cutnshut

We started off this subject trying to break ESB down into 3 acts - which we did, but Xhonzi and yourself are thinking of it in terms of the entire saga - where i was breaking it down as if it was the first sequel to Star wars, which is the way it was written. Like you said - it seems clear now that George Lucas had no overall plan untill he made return of the jedi - I think this lack of focus for the overall story is evident in ESB - many people were totally confused by vaders revelation to Luke, why were so many people confused after seeing it? I dont remember seeing Empire at the cinema - but i certainly remember seeing Return of the Jedi at the cinema as soon as it came out! and i remember feeling disappointed that Yoda confirmed everything Vader had told Luke. Which thinking back now suggests to me - Lucas left the plot of episode VI open to different story lines - its possible he could have made a very different story where Vader had infact been lying to him and that would have been plausible too - because of the way ESB was filmed.

Nowadays there are way too many sequels and the magic of the first 2 get kinda lost becuase of the way Lucas decided to continue the story - this alters your perspective when you watch these movies again.

yes they do! ....LOOKING AT YOU FINK!

Admiral! there be whales here!

And...then.....?

GGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........

....ok im going to say this once more, then that's it I've lost too much hair to continue this conversation!

DARTH VADER has NO character development during Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back! im right and you're all ninnies!

I have a sad now....

I dont really dislike you and im sure everyone else thinks you're the monkeys nuts! and i was very impressed with the work you did.

so there you have it, you daft sod!

A B C said:

cutnshut said:

Gaffer Tape said:

cutnshut said:

Do i have to explain EVERYTHING i say, just use you're imagination princess )

Awesome!  In addition to being the Don of this forum, I now also acccept the title of Imagination Princess!  Bow to me!

 If you were a nice looking lady i'd bow to you.....but i've seen you on utube and i know thats not so!

... Yeah, that's because she's now a used Princess Imagination.

 Nobody Likes you very much ABC!

Gaffer Tape said:

One might argue that he had character development occur offscreen in between Star Wars and ESB when he finds out that his son is alive and working for the Rebels.

Ok lets argue!

In ESB there is no certainty that Darth Vader is Lukes Father - In the original theatrical movie which is the only version that counts untill, Adywan releases his!. There is no character development of Darth Vader happening off screen or otherwise... as a character he just wasnt designed like that - he is purely a villain - he starts off a villain and he ends a villain. All the crawl says about Luke and Vader is that "Vader is obssessed with finding Luke Skywalker" nothing else..... During the conversation with the Emperor, Vader never refers to Luke as his son. (remember at this point, all the audience knows is that Anakin Skywalker was killed by Darth Vader).

During the fight with Luke....he tells Luke hes his son....but i dont think anyone really believed that untill return of the jedi was made. So i wouldnt call it proper character development. It is certainly character Development for Luke because what Vader say's has some emotional impact on him.....but Vader is unchanged by anythning that happens here.

previously i said that Darth Vader's character development is him being redeemed.

But now i think his whole character development for Vader begins - when Luke surrenders to the imps and they are brought together again. Then Vaders character does start to change....

Gaffer Tape said:

cutnshut said:

Do i have to explain EVERYTHING i say, just use you're imagination princess )

Awesome!  In addition to being the Don of this forum, I now also acccept the title of Imagination Princess!  Bow to me!

 If you were a nice looking lady i'd bow to you.....but i've seen you on utube and i know thats not so!

Frink is going mental lately, is it PMS?

xhonzi said:

4) Who built Stonehenge?

I did.

 You LIAR!!!!!! you're not even english you delinquent!!!

Do i have to explain EVERYTHING i say, just use you're imagination princess )

Frink, you bog eyed, jovian marmalade yellow.....thing.... whatever!

005, I make perfect sense to me - and even if everyone else only sort of understands a fraction of what im going on about - well i consider that mission accomplished.

THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT!!!!!!......

Bubble Butt's!!

RIGHT THAT DOES IT FINK!!! TO HELL WITH PURGATORY!!! IM GOING STRAIGHT TO PERDITION!!

Well ok, if you're going to reply that way - you're saying the cause of the problem is Darth Vader - yes, i agree with you.

Xhonzi the numpty:

You feelin' me? ( < thats just wierd!)

Darth Vader [has] no character development [in ESB].)

You're joking, right? (NO!)

