captainsolo

I have thought about this topic for ages!

The VHS and LD look to use the same master. The LD was brightened by the operator for CRTs. (From Widescreen review articles on both films) I have both VHS and LD and have compared the two. The VHS has an even brighter look due to the pan and scan done and an even greater contrast boosting.

Returns has the same video history. The initial DVDs for all four films used the previous video masters and maintain the video-ized look. With the higher resolution, the video nasties are easier to spot. When properly calibrated on a CRT it is possible to get something more akin to the theatrical darkness.

The SE masters stuck are more correct in resolution but maintain a level of video brightness not in prints. The Blu-rays (SEs in 1080p) are closer to the accurate look but still seem a bit off in terms of color depth and darkness.

I viewed Batman for the 25th Anniversary and set my monitor down levels to try and find a balanced look more in line with the print reports. After doing this I toggled between the LD and BD and found that in terms of basic color they are pretty near one another, but the former has that inherent softness indicative of a 80's/90's video transfer. My two cents: However despite being technically darker and sharper the BD does not feel as natural as the LD. Once darkened quite a bit, the LD feels like almost 16mm. It's one of my favorite discs.

The new 5.1 track allows for a bit more breathing room and allows for one to hear the high end more clearly than on the LD PCM. That said, I still like the PCM. I assume the 5.1 is derived from the 4 track master (LCR, filtered out low bass for LFE, mono surround split) despite having a tiny bit of stereo separation in the surrounds. (The 70mm release was a Dolby 4 track with mono surround).

Joker's reveal is a great example of how to do this. No matter what I put my levels at, no transfer can have the face in complete darkness. There is an outline where you can make out a face just barely, and if you are looking closely enough you can make out a faint ghostly visage. That's about what I think the print would have resembled. It also feels like something Burton would do-almost Grissom's A Christmas Carol for a brief second.

The big thing is not necessarily the darkness but the color depth and black levels that have been fubared. I have not seen a Batman print, but the Returns studio archive print from last year that made the rounds revealed that the video transfers on the sequel were severely lacking in depth and blacks thus making the effects and sets stick out like a sore thumb.

I made a self calibration shot using that cowl close up in Returns to try and describe what the print was like. It's the color depth and black levels that are dense and intricate. I actually think Returns has a deeper palette due to Burton having full reins and being shot in the LA studio under refrigerated conditions. The first film was on the Pinewood set and has always had a grainier and hazy look to it.

I have a feeling if the BD could be addressed, the first film would not be so difficult. Returns would take a helluva lot of work to match the archive print. (That print was so dark and so dense that I felt it resembled paintings. Of course it was Technicolor.) And poor Forever looks pretty bad on BD.

And for all three I really prefer the Dolby Stereo matrix. They may not be as cleaned up or fully discrete, but they honestly perform better. You could probably do a better 70mm recreation for the first film with the 2.0 PCM than the 5.1. And only a handful (11 theaters worldwide) even heard the Returns 5.1 theatrically. That track was done as an afterthought.

The new transfer overdoes it with the timing, but the idea is at least in the right place....if this were a fan edit and not a supposed restoration.

There is a reason why restorations are not timed to match IB prints. They are NOT a true reference as each print can vary from each lab in each country.

And this disc overdoes it. It has the warm feel of the Italian transfers of the first two films and then goes way beyond that in the digital domain. It's as if you sat there and cooked the over-bright MGM extended 35mm for hours upon hours.

And what did they use for 4K scanning? The restored MGM source?, the o-neg?, the MGM held source, presumably the United Artists held neg? or an Italian source?

Who knows? where's the information? Why doesn't somebody involved say, hey guys-here's what we did and with what.

Here we get the usual MGM mono downmix of a 5.1 re-purposed track. And unlike the old discs where the Italian mono was at least intact, we get the restored German mono instead. It at least sounds very good, but unfortunately being another foreign dub has different levels of effects, music and dialogue throughout.

Back to the freaking drawing board. WTF goes on at MGM/Fox when they do all this stuff? I'd be far happier with battered 35mm from the archive scanned at 2K and dumped on a BD-50.

DrCrowTStarwars said:

There is a difference between an adaption and a remake and what is more you should only do a remake if the original was lacking in some way and I have yet to see any proof that any director in Holywood can one up Hitchcock.

