous perservation of my father’s life to a God who loves my dad. I am so grateful to God for whatever reason he felt my dad still had some time left on this earth.
I respect all your views, and no one need comment on my spiritual interpretation, as I do not wish to stir up a religious debate. But where we all can agree, it is truly astounding that my father’s heart is still beating, that he can understand what I said to him today over the phone, that he continues to recover in spite of complications, and I am so grateful that my this man yet lives. Thank you all for your well wishes, thoughts, and to those to whom it applies, your prayers. I also am grateful to those with whom I’ve had tiffs in the past who put aside any harsh feelings you may have for me to wish my dad and family your kind thoughts. Thank you all. I’ll likely never meet any of you, but even across the Interwebs, I am grateful for your kindness.
Thank you so much. From what I gather, his heart was remarkably undamaged, all things considered. Now the big complication is that he has developed pneumonia. The man is 74, so this is when pneumonia can start to be a lethal diagnosis. I pray he will continue to fight the challenges his body faces. If you pray, please pray for my dad. If not, keep your fingers (or teeth) crossed.
Thanks for the support you’ve all shown so far.
He’s looking much better today. I wasn’t with him last night, as he’s in another larger city but there was some speculation he might not make it. I’m with him now and it’s far more promising.
Thank you all. Prognosis might not be as optimistic as I was hoping but it looks like it may be days before they will even consider surgery.
My dad nearly died today of a heart attack. He’s not out of the woods yet, but I thought he was a goner for sure when he first arrived at the hospital. It was close. Needs open heart surgery. Here’s hoping he’ll be ok.
darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.
No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point.
I don’t remember Dek or Warbler ever saying that they felt they were being treated as if they were intellectually inferior.
I don’t think anyone in particular feels you were calling them that. I don’t feel like you were insulting me personally. Just religion in general.
Look, I was indeed criticizing you harshly, deliberately being insulting for my amusement. I am trying to tone it down because I do want you to know I’m a rational human being and I don’t want to taint your view of my arguments anymore. I want you to consider them, even if you ultimately disagree. But I still am blunt when I feel it is appropriate. I don’t think you have been terribly insulting, but that is in part because I feel your arguments have been weak. I feel you do have a generalized view of religious persons that indicates a belief in their inferior reasoning. You’ve made statements that essentially state religion prevents critical thinking, use of empirical evidence, and leads to prejudice. Your phrasing wasn’t gentle, and if I’d felt you were some threat to my point of view, I might have been more insulted. I’m just saying you do come off as a bit arrogant in how you portray your POV.
Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.
Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.
It’s different because black culture effects the way black people act in a much simpler way then being a Christian. There are Christians who don’t believe in hating gays and making women subservient to men and there are Christians who don’t agree on the prerequisites for going to Hell etc. so it’s as clear cut as you’re making it out to be because there are many many types of Christians who practice their Religious beliefs in different ways.
I fail to see the difference at all and don’t even fully understand your logic here. Black culture is a complex thing, much like religion. Religion really is a culture, or perhaps a sub-culture, but then again, so is black culture, WASP culture, etc., all falling under American culture. All these cultural norms affect our perception of the world, and all of us have prejudice, whether we care to admit it or not. Don’t oversimplify black culture. The analogy is perfect.
Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.
You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.
I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.
I think using key words in my posts and making statements about them even though you know damn well what I’m talking about counts as extrapolating.
I actually was quoting exactly what you said.
Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?
“Hate the sin, love the sinner”
That’s why I brought it up
Which has been called here justification for bigotry.
And like I said before there’s nothing wrong with being religious. I just don’t like the Religions themselves.
Meaning I don’t like The Bible, The Quran or any other types of holy texts. I may like certain teachings in them but that doesn’t do much in the long run.
A religion is more than just the Bible, and the Bible is more than just the verse you find offensive. There are good messages in there, and they are ancient texts, ancient guidelines for ancient people. And those teachings have shaped the world you live in. As I pointed out to Jeebus, religion guided the founding of this country and its very liberating ideologies. Religion has promoted equality among humans.
But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”
Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).
You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.
And what is the center of Christianity? I’ll give you a hint; it’s the thing I said I hated that started all of this.
You said, “Some of us don’t hate you (as in Christians) just the Religion itself…” and now you’re saying, “I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general.” You are a contradictory man.
