chyron8472

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

Why does it matter that fewer women like Star Wars?

It doesn’t matter. People like what they like. They don’t what they don’t. It’s not for you to feel oppressed on their behalf when they couldn’t care less about it.

I’m saying it’s not a problem in and of itself but it is emblematic of other problems that exist in our culture

Okay, yes, the culture does play a large part in encouraging people to prefer certain things. I don’t know if it’s a “problem” or not so long as someone can like what they like without being ridiculed. (I’m looking at you, Frink. -.-)

It is not for us to say every demographic should find equal interest in things (including Star Wars). In my view tolerance and equality are similar beasts, approaching the same argument from opposite angles.

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

The latter is another one that you’re not quite as right as you think you are on. Rabid football fans are split almost evenly between men and women these days.

But is it a problem if more men than women like Star Wars?

Why should it be?

There’s no reason why Star Wars should appeal more to men than women

You don’t know that.

Star Wars is a universal story about good vs. evil, hope vs. despair, and selflessness vs. selfishness.

Honestly tell me why should Star Wars appeal to men more than women?

You boil the story down to that to suit your argument, but there’s more to the films than just that.

Yes but that’s what they’re about. There’s nothing inherent about “Star Wars” that should be more suited to a man than a woman. The films aren’t about the male experience specifically, nor should they be. They should be for everyone.

You might say, well the OT only has Leia and then only a couple very minor female roles. To which I say yes, that is definitely a problem with the OT.

It is not the job of Star Wars to cater to all.

Why does it matter that fewer women like Star Wars?

It doesn’t matter. People like what they like. They don’t what they don’t. It’s not for you to feel oppressed on their behalf when they couldn’t care less about it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

If I may, since we’re arguing equality, why does the culture tell us men shouldn’t like cartoons originally targeted toward female children?

I knew you were going to bring this up and the fact that you would compare the two is ludicrous. Star Wars is not completely and entirely targeted at children.

My point is, why does it matter?

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

The latter is another one that you’re not quite as right as you think you are on. Rabid football fans are split almost evenly between men and women these days.

But is it a problem if more men than women like Star Wars?

Why should it be?

There’s no reason why Star Wars should appeal more to men than women

You don’t know that.

Star Wars is a universal story about good vs. evil, hope vs. despair, and selflessness vs. selfishness.

Honestly tell me why should Star Wars appeal to men more than women?

You boil the story down to that to suit your argument, but there’s more to the films than just that.

If I may, since we’re arguing equality, why does the culture tell us men shouldn’t like cartoons originally targeted toward female children?

DominicCobb said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

The latter is another one that you’re not quite as right as you think you are on. Rabid football fans are split almost evenly between men and women these days.

But is it a problem if more men than women like Star Wars?

Why should it be?

There’s no reason why Star Wars should appeal more to men than women

You don’t know that. You don’t know why women prefer what they do compared to what men prefer, other than to assume the culture told them to.

yhwx said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

Because of our culture. Our culture says that men should like certain things and that women should like other things. There is a small biological factor, but it’s mostly culture reinforced since the time we are babies.

My 2yo daughter likes pink, and yellow, and a host of girl-centric things that I did not directly tell her to prefer. She is only 2. She was born with certain preferences.

Cultural things can be subtle when you’re already immersed in them. It’s not explicit.

But you’re saying things must be made equal among male and female for the simple reason that they… should. Women like different things than men do sometimes. It doesn’t make it wrong. It doesn’t mean there’s inequality.

yhwx said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

The latter is another one that you’re not quite as right as you think you are on. Rabid football fans are split almost evenly between men and women these days.

But is it a problem if more men than women like Star Wars?

Why should it be?

I view it as a problem, because there’s no reason for it, and I tend to favor more equality in these situations. But this is a concept you seem not to understand.

Your viewing it as a problem does not make it so. But maybe there is a reason for it and you are just not aware.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

Because of our culture. Our culture says that men should like certain things and that women should like other things. There is a small biological factor, but it’s mostly culture reinforced since the time we are babies.

My 2yo daughter likes pink, and yellow, and a host of girl-centric things that I did not directly tell her to prefer. She is only 2. She was born with certain preferences.

I find this argument that children are wrongfully indoctrinated by the culture into liking things they shouldn’t as a rather arrogant presumption.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

The latter is another one that you’re not quite as right as you think you are on. Rabid football fans are split almost evenly between men and women these days.

But is it a problem if more men than women like Star Wars?

Why should it be?

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why are there more female fans of Sex in the City than there are male fans? Why were there more male fans of American football than there are female fans? Men and women sometimes have different tastes.

Agreed, and that does not make it a “problem” when fewer women than men are perceived to like Star Wars. It just is. It is not a problem.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

Frink, don’t be an ass.

As soon as Warbler admits he doesn’t know jack shit about women I’ll stop “being an ass.” Saying that no women like Star Wars is disgusting and offensive.

Offensive?

Ignorant, maybe. But offensive?

I’m offended on my wife’s behalf, on my daughters’ behalf, and my dog’s behalf. All other women too, although I’ll admit it’s slightly presumptuous of me to be offended on behalf of all women, or at least all the women who believe they shouldn’t like something based on their gender alone.

Going back to something I’ve said on other topics, it’s not your place or mine to tell women not to be offended by this.

I’ll say it’s not our place to tell women they should be offended. Perhaps women needn’t bother with it at all.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Yes, there are female Star Wars fans, but not as many as there are male Star Wars fans.

You should have said that from the beginning.

Regardless, you might ask yourself why.

Why Star Wars? Why not sci-fi? And who can say if the question is answerable?

Your statement suggests Warbler knows the answer and can reach it if only he stops to consider it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron8472 said:

Frink, don’t be an ass.