As for the remake of The man who knew too much,everyone makes at least one mistake if they work on movies as long as Hitchcock did and that was his. The original didn't have a thing wrong with it and it's pace was nice and tight. Remaking it just to use colour and big name stars was a bad idea and didn't work.

This idea that every movie should be a remake of an older movie and making new movies or adapting books that haven't been made into films before is some how wrong is what is killing Hollywood and is the biggest reason I rarely go to the movies any more.  Nothing creative or original gets released any more.

 ...Well...you see I think the '56 remake gets the short end quite often. It certainly drags in a few places, but the overall thematic quality to the story and characters far outdoes the 1934 version which in comparison is a bit clipped due to the shorter runtime and technical limitations of a British production at the time. Technically it is a masterpiece, with the Albert Hall sequence remaining one of the great moments in cinema. Stewart foreshadows his Scottie characterization in Vertigo, the hugely underrated Doris Day is really convincing as the distraught mother, and overall the '56 version feels much more polished than the original. The current transfers are s***, and the film is still being neglected by Universal after 30 years of ownership.

FanFiltration said:

X-Men  (2000) 7/10

Good cast and decent writing, but suffers from a poor production design.

X2 X-Men United (2003) 8/10

More solid production value, and more involved story.

X-Men: The Last Stand (2006) 5/10

A very disappointing entry, and one that is also a very mixed bag. Great casting choice for Beast, but some of the costumes looked terrible. Some of the scenes are good, but the majority is just garbage. That entire concept with the Golden Gate Bridge is utter crap. Not the world's worst film, but far below the standards set in the first two movies in the series. 

X-Men Origins: Wolverine (2009) 5/10

Yet another disappointment. This felt more like "X-Men Lite" then a stand alone Wolverine adventure. Also the story just re-treads old ground with the Striker story.  The casting of Liev Schreiber was the best thing about the film. I was truly starting to lose faith in this series at this point.

X-Men First Class (2011) 8/10

Now that is more like it! A return to form with an amazing cast and engaging story. This film will be re-watched by me a number of times in the future.

The Wolverine (2013) 4/10

Fine production values (yet a few very bad green screen scenes), interesting scenic locations, completely boring and ridiculous -- even for an" X-Men" film. My least favorite of the entire series. 

 A good summary FF. I plan on seeing DOFP at some point, but don't really have much hopes for it being really spectacular. I'm really underwhelmed by this series overall--especially in how very little is ever developed other than Jackman's Wolverine. The best films are X2 and First Class, and my favorite part of them all is Brian Cox's wonderful Stryker. I wish they had just followed him for a movie to be honest.

Jack Ryan Shadow Recruit-A dull, tepid, uninspired pointless waste. Thinking man's thrillers are dead, and the Ryan series was long pissed away by Paramount. I'm not a Clancy expert but shouldn't they have used Costner as an older troubled Ryan in the midst of a grand crisis?

1.5 ball out of 4 bored Kevin Costners.

CEOT3K

Never have I seen this all the way through. Finally did with the Criterion CLV 1977 theatrical and must say that somewhere along the way, Spielberg must have forgotten why he started making pictures. This is a reminder of why we make pictures, why we hold faiths in the inexplicable, how damn good Richard Dreyfuss is, how wonderful Spielberg's innate decisions can be and of what science fiction can provoke in our hearts and minds.

The LD is faultless and original save for one 30 sec shot from the asinine Special Edition. I compared the three cuts with the new BD and prefer the '77, plus the Criterion to my eyes has better color. The sound mix has stereo surround on the new release (not original) and is too clean for a 1977 film. The Dolby surround mas straight from the 1980 master, and is as close as one can get to the original 1977 70mm that many claim was never equaled.

4 balls out of 4 crazy ideas to present aliens. Unforgettable though not perfect.

The Hunt for Red October-to get the bad taste out of my mouth from the new film I had to go back to this. There should have been a sequel, there should have been more Baldwin Ryan adventures, this should have spawned a successful and innovative series that blended action filmmaking with thinking man's writing. But Paramount said let's dump it. Go figure.