Actually the center of Christianity is Christ. And Christ preached a very good message, applicable to today. His standards are so high, no one can truly live by them. But we can aspire to do so.
There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.
But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.
I hated religion far more than I do now but never did I ever say that I hated Christians. That’s even more telling
See, again you use the word religion, not the Bible. “I hated religion far more than I do now…” You hate religion. I don’t really care, but it does indicate to me a certain level of bigotry. Such hatred does affect your judgment of those who are religious in a prejudiced way. But as I said above, we are all bigoted to some extent.
Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?
Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.
Am I crying?
Probably
You’re a funny man, but such does nothing to help your argument.
I thought I was trying to have a (half–mine of course) intelligent discussion with you. And you continue to use much stronger language, indicating a much stronger emotional response and greater sensitivity to what I’ve said.
At least my response wasn’t predicated on putting words in your mouth and trying to tell you what you said isn’t really what you said. Aside from you shooting baseless accusations it takes a special kind of arrogance to tell someone what they really said and feel.
What words did I put in your mouth? I have quoted you. I am telling you what such statements mean.
If I said, “I hate black culture but I don’t hate black people,” you would be within your rights to still call me a racist. I could argue, but you didn’t put words in my mouth.
No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.
See: Lord Haseo 😉
WRONG ATHEIST
I know it deepy affects your worldview, but you are a bigot. DENIAL.
In your skewed worldview? Yes. In the worldview most people know to be true? No.
I’m sure you’re a nice guy in real life. But that doesn’t mean you are not or can not be a bigot. I’ll say it again, we all are. You have simply revealed your reasoning here.
I’d like to give my general opinion on religion. I can be terrible at explaining things well, so bare with me 😛.
(Also note that I have minimal knowledge on religions other than Christianity, and that I will be referring to Christianity specifically.)I am a Christian. I believe that Christ is true. That the man named Yeshua (we call him Jesus, the Christ), whose life is documented in the Bible, is the son of God. To me, these things are truth. Not merely thoughts that I exercise as possibilities. Not something I just tell people “I believe it is true.” The Lord God almighty reigns over the Heavens and the Earth. Christ Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.
Having stated that, I would like to continue in saying that I really kinda hate religion. Now, I realize that Christianity is a religion/religious belief by definition. That is not what I’m referring to. I’m talking about the religiousness that blinds people from the truth.
Religion is just rules. It’s not about truth, and love, and relationships. It’s about following the rules, and asking for forgiveness when you break one; and by doing so you buy your eternal life. As long as you follow God’s ten commandments throughout the rest of your life (and be forgiven when you fail), you’re good to go.
It’s also generally held under heavy organization. I’m specifically referencing the Catholic Church, though I’m sure there must be organized religion on a similar level somewhere.
It was the religious men who crucified Jesus on the cross.
I’m not really sure where else I’m goin’ with this, so I’ll just leave it at that.
I’ve noticed a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church lately. I actually really love and respect that institution. Sure, it utilizes more than the Bible as a source, but I assure you, so does Protestantism, even when they pretend not to.
More likely in Utah. Believe it or not, I have many loved ones who are Mormon as well! And I also have a loved one who has left the faith, yet has remained very loved by his family.
Maybe, but it is a problem that seems more prevalent in Mormonism than nondenominational Christianity. I’ve noticed that Mormonism demands (what I would call) unhealthy devotion to the church. Particularly with how they send youth, often inexperienced, on missions in communities completely unknown to them.
What exactly is unhealthy devotion? Most statistics indicate higher levels of functionality among members of my church than others, and largely in part to our devotion to our ideals.
http://religionnews.com/2015/07/02/5-reasons-why-mormons-are-happier-says-researcher/
http://www.patheos.com/Mormon/Why-Mormons-Good-Neighbors-Larry-Wilson-07-02-2012
I mean, there is the point where people become fundamentalist and demand that others accept their religious ideals, leading to intolerance. But that is not the message of my faith, and most Mormons are better off than the average American.
I’ve served a mission and I have no regrets.
What would a healthier level of devotion be?
More likely in Utah. Believe it or not, I have many loved ones who are Mormon as well! And I also have a loved one who has left the faith, yet has remained very loved by his family.