I was replying originally to this! NO IM NOT JOKING!!!! --when was the last time you watched ESB???  you gludrib drkun sprike!

well you can take yer freytigs pyramid and shove that up frinks arse an all! as i dont see a director having a "Freytig" moment to say "Hey everyone lets pause here and see how what we've done compares to Freytigs triangle! ....oh.....uh.....mmmmm ok this movies a disaster....its doesnt work! ---- ok maybe thats what GL SHOULD have done when he made the prequels but otherwise its just high-school textbook carp that you've read and think oh cool maybe i can sound like i actually know something and make someone else look like the idiot for a change....lets make movies that fit this line of incidence graph or whatever........carp!

And no Darth Vader has no character development other than at the end of return of the jedi where obviously his character does change once he saves Luke from the Emperor. Its contamination from the prequels thats clouded your judgement! I don't class what he says to Luke at Bespin as character development - since you can't tell if he's telling the truth or not, it could be just an evil ploy to sway Luke to the Darkside! - Its character development for Luke, sure, as it has a big impact on him!- but Darth Vaders only ever on screen for a few minutes each time, says a few lines and then its back to the rebels again. Thats not the kind of role that would class as "Main Character or worthy of character development" - Any character development for Darth Vader has only come from the prequel movies. 

Darth Vaders character development during the OT:

(below is just clarify that there is no character development for the big DV!...his role...beliefs do not change throughout the movies)

Star wars - Start's evil - end's Evil (plus looks a bit stoopid spinning around in his ship untill infinity!)

Empire Strikes Back - Start's Evil, End's Evil! (yeah see how you like it rebels!)

Return of the Jedi - Start's Evil - 15 mins before finale - Ends Good.

Fink get off my screen you yellow git!

I've noticed theres a bug been going on for ages but no-one has done anything about it - its called TV's Frink!

vaderios said:

Reposting some old but and some new ideas for death star :)

-Angel

 OMG! wow! - I think these are your best work yet Vaderios/Angel! I'd love to have poster sized versions of these i could put on my wall!

ESB - my take on the act structure.

I am sick of the movie crawls and the opening theme - I've had 30years of them? (roughly) and cant take them anymore! Why does every star wars movie have to start that way? ... there is no reason! only because the first one had it - why not start them off differently use a bit of imagination - like they did with the star trek movies!. anyway.. *rant mode off*

PS i dont care what anyone else's opinion is!! :p

ESB

Act1: Imperials have chased our heroes across the galaxy, on the remote iceworld of Hoth the Rebels led by Luke Skywalker are putting together the final touches to their latest base. Meanwhile....The evil Lord Darth Vader, Obsessed with finding young Skywalker has launched thousands of remote probes into space....

Establish Rebels - Establish Imperials (and establish Darth Vader is infact alive!). introduce new character development of Han & Leias relationship....and Luke is still getting into trouble. Act 1 establishes the heroes and villains and the main plot - The rebels are being hunted by Vader and the Imperials. Act one ends with the evacuation of Hoth, Han & Leia escape aboard Falcon and Luke travels to Dagobah.

The introductions are over - the might of the empire has been established, and the heroes split up to further their character development.

Act2:

Two stories make up act 2 which i'll refer to as a and b:

A: Luke arrives on Dagobah and begins further training, the main thought here is that don't judge someone by their size. this is not the main part of act 2 but rather - provides character driven interludes from the Han & Leia story that help to build tension and suspense. to what otherwise would be a very action orientated act.

B: Han and Leia - This is the main focus of the act - Han and Leia appear to be pursued by Vader as he attempts to capture them. Its very exciting, but generally they go from one bad moment only to find themselves getting in a worse situation.  During this Vader, employs the bounty hunters to track down the millenium falcon. A cat and mouse type movie instead of the heroes journey type formula of the first movie.

Act 3:

All the threads of the story merge here at Bespin: Luke lands, Leia and Han have been captured - dramaticness ensues, the Empire appears to have the upper hand at each turn and finally the Rebels escape but at what price? movie ends.

Hows that?

xhonzi said:

cutnshut said:

thats great but its still 5 acts :p

It's true.  It's 5 segments.  But, as far as I understand the 3 act structure, it makes sense to call them prologues and epilogues, because the central 3 Acts ARE the 3 Act structure.

 Now im no film maker.... BUT... act = segment here so there are no prologues and epilgues - I know you want to fit it to the 3 act structure but its just not working and ...but im, ......*droid mode activated* "Where are you taking them?....wait, uh...oh You're under arrest!"

so.....still 5 acts! :p

NERF troopers!

(ok, lame.........but i saw this pic and thought it was cool)