As soon as Warbler admits he doesn’t know jack shit about women I’ll stop “being an ass.” Saying that no women like Star Wars is disgusting and offensive.

Offensive?

Ignorant, maybe. But offensive?

yhwx said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

You know, I’m starting to think this thread was a better idea than y’all said it was.

Because it somehow helped?

Not that I can see.

It could have helped.

By getting more diverse people to join the forum?

The thread could have diagnosed the problems that are getting more diverse people to not join the forum, and therefore, put the structures in place that would help more of them join the forum.

And as I said, discussions about diversity are useful. It raises awareness about the issue, which is important.

Its a Star Wars forum. Its not going to attract women.

That’s a problem.

Its a problem a that this place is a Star Wars forum or that Star Wars just doesn’t attract women?

The latter.

No offense but do you actually know any women? This is extremely ignorant.

You called me out, and you are 100% right. I am wrong right here. I think I read or interpreted that question wrong. I think it’s bad that this forum does not attract women. There are also deeper societal reasons as to why this is the case.

I am sorry for my accidental ignorance in this situation. People must always acknowledge when they are wrong. Again, sorry.

As I edited in above, the attitudes some display here […] both in off-topic and outside of it, are not exactly welcoming to women.

This was the point I was trying to make.

This may be true, but I don’t think the opinion of women’s breasts being considered private parts is unwelcoming toward women. The whole discussion, maybe, but not that opinion.

yhwx said:

yhwx said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

“A woman’s body isn’t treated as anymore obscene than a man’s.”
“Tell that to the top half of a woman’s body.”

How is this a confusing or controversial response? Is it wrong? Men can walk around without a shirt, women can’t.

female breasts = private part private parts need to be covered up.

But why? You refuse to answer that question.

Why does the question need to be answered? American culture equates female breasts as being private parts.

Demanding the answer to “Why?” is as good as asking “Why not?”

American culture, like all other cultures, is pretty dumb. Who cares what it equates?

My point, AGAIN, is no one is making any objective argument as to why women are harmed or oppressed in any way by wearing bras or bikini tops when and where men are not required to.

Who the hell cares about whether’s there an objective argument? Seems freaking pointless to me.

So what you’re saying is that because there is no factual evidence to back up your argument, that acquiring any is declared a worthless endeavor?

Frink, don’t be an ass.

Why would you say objectivity is not important to a discussion?

yhwx said:

chyron8472 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

“A woman’s body isn’t treated as anymore obscene than a man’s.”
“Tell that to the top half of a woman’s body.”

How is this a confusing or controversial response? Is it wrong? Men can walk around without a shirt, women can’t.

female breasts = private part private parts need to be covered up.

But why? You refuse to answer that question.

Why does the question need to be answered? American culture equates female breasts as being private parts.

Demanding the answer to “Why?” is as good as asking “Why not?”

American culture, like all other cultures, is pretty dumb. Who cares what it equates?

My point, AGAIN, is no one is making any objective argument as to why women are harmed or oppressed in any way by wearing bras or bikini tops when and where men are not required to.

Who the hell cares about whether’s there an objective argument? Seems freaking pointless to me.

Because subjectivity can always be refuted. Obviously. Objectivity can be denied, sure, but that doesn’t change the facts it is based on.

moviefreakedmind said:

chyron8472 said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

“A woman’s body isn’t treated as anymore obscene than a man’s.”
“Tell that to the top half of a woman’s body.”

How is this a confusing or controversial response? Is it wrong? Men can walk around without a shirt, women can’t.

female breasts = private part private parts need to be covered up.

But why? You refuse to answer that question.

Why does the question need to be answered? American culture equates female breasts as being private parts.

Demanding the answer to “Why?” is as good as asking “Why not?”

American culture, like all other cultures, is pretty dumb. Who cares what it equates?

My point, AGAIN, is no one is making any objective argument as to why women are harmed or oppressed in any way by wearing bras or bikini tops when and where men are not required to.

“Equality” is about women being treated fairly. There is no evidence that wearing clothing that covers breasts is unfair. There is no evidence that it should be declared as not indecent. And most women to not disagree.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

There is a particular male-centered-ness to Warbler’s and chyron’s arguments. Why does the male body have to be the standard that we measure women against?

It’s not unreasonable.

No its ridiculous. I am not using the male body as the standard that we measure women against. There is nothing male-centered about my argument.

You are saying that the female body is different than the male body. You are comparing it to the male body. Your argument is male-centered.

He is male. He is speaking from a male’s point of view. Of course he is going to center his argument on and derive opinion from his personal life experience. Calling him out on it serves no purpose than to presume the male opinion on a female-related cultural issue inherently has less merit.

Many women also agree that the female breasts should be covered.

That’s not the point.

Yes it is. The point is “why should it change from what it is besides because you want it to?”

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

With that said, I don’t think women everywhere should suddenly go topless.

sexist! How dare you suggest we should continue this oppression of women!

You’re making absolutely no sense now.

That was sarcasm.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

“A woman’s body isn’t treated as anymore obscene than a man’s.”
“Tell that to the top half of a woman’s body.”

How is this a confusing or controversial response? Is it wrong? Men can walk around without a shirt, women can’t.

female breasts = private part private parts need to be covered up.

But why? You refuse to answer that question.

Why does the question need to be answered? American culture equates female breasts as being private parts.

Demanding the answer to “Why?” is as good as asking “Why not?”

Adding legal ramifications to the topic is why talking about things like abortion are so complicated. Talking about why it is morally wrong or culturally shunned is one thing. Talking about what laws should should be enacted to protect or prevent it is something else. We can’t even agree on the simple idea that women are somehow wronged by classifying their breasts as private parts.