Let me ask you an honest pair of questions. Yes, of course there will be follow-up, though it may be several days before I can spare a few minutes to return to this. Here they are:
Has religion contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
Evil things are done in the name of religion, but that does not make them speak for all religion. Nor do all religious or religious people bear the sins of those who have committed evil in their name.
Also, just because crimes are committed by people who are religious does not mean you can ascribe their crime to being religious.
Actually I can, it’s pretty easy to do when terrorists are going around screaming “Allahu akbar” and named their organization the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. Perhaps I misinterpret your point, though.
You do, but the fault is mine, actually, as I did not phrase correctly. Yes, some kill in the name of religion. Yet some religious people kill for other reasons. What I should have said is that you cannot ascribe all crimes committed by religious people to their being religious.
So ultimately, while evil has contributed evil to this world, I caution you not to paint all of religion as evil based on what some have done with it.
Has atheism contributed any evil to this world? Please cite examples, and be fair.
Not that I know of, but I assume you’re gonna refer to the Communist regime of Stalin. As far as I know, the actions of Stalin were not committed in the name of atheism, he did it because he wanted power. Stripping people’s religion from them was an effective demoralization tactic, so that’s what he did. And it’s not like communist Russia was a godless society, their god was the state. Bear in mind, I don’t know a whole lot about communist Russia.
Now there are points where I would bring up Communist regimes like the USSR, but I wasn’t planning on doing so yet. Since you brought it up, however, let’s go ahead and address it.
First, it’s always easiest to state that the Soviet Union exercised a religion wherein the state was the object of worship. Really that would be more accurate of Fascism/Nazism, whereas there was more of a personality cult surrounding Lenin and Stalin, and there was an ideology that demanded exclusive devotion. One could not be a member of any political party except the Communist Party, and anything else was seen as disloyal. But such excuses do not pardon the fact that this was a nation that actively fought against belief in God or other organized “traditional” religion. There were no rites, holy books, or prayers. What existed was propaganda, suppression of dissension, and cover-ups of the crimes of the leaders and the Union as a whole. But the nation was, for all intents and purposes, actively atheist.
Which leads to my second point: any ideology can be used for evil. How many atheists have called for the destruction of religion. Look at the likes of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, and others. They cling not only to an ideology, but in fact are so firm in their conviction, so aggressive in their stance, so negative in their rhetoric, so once-sided in their arguments that…one could almost consider them a religion! Sure, they are not as severe as the USSR, but really the same ideological purity exists on a lighter level there. But how tolerant are they of other viewpoints? Do you think they put up with atheist fortune tellers? Atheist Jains, Buddhists, or Confucianists?
I disagree, I’ve never seen an atheist lobbying about the evils of Buddhism. They focus on Islam and Christianity. Islam because it inspires terrorism, and contributes to the oppression of women and gays. Christianity because of the few Christian politicians who try to incorporate their religion into politics. Tennessee tried to get the Bible to be the official state book, but luckily the governor vetoed it. That’s the kind of thing that atheists fight against.
And that’s fine. It’s their right to fight it, and there’s nothing wrong with it. But there are so many who actively oppose religion altogether. I named some names. Remember:
Religion championed the notion enshrined in the American Declaration of Independence that " all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Abe Lincoln promised God that if He would change the tide of the Civil War, Lincoln would end slavery.
William Wilberforce was converted to Christianity, and then committed his life to ending slavery in the British Empire.
Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. fought for equality among the races.
54% of Christians are supportive of homosexuality in society, as are 74% among other faiths. Interestingly, 17% of non-religious folks are not supportive. Now obviously there is a discrepancy in your favor, but consider that religious folks are not wholly against it, while atheists are not wholly for it.
Most Americans preach tolerance and love. Most Americans are religious. Most progressive ideals throughout our nation’s history were promoted by religious believers.
Religious people are more generous in their donations.
Religious people are happier.
Actively involved religious people are less likely to be involved in drugs or crime.
But to return to my original reason for asking these questions, let’s recap:
Yes, there is evil committed because of religion.
However, as atheism is not an ideology (supposedly), there cannot be any evil because of it.
But then it begs the questions:
What good has religion contributed to the world?
Though I think it’s misguided, it gives people emotional comfort.
It’s done far more than that. See above.
And if atheism is not an ideology and cannot contribute evil, then how can atheism contribute any good?
