It’s basically all in the stickied spoiler thread.
Don’t go in there. Trust me. Even if you’ve seen the movie.
Now you’re just making me want to read it… without having seen the movie first. Argh.
Don’t. If there ever was a movie to keep yourself from being spoiled about, it’s this one. I will not say why.
That isn’t to say she doesn’t have personal demons. We just don’t know what they are besides her parents.
And I still say Ren could have been lying. Someone more than Ren ought to know who they were. After all, Luke got confirmation from Yoda in ROTJ.
Based on this thread alone, it’s safe to say that The Last Jedi is the Windwaker of Star Wars films.
I hadn’t thought of it like that. 😃
Well, many people grew to like Wind Waker over the years. Maybe giving it time will change things for TLJ, after people get over the shock of it being cel-shaded, so to speak.
Basically someone used the r-word in reference to a character in the film, which triggers Frink because [not relevant]; after which, Frink said f-off a-hole, among a few other things through back and forth posts. And now he’s banned because Jay says he “thinks Frink needs to learn how to express his displeasure with others’ posts without flipping out every time.”
And that’s it. No need to read the Spoiler thread.
Frink has been banned for the “asshole” thing. I’m going to be reviewing the thread myself in the coming days and will probably issue additional bans.
I haven’t seen the movie yet, so thanks guys.
I missed some private messages, and have made the situation worse.
Is it too late to unban Frink, Jay? This board would not be the same without him. Having been given some context, I can understand his reaction. I was being very insensitive. I apologize to everyone here for being a dick, especially to Frink.
I think Frink needs to learn how to express his displeasure with others’ posts without flipping out every time.
Am I allowed to agree with this?
Kylo should have been in some “different” organization to start this trilogy, not just Empire 2.
This is true. If anything, I don’t give TLJ guff for throwing out ideas TFA set up. I’d more readily give TFA guff for setting them up in the first place since they weren’t all that great anyway.
Your film will not be made stronger if it torpedoes the foundation it is supposed to be building on. Even if the foundation is flawed.
But it doesn’t. TFA is not the foundation. The OT is. TLJ does not torpedo the OT.
TLJ starts exactly where TFA ended. Except it goes for something completely different in terms of themes and supposedly the story.
Yes. That’s why it’s good. It throws unexpected twists into the works to keep the story from being obvious.
It continues to mirror the OT, though.
No it doesn’t. It makes you think it will but then it suddenly changes tack.
Kylo should have been in some “different” organization to start this trilogy, not just Empire 2.
This is true. If anything, I don’t give TLJ guff for throwing out ideas TFA set up. I’d more readily give TFA guff for setting them up in the first place since they weren’t all that great anyway.
Your film will not be made stronger if it torpedoes the foundation it is supposed to be building on. Even if the foundation is flawed.
But it doesn’t. TFA is not the foundation. The OT is. TLJ does not torpedo the OT.
For TLJ to take a turn different than the TFA suggested is not torpedoing the foundation of the story.
Serious question, on an almost different topic:
Is it supposed to have been some rule that lightsabers must be held to be activated? People accuse TLJ of adding or breaking rules established by previous materials. But I want to know if Ren turning on Luke’s saber without touching it is one of them.
Kylo should have been in some “different” organization to start this trilogy, not just Empire 2.
This is true. If anything, I don’t give TLJ guff for throwing out ideas TFA set up. I’d more readily give TFA guff for setting them up in the first place since they weren’t all that great anyway.
@Frink
I think Ryan’s probably just saying there can be a logical in-universe explanation why there are fewer females to be seen where an open firefight can ensue. Yes, there are (likely) real world sexist reasons, but they don’t necessarily need to be assigned to Star Wars to explain such things in-universe.
I for one never noticed that there are only 4 female speaking parts until you guys pointed it out. I am neither bothered by that nor am I bothered by (or take significant notice of ) the presence of so many women in the ST. There are more women. Okay, sure. No big deal.
JEDIT: I’m saying it’s no big deal for the story. I’m not a woman so I don’t feel the implications of there being more women, but for myself I’m not misogynist and don’t want to taint enjoyment of my favorite movie franchise by coloring it with real world gender equality issues.
Looks like there actually was an agenda in all this ST.
Sadly fairy tales all root in the old world.
Please fire Kennedy
Please fire yourself (from being a poster in this thread).
Someone’s getting a little defensive.
I reckon he’s allowed to be concerned about modern day politics infiltrating Star Wars.
Right, how dare they give women equal footing.
Not really the point. Women have always been the smart ones in command in Star Wars.
Point is, telling someone to go away because you disagree with them is not a valid argument.
There are exactly 4 women with speaking roles in the OT. Three of them have less than a minute of screen time.
He said to fire Kennedy because she has an agenda. I don’t see why I should have to make a valid argument when he isn’t either. Calling for her to be fired is just as inflaming, if not more so.
Star Wars is in another galaxy far far away.
So the “humans” are aliens who just look like humans. This isn’t something happening on Earth.
So this other galaxy has to be male-dominated to the point of ridiculousness?