I think this is really almost as good as McTiernan's work on Die Hard. It's much more subtle and puts no foot out of place. The original LD retains the warm look of release prints and is framed closer to a 70mm print. The audio is the 35mm Dolby Stereo and while not as fully detailed as the later discrete remixes, I prefer this track for the overall better presentation in the lower frequencies. The new transfer is good but lacks the color accuracy of the original.

This film is so good that our favorite Scot is a believable Soviet submarine captain.

4 balls out of 4 guys crawling around in steam vents.

Wow, I can't believe this is actually happening even after all this time. I still remember that first clip showing the Frankenstein projector rig with the little point and shoot camera and thinking to myself, this is one of the most promising things I've ever seen. Though I miss the blog we can still get techy enough here.

All these shots to me immediately suggest the look and feel of the JSC which has long been a favorite of mine but with an added inherent depth that is hard to describe. It's an incredible thing to be able to clearly see the different generations of effects as they were originally processed without having to look through layers upon layers of video and post processing.

I hate my life until moments like this. This is probably the easiest example of how hard it is to get ESB's color right. The carbon freezing chamber is a delicate wash of orange with only a hinting or red against grey/black metal and soft dark blue against black voids.

God, this looks good. And with the last clip, I jumped up and shouted in excitement when I saw the matte lines on Luke's X-Wing.

We sound nuts. But in a good way. ;)

Thanks for doing this, I've never seen the film before and was waiting to get it on LD to avoid a remix and mis-transfer of elements, but you've done the work to get this film back to what is arguably as close as we can to a correct print. The new BD looks like a fresh scan that has been over-processed into a look that is not accurate to the source.

Damn, why do I have to be broke when stuff like this happens? ;)

I really hope this can happen, as nothing else is going to be like an Italian IB. If it does get screened, the easiest way to check for which version it is is to look for some of the scenes cut from the US/International version.  (Blondie/Tuco extra scenes in the desert and stagecoach, Angel Eyes at the Confederate fort, Blondie/Angel Eyes at campsite etc.) These should all be present in an Italian print, with the exception of the grotto scene which was reputedly only at the premiere before it was dropped.

Awesome news. MM2 was screwed up by somebody with this fresh HD scan of the Australian uncut neg. The cinematographer has gone on record with how difficult it was in the labs to push the IP for release prints to get that dark saturation and deep red/browns of the desert. Thus it isn't this way on the negative, and that's why the BD is the way it is. They did not replicate the post-production processing, and the US DVD utilized some print/IP of the edited US release version which maintains the intended look.

BTW, the boxset has the new encoded disc, but ironically if you were like me and got them seperately-the new MM2 disc has the same individual cover art but has been bleached of color like the feature itself!

Interested to hear if there are any differences in LD audio Jonno, I oved you old track and had long wanted the remastered LD.

Thunderdome looks and feels correct on BD. The transfer feels more natural and less video-ey than the poor flipper DVD. The 5.1 isn't bad but I still prefer the dirtier matrix original.

Wow-the color, depth and overall clarity are going to be incredible. Of the three, ROTJ gets the short end in home video with its more modern film stock looking like fuzzy video most of the time and lacking in both color and fine detail.

The ONLY SE change that was effectively done was the 1997 re-scoring of the end celebration. But I have come to understand the power of Yub Nub and its need for preservation. The original 35mm Lapti Nek sequence will be outstanding.

By now I think it's time we stop hating on ROTJ so much and accept it for what it is. This is something I realized a little while ago. As kids it was our favorite, and then at a certain age we were not allowed to enjoy it anymore. It's a simply a great dumb-at-times adventure serial. When properly watched (pre-DC LD or one of ours) it can be better experienced and this I hope will really take that to the next level.

Finally got my copy in the mail, hope to check out the new transfer in person later tonight. That Italian IB is stunning, and like I thought does not have the heavy oversaturated feel that is supposedly correct on the new transfer. Again, I have never GBU look like this, and not even the 35mm MGM extension which had alternate color from what is on video. IIRC it seemed like a modern lit version of the Mondo-just imagine that transfer with the brighter more washed out look of the old MGM BD. If anyone could find images of the extended MGM 35mm that might help us a bit.

What is supposed to be taken into account is the fact that each lab and each country has its own methodology and thus the prints will always look different from one another. We've gone all through this with Eastman vs. IB, US vs. UK on Star Wars, and if anything when coming from the o-neg, vintage prints are used as a general reference--not an absolute unless the intended look was specified that way by all involved.