It can’t, and it doesn’t have to.
Then why advocate for it? Why condemn religion? Much good has come into this world from it. Even in a Utopian Star Trek future where humanity leaves religion behind, only the most ignorant would regard religion as worthless. It has contributed immensely to the benefit of mankind, and a few people who’ve been burned feel some need to pick a few points of disagreement and tear down the whole idea.
No, I’m just pointing out his lack of authority on the issue. If anything, I have more authority from that standpoint, but I also stated that he could cite more authority.
Sure, but I was thinking of Hitler himself, who was raised Catholic. I don’t really consider the individual soldiers in the German Army; I’m sure most of them weren’t aware of what they were fighting for. As for most of Hitler’s SS thugs, I don’t know what their religious identities were. The problem I have with your definition of Christianity is that there are sects that elevate the Pope or Joseph Smith, for example, (I hope Ender can elaborate on his views) to the level of near-divinity. The Pope takes the title of “Holy Father”, which is only used in the Bible to refer to God himself.
Joseph Smith is certainly not elevated above humanity in Mormon teaching.
“Praise to the mannnnnn who communed with Jehova…” ( sang that many times as a child)
He is quoted as saying he even elevated himself above others. He said not even Jesus could match the work he had done (restoring the church).
Any firsthand citation on this one? Sounds like a secondhand quote from a reliable apostate. Can you point this out in something not called The Godmakers or some equally disreputable source?
Mormons most certainly elevate him, and I would know after 15 years from birth in the church. Active family with father who served as bishop and stake president. All my siblings have gone on missions. Religion breaks apart families. My parents will die thinking they failed me. They’ll die believing that them and my sisters will live on forever but that I’ll be in hell. It’s a sick and despressing reality.
Wow! 15 whole years! I’m 34, born in my church, and now have a fully developed frontal lobe. You will certainly find sources who can stake greater claims to authority, but you sir are not an authority on Mormonism at such a young age having left it. I bet I’ve read more anti-Mormon literature than you, and here I stand (actually I’m sitting on my couch, but still…), firm in my faith.
That’s the one reason I can say I hate religion. It has been the cause of a lot of sadness and pain for me. No matter how far I go in school, how much I help people or how good of a person I try to be each and every day, because I don’t believe Joseph Smith restored the church I will always be seen as the most ultimate failure in my families eyes. Religion cut me deep and I don’t forgive it for doing so.
Well, that’s a shame, because Mormonism promotes a greater moral of forgiveness. I thought atheists had the moral high ground in this discussion.
That said, I can understand how you feel hurt by your departure from the Church and how it’s affected your relationship with your family. You haven’t shared much, but I’m curious how cruel your family has been to you. I suspect they’re actually very accepting and loving towards you, even if you have strayed in their eyes. They may be disappointed, but I doubt you’ve been shunned in any way. If you have, then the fault is the people, not the religion.
darth_ender said:
You’ve clearly assumed it, but whatever, I’m too busy to find examples right now, so let’s just assume you really are giving religious people, myself included, fair consideration as intelligent human beings.Which is what you should have been assuming this whole time. Funny thing is you’re the only one who seems to notice this intolerance you’re speaking of.
No, I’m not, but I’m also hitting home a point. Do I really care if you’re a bigot? No, not really. You just are. That doesn’t even make you a terrible person. We’re all bigoted in some ways. But you have no shame in your bigotry because you feel you are justified. That’s how many people felt about their anti-homosexuality bigotry until recently. It was just acceptable. Some bigotry is more socially acceptable than others in certain circles, and that of religions, particularly Christianity, is very acceptable among atheists and agnostics these days.
I am not referring to your ignorant generalizations of the Bible, I am referring to the fact that you literally said, “I hate Christianity.”
There are no generalizations. There is good stuff and there is bad stuff. For me the bad outweighs the good because there are other works in which I can learn the same lessons that The Bible teaches. Also “I hate Christianity” =/= “I hate Christians” but then again you already know that.
But remember how I deliberately made a point that hating black culture is racist? If saying, “I hate black culture” = “I’m a bigot against blacks,” then “I hate Christianity” = “I’m a bigot against Christians,” even if it doesn’t mean “I hate Christians.”