Also, most of the OT is pretty much in a warzone. If you watch WWII type movies, there aren’t a lot of women in the warzone, etc.
Yeah, there’s a reason for that, and it’s not because women can’t fight.
No, just saying that Star Wars takes place in another galaxy with 100% aliens.
And so what?
Also, watching the OT, don’t really see in those movies where all these “women” humanoids should have all shown up in? Death Star, Dagoba, Endor?
Maybe because the movies were made in the late 70’s or early 80’s?
Are you seriously trying to argue that a male-dominated galaxy was supposed to be part of the story?
I’ve watched the OT over 10 times and I’ve never once asked myself where are the crowds of women at.
Most of the movies are a battle scene, and it seems like most of the “aliens” that we can see in the flesh are creatures and robots.
Women are only supposed to be at home with the kids?
Don’t start down this road, please.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::
Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).
Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::
Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).
Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.
Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.
So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.
Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.
So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?
The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.
TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.
I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.
I’d say you could even have an imperial remnant being the villain group and still tell a completely original story. However, I feel like that was never an option with Disney. They just hired people to do something very similar to the OT.
(Once again, this is just a feeling I get from it all. I personally don’t know anybody who attends Disney staff meetings.)
I can say this. The prequels feel like their own thing. Even with Clone Troopers and Palpatine. Those movies I never felt like Lucas was rehashing the OT.
As much as I hate the prequels, I agree. TPM relied heavily on the story of ANH and added some politics for padding, but there was an original idea behind both AOTC and ROTS. If only those basic ideas were handed to a competent screenwriter and made into films by a skilled director, those could have been worthy additions to the saga. As they stand now, they are beyond saving, but not for the lack of originality.
Whereas TLJ, conversely, was handed to a competent screenwriter and skilled director but is likewise irredeemable due to lack of originality?
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::
Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).
Not sure if I understand. Are you saying I (and the minority who feels the same way) just don’t want new Star Wars films? If so, what are you basing this on?
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
and i reject the notion that these movies are the same but just sligtly tweaked. ::shrug::
Is it just a case of there being people who want new films, and people who don’t, or is there really more to it? I am not convinced that it is anything more than the first option (some people just don’t want new films, despite what they say).
Well, I think it’s actually quite a challenge to find a story beat, that isn’t in some way derived from the OT. It usually either does more or less the same, or the opposite. If it was really a new story, it wouldn’t depend completely on OT events.
Yeah, i am saying it seems like people don’t want new star wars films, based on the fact that i completely fail to understand what people want. You can tell me that it is too derivative, or to similar, or didn’t do this or that. but i really have never understood what you or those other people would actually want to see.
So of course, i know that those who say these things often make claims about what they want. But despite this, i really don’t believe that they actually know what they want. Sure, that is me being a bit judgmental, but that is the truth about how it strikes me.
Once again, I want new Star Wars films. I quite liked TFA and R1 despite their flaws. I am just baffled that where most people - even some of its harshest critics - see originality in TLJ, I see just a slight variation.
So what again didn’t you like about TLJ, other than its supposed lack of new ideas? Because I thought TFA had no new ideas either?
The (not so) slight rehash of TFA was an issue. But back then I truly believed it served a specific purpose. To “begin to make things right”. Reintroduce the familiar and introduce the new, so that from there the story can go where it has never gone before. And then the rehash kept going, while most people applauded for something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars.
TFA and TLJ wouldn’t have been a rehash if there was no “New Order” type thing in these new movies. i.e. no Death Star, no Storm Troopers, No Star Destroyers, etc. and then you don’t get any rehash.
I wish I could go to an alternate universe and watch their ST that didn’t have a “New Order” type thing in it.
I’d say you could even have an imperial remnant being the villain group and still tell a completely original story. However, I feel like that was never an option with Disney. They just hired people to do something very similar to the OT.
(Once again, this is just a feeling I get from it all. I personally don’t know anybody who attends Disney staff meetings.)
I can say this. The prequels feel like their own thing. Even with Clone Troopers and Palpatine. Those movies I never felt like Lucas was rehashing the OT.
I don’t feel like TLJ is rehashing the OT. In fact, I feel like people expected it to rehash the OT and are angry that it didn’t.
They’re also angry because they thought they knew the motivations of Luke as per the OT and are offended that his ST character doesn’t fit into the box they wanted for him to fit in.
at which point he suddenly becomes a retard.
Oh fuck off already.
Before I just disagreed with your opinion on a film. Now I think you’re an asshole too.
How do you keep avoiding moderator warnings with all fights you start
Go ask them, but maybe it’s partly because I don’t use “retard” as an insult?
I have to admit, that’s a pretty weak defense.
“Retard” as an insult is offensive, but “asshole” is not. Telling people to “fuck off” is not, as being belligerent is also not.
Umm… okay.
I love how you took a carbon copied scene and just pointed out how slightly different it was, and claimed that it was extremely original. “Oh but Snoke interrogated Rey, the Emperor never did that to Luke” oh boy you’re right how could I be so stupid Rian Johnson must be a creative genius!!
Strawman argument. This was not remotely argued. No one said TLJ was extremely original, and no one is worshipfully singing Rian Johnson’s praises.