Every single restoration of Leone's work has produced a different look, no matter which film it is. Here, it seems the intent was to faithfully represent a 1966 Tech IB print, but then that idea was taken overboard by casting an unnatural saturation over everything.

If anything comes of that print poita, I can be counted in along with others for a fistful.

Good news about your track Hutt, with all the blips between video versions of these films it seems like that would be a big amount of work. BTW, how are you doing the reinserted scenes? I always thought the most appropriate thing to do would have been to use the Italian mono with English subtitles as did the original R1 DVD's supplements.

I really need to be importing some titles...why oh why did they have to go with region locking on BD?

This is what I think the FAFDM R1 DVD was sourced from. It is nearly intact which means it was a different source than the WS LD, and resembled the MGM archive print I saw years ago. However since portions of that were damaged I think what they may have done is combined it with the older transfer, which is what caused the audio track to go off-sync throughout.

Just my two cents.

Can't remember for the life of me if it was the DVD or 1998 LD that was missing something.

I ordered the new set with that deal to examine the new transfer for myself. I had never obtained the old MGM BD because of the DNR, so now need to sell off my AFOD/FAFDM BDs.

I'll post here once I get to examine the new transfer, and that mono track which despite a restoration credit will most likely be another downmix of the 5.1 bastard mix.

Wow, Once Upon a Time...The Revolution never gets a fair deal does it? I wonder if the Spanish is different from the Italian disc (probably not as the specs are the same) because what user reviews describe is NOT like the 35mm restored MGM version, though the clarity in the capsaholic grabs does resemble it. It it is indeed Region A it might be needed for a proper reconstruction once the US disc comes out if ever. And supposedly the audio is correct but poor quality and with some errors.

Thus for audio it could be pretty easy: the bulk could be the MGM restored LD PCM mono, with the end scene dialogue line coming from the Image LD mono PCM and the final flashback mono coming from the lossless BD. (As it is cut everywhere else.)

OUATIA was announced today, in a deluxe set with presumably the old 229 min BD (listed as 1984 theatrical though) but the entire longer restoration will be crammed onto one BD-50. WTF? Can there not be one Leone film that doesn't have problems?

For all films there seems to be a constant divide between the US look and Italian look. Some use the o-neg, some have input from original crew..but who is to say which is correct exactly? Prints varied from country to country, and then you have Tech IB vs. standard Eastman etc. I will say that for all the years I've researched these films here's my overall suggestions:

AFOD: US versions are always brighter due to coming from dupes. The Italian looks different coming from the o-neg. Either is acceptable, though MGM's isn't quite as natural. The best is the restored 35mm print, which is heartstoppingly gorgeous.

FAFDM: There's only the MGM which has inherent boosting and EE which is sad because they used the negative. I actually prefer the look of older versions to be honest, with the best being MGM's sole remaining archive print.

GBU: The film has never looked like the new 4K that I know of. Not even the color fluctuations in the 35mm extended US version are remotely like this. The Mondo was from a restoration approved by the Leone estate and seems to be the most balanced of all, especially compared to all the US versions which seem a bit muted. The original R1 DVD/LD is a perfect example of how the film looked-and so was that ebay print that showed up. The Mondo improves upon this with some of the color that didn't carry over to the States from Italy.

Damn. I really need that Mondo.

Why must we have more copies of Leone films than nearly any other? ;)

The new boxset is up for order on FoxConnect, and with this coupon code on bluray.com it's only around $15.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=242571

Indeed the new 4K would have to be completely re-timed form scratch. However, even though it is less detailed the Mondo was from the Italian Leone family sponsored restoration, and merely making the adjustments for the International/US theatrical version would be possible, and then we could simply add the PCM LD mono track.

Anyone know where to find the Mondo anymore? I need a copy along with ordering the German BDs of the first two. According to bluray.com there is a new Italian BD but I don't know if it's the same master.