I don’t have time for a youtube video. I will simply say that if it was racist of me to say I hate black culture, it is equally hateful of you to hate religion. That was why I used my dramatic example. I have little time to post here, so I wanted to get some attention and draw the parallel that if you hate the chosen culture of a people, you in many ways are hating on the people themselves. Sorry youtube video, and sorry Lord Haseo.
It’s just someone saying “bullshit” but I’m glad I didn’t waste the time to find an informative video…not that it would have helped any.
Then I’m glad I didn’t waste my time watching it.
Also that’s a very poor example you’re using as the line between saying “I hate Black Culture” vs saying “I hate Black people” is very minuscule while hating Religion and being okay with Religious people are completely separate.
Please enlighten me how it’s different. It affects your judgment of me. It affects your judgment of many religious folks. You may be “okay” with them, but you perceive them as unscientific, bigoted, and promoters of hate. Such is not always the case. You allow your judgment to be tainted by your hatred.
Boy, you sure know a lot about me for having interacted with me so little and really not understanding my posting history. Nice assumptions.
You have been more or less the same thing but okay buddy.
I’ve just quoted what you said and made points about it. I didn’t extrapolate any further than that.
Not even sure why you bring this up, honestly. I am calling your hatred of Christianity bigotry. Why did you even say this?
“Hate the sin, love the sinner”
That’s why I brought it up
Which has been called here justification for bigotry.
But here I want to reassure you that I didn’t call you a bigot for hating the Bible. I am calling you a bigot for literally stating, “I hate Christianity.”
Christians are a group (which happen to fall under that umbrella of Christianity, which you hate).
You know what the funny thing about this is? This all started because I said I hate the Bible. I didn’t say that I hated Christianity or even Religion in general. Just some food for thought. Furthermore I believe the only person to outright say “I hate Christianity” was Darth Lucas and he clarified that he meant that he hated the Bible and not those who read it. So basically you’re bitching about absolutely nothing.
http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/960187
There’s actually a study that shows that Atheists tend to know more about what’s in Religious texts (primarily the Bible) than actual believers. As someone who used to be a “militant Atheist” a few years back I learned many things about the Bible to fuel my hatred of it and to know what I was talking about when I debated people.
Bravo. I’m not one of those. But that is interesting that you used to be a “militant Atheist.” Very revealing.
Citation please? Just because I call it like I see it doesn’t mean I’m being overly sensitive. I have far harder discussions in real life with atheists. Why would I be too sensitive to handle featherweight arguments on an Internet board with people I will never meet in real life?
Pick any of the posts you’ve made accusing people of being bigots because they don’t like your religion. Also you bring up a good question but I have no idea why you’re crying so much to people you will never interact with face to face.
Am I crying? I thought I was trying to have a (half–mine of course) intelligent discussion with you. And you continue to use much stronger language, indicating a much stronger emotional response and greater sensitivity to what I’ve said.
No, I think any firmly held belief can do that. Including atheism.
See: Lord Haseo 😉
WRONG ATHEIST
I know it deepy affects your worldview, but you are a bigot. DENIAL.
Then where are adults going to come from?
Looks like it’s time for…the talk!!!
Dun dun dunnnnnnn!
Sure, but I was thinking of Hitler himself, who was raised Catholic. I don’t really consider the individual soldiers in the German Army; I’m sure most of them weren’t aware of what they were fighting for. As for most of Hitler’s SS thugs, I don’t know what their religious identities were. The problem I have with your definition of Christianity is that there are sects that elevate the Pope or Joseph Smith, for example, (I hope Ender can elaborate on his views) to the level of near-divinity. The Pope takes the title of “Holy Father”, which is only used in the Bible to refer to God himself.
Joseph Smith is certainly not elevated above humanity in Mormon teaching.
I was thinking that in the Mormon faith Joseph Smith played a role in the final judgement. Apparently it was Brigham Young, his successor and respected Mormon leader, who stated that Joseph Smith was the one who essentially chose who gets to heaven. How much more elevated can you get? Sadly, the LDS website has no clear answers and I honestly don’t have the patience to dig much deeper. Hopefully Ender can shed light on his position.
Brigham Young’s statement is as follows:
“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.”