It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.
So maybe they shouldn’t try? Leave the originals and make some new franchise instead of trying to reboot an old one.
Just a thought.
Tell that to George for trying to throw the OUT in the trash in favor of his Special Edition edits.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.
You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.
You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.
It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.
Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.
That’s not plot twist galore, that’s a variation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/plot_twist
plot twist
nounAn unexpected development in a book, film, television program, etc.
You can’t possibly tell me with a straight face that you expected Snoke to die when he did. Now that he died in the second film, that makes him no longer akin to the Emperor, since now there is a whole third of the trilogy without him. Palpatine was an integral part of the third act of Return of the Jedi. But Snoke is dead. Snoke is now no longer a part of the story going forward. And that’s a twist because everyone expected him to play the part of the Emperor from start to finish.
However, the throne room sequence is directly derived from the OT, and the twist comes from it’s position in the trilogy, and the fact that Kylo stays evil.
Yes. Still a twist.
Why is there a need to challenge the older narratives of Star Wars?
There isn’t a need. There was a decision that was made to do it by the one who wrote the story.
I never read much of the (Legends) EU novels. Did none of them ever challenge expected tropes, or assign unexpected depth to an established character?
Plot twist galore.
-.-
A plot twist does not mean “entirely original.” It means you expect one thing to happen, but something else happens entirely. You’re following the story, and you think you can see where the plot is going with this, but nope. Actually this happens instead.
I shouldn’t have to explain what a plot twist is.
It’s not a variation. Star Wars is fantasy adventure, and in fantasy adventure there are certain tropes and certain normative sequences of events that happen. The wise old man that trains the young pupil. The evil big-bad with whom there is a final climatic showdown at the close of the story. The proverbial countdown clock to destruction that gets deactivated at 1 second remaining. TLJ throws many of these ideas out the window.
Snoke is not the Final Boss. Finn did not disable the tracker. And Vice Admiral Holdo had her own personal Kobayashi Maru. The film hits you in so many ways that you don’t expect, and people hate it because they’re too narrow minded to accept a story that does a lightspeed jump right through their expected headcanon.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.
You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker.
You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.
It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.
Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.
That’s not plot twist galore, that’s a variation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/plot_twist
plot twist
noun
An unexpected development in a book, film, television program, etc.
You can’t possibly tell me with a straight face that you expected Snoke to die when he did. Now that he died in the second film, that makes him no longer akin to the Emperor, since now there is a whole third of the trilogy without him. Palpatine was an integral part of the third act of Return of the Jedi. But Snoke is dead. Snoke is now no longer a part of the story going forward. And that’s a twist because everyone expected him to play the part of the Emperor from start to finish.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
amazing, every single word you just said is wrong
Cute, but nah.
chyron8472 said:
TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.I reject this notion that TLJ “dared to be new”. It’s pretty frustrating seeing that posted everywhere. It’s doing the same damn thing all over again, just with different characters and in a slightly different order.
No. TLJ has plot twists galore. The main thing about the film is you think you know what’s going to happen but then it doesn’t. And that’s why it’s great.
You think Snoke is going to be the next Palpatine (ie. big bad who dies at the end of the third film), but he’s not.
You think Luke is going to mentor Rey but he doesn’t.
You think Leia is dead but she’s not.
You think someone or something on the Light Side is connecting Rey and Ren, but it’s Snoke, but it’s again not really.
You think Finn is going to destroy the tracker but he doesn’t and gets caught. You think there’s no way out except then BB-8 shows up in a chicken walker after you forgot he was even there.
You think Poe is going to save the cruiser but he doesn’t.
You think it’s the Vice Admiral coming through the door but it isn’t.
You think Luke is on the planet fighting Ren but he’s not.
You think Ren is going to kill Rey but he doesn’t—he does exactly what Vader wanted to do in ESB but couldn’t.
It’s the best thing about the film. It keeps throwing curve balls.
Oh, and that business about Rey’s family being nobodies from nowheresville, Ren told her that, so there is no guarantee that he was not lying. But even if he wasn’t, I like the idea that not the whole of the The Force hinges directly on descendants of the House of Skywalker (as many people speculated that she was a daughter of Luke or Leia). As has been pointed out, many fans are now trying to speculate who “broom boy” at the end’s parents might be, when the point was that the Light Side would still continue with or without the Jedi Order, and in people whom you don’t expect.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.
My reaction to captainsolo’s review.
Actually, it was very well put.
I think people have this notion of what Star Wars is supposed to be, and whatever that notion is, it’s fairly well boxed into a space that is unattainable for new content. Like it has been said: TFA played it safe and people hated it. R1 took a tangent with new characters and people hated it. TLJ dared to be new and unexpected and people hated it.
It’s like so many other long-standing franchises that have a cult following. You just can’t win for losing while trying to be the slightest bit creative.
WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT, WE WANT OUT
<.<
>.>
…Umm… okay.
Anyway, most devices and sets don’t even support h.265 yet.
Because everyone on this forum loves RedLetterMedia so much:
Not sure if serious.