It is intended to be understood in the same light as Jesus Christ’s own words in Matthew 19:
“27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Note some key phrases. First, Jesus Christ has delegated his authority to judge to his chosen servants, and clearly the original apostles are the primes judges next to Jesus Christ himself. Next, note that Brigham Young specifically stated that Joseph Smith’s judgement will apply to people of this dispensation. We Mormons believe that God has revealed himself multiple times, dispensing knowledge to mankind (a dispensation), and that there has been a falling away each time, and that Joseph Smith is the head of the last dispensation before Jesus Christ comes again. In that position, we believe he too has delegated authority, beneath the original apostles and beneath Jesus Christ, but still relevant to those who have lived in this dispensation.
Make sense?
My best friend passed away last night. Heart attack. He was only 45. I’m still in shock. He was truly a brother to me.
It feel silly to be posting this here, but I’ve already done the rounds of phone calls and emails telling everyone and I need an outlet of some kind I guess.
He never posted here, but looked to me to keep him informed about Despecialized and Revisited. He loved Harmy’s work and was beyond excited for ESB:R.
My world is very different now.
I’ve been out of town or I’d have posted sooner. My condolences, Ray. Hang in there, my friend.
Just took the kids to Legoland for the first time. We had a great time. Traveled in our new van and avoided any accidents, though at one point we came close on the freeway when a motorcyclist apparently had his vehicle poop out and several cars had to slam on their brakes on the freeway. All went well otherwise and we’re home safe and sound
Everything is awesome!
Haven’t heard that quote before, but I’m skeptical of it’s legitimacy. I value things like this;
more than a single quote that he may or may not have said.
Here’s one of the many quotes that contradict the one you’ve posted; “We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian.”
Look at this with an open mind, please.
Even if Hitler wasn’t a Christian, the overwhelming majority of people who committed his atrocities for him were. And if that’s the case, then I could have just as easily said;
Do you? The homogenous group of Christians known as we believes in loving everyone, even their enemies? Maybe you personally do, but these guys don’t;
Here was where I planned to introduce Communism with pictures of the Red Army and The League of Militant Atheists.
And while I can see the display of the KKK, as these men justified their evil with religion, the Nazis were evil due to their devotion to the state, and some of them happened to be religious. There were atheists among the Nazis as well. And for all the diverse and contradictory quotes, the infallible Wikipedia tells us that most scholars believed it was Hitler’s intent to eradicate Christianity from the Third Reich ultimately.
The point is that calling it a sin can (in certain deranged people’s minds) justify hate and violence, and that makes it hate by extension at the least.
So because someone misinterprets what I believe to justify their hate and violence, means that I hate as well?
I’m not understanding this logic.
It means that your religion helps to encourage hate, intended or not.
Even though we believe in loving everyone, even our enemies? Even though we believe that committing acts of violence is also sin?
Those people ignore that.
But there are those who emphasize these greater laws, even when they perceive homosexuality as sin. So why paint them all the same? Why hate all religion when religion first promulgated such universal love?
Or do you really think there aren’t plenty of examples of people using religion as an excuse for violence against gay people?
Of course there are.
Ok, so my logic is sound then.
As for the other point, granted, but I’m reasonably sure violence against gay people is much more common than violence against anti-gay people, and further that religion often plays a part in it.
Atheists and atheist nations have been hateful and prejudiced as well. The difference is that atheists have been quicker to be more accepting in recent decades (as in tens of years compared to hundreds of years of intolerance), whereas religious folks have taken longer.
Note to ywhx, this last bit is ad hominem, as it does not address the issue, but merely attempts to defeat argument by attacking the man. I point this out to you because you, feeling like Lord Haseo, would not point out his faults. To really hold a legitimate point of view, you must be willing to challenge your own views. I do not see you as willing to do so.
I am always willing to change my views. I always view my opinions as in a box and can be changed at any time. Some opinions take a lot to change, and I haven’t seen anything here that makes me want to change an opinion.
I brought this up because I notice you are not one to play fair. You will jump right in when you agree with someone, but not when you disagree. Have you not read the difference between his posts and mine? Yet whom did you call out as fallacious and ad hominem-ing? Me.
However, I will give you credit that you have repeatedly shown a change of heart on this site when you felt someone made a good refuting point, so I appreciate your flexibility there.
But most atheists hate God
How can you hate something that you believe doesn’t exist?
WYSHS
And…
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/01/anger-at-god-common-even-among-atheists/