As for LD, the audio is the best for all three due to a lack of filtering that is found on all DVD/BD I have yet come across. On LD you have a far greater dynamic range compared to the lossy newer encodes. Especially noticeable in the score, sound effects and gunshots. These same transfers were re-utilized for DVD save for a few minor alterations. Fistful is slightly cleaner on the letterbox DVD but otherwise the same. FAFDM is slightly cut on the LD yet has some of the rare extensions like Indio's laugh. (essentially like MGM's battered 35mm print I saw, few extensions-no mention of Monco's name) The letterbox DVD is unedited but has none of the additional footage. GBU IIRC from one of our threads has a tiny shot missing on the first DVD, but otherwise the print for both letterboxed LDs and the DVD is the same. The original WS LD had Italian captions for the characters which matched that 35mm print recently on ebay. The remastered LD merely substituted the English captions and this carried over to the DVD.

EDIT: I will check my copies. I have the boxset and 1998 LD remaster, and R1 original DVD. IIRC the later LD's audio is a bit cleaner with less noise.

Seriously considering writing MGM/Fox/whoever I have to about their continued issues with the Leone films. Since hitting video they have been full of cuts, framing issues, audio problems, color fluctuations, damage, over-processing, improper "restoration", fake extended versions..does it end? The new DYS blu, if it ever gets released this year will probably look even worse than this, since MGM/Fox is content to mutilate it further with each release.

BTW, if and when that streets I have both WS LDs for correcting audio.

This is really appreciated, especially since I only have one physical JSC to examine. Technidisc aside these are the best video transfers out there for my money, and to have a wonderful version like this for people is wonderful.

My question is, did you really use a usb capture device to transfer? I've always wanted to try my hand at LD transferal but never thought my lowly PC could handle it.

WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING?

Looks like we have our work seriously cut out for us. IIRC the Mondo derived from an Italian restoration sponsored by the Leone family. It always seemed about as close as we had gotten to the original film on video.

The detail is in the new MGM 4K edition but damn, what were they thinking? GBU has never looked like that. I don't even think a IB print would be that oversaturated. And the color cast is just all wrong.

Can't believe Fistful has a new restoration. The Italian BD and 35mm print that has been around in the last few years were from an Italian restoration from the negative, an the new print was beyond gorgeous and completely mindblowing in fine details. (The scene of Ramon's reveal to Joe at the Rojo's table really shows off the white bits that are floating in the air.)

That outtake reel was incredible.

Apparent best source we could have...and then this. WTF were they thinking?? Can GBU ever be done right???

Whoa, there is a color depth there that is unbelievable. Love the darker look inside the DSII.

I can't wait for the revenge...wait no..return of the pug!

The Monuments Men

Forgettable-groan inducing-never ending-Ocean's 11 wannabe in WWII-toneless-undefined-and ultimately unaffecting piece of JUNK. Even the dull Valkyrie was better than this.

1/4 dull balls

The Mark of Zorro-(1920)

Magic. Essentially watching the superhero and swashbuckler film genres being birthed.

Ultimate balls. 4/4 Essential viewing.

Don Q Son of Zorro (1925)

Larger scale but not as effective as the original.

3.5/4

Cruising

A incoherent mess. A waste of so much talent.

2/4 Pacino looking out of place balls.

The Grand Budapest Hotel

Interesting multi-aspect ratio. The film itself...the usual indescribable Anderson farce.

3/4 incomprehensible balls.

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence

Arguably the best film John Ford ever made. Bar none John Wayne's best role, and his byplay with Stewart is worth the price of admission alone. Gorgeously bleak B&W and one of the great American parables.

4/4 Essential.

The Long Good Friday

Even Better the second time. This is a relentless, inventive, groundbreaking little movie that deserves to be better known. A gritty classic with one of the signature British characters. A shame Bob Hoskins is no longer with us. This is one of those performances for the ages.

4/4 Essential.

Just finished perusing both SE and The GOUT cure (which is exactly what this is) and both are nothing short of amazing considering what the sources were.

The SE has never looked better, what you guys have done in cleaning up the broadcast version is nothing short of amazing. The pink cast is no longer heavily prevalent over Tatooine, overall definition seems rounded out, and the motion smearing is no longer as heavy handed (never saw all the different broadcast versions). The addition of the theatrical DTS is astounding, and it completely destroys the ac3 which was no slouch. Extreme thanks for including the 2.0 PCM which was how I had to grow up with the SE and is in itself a great downmix decoded or not.

What this release does is accurately reflect the better clarity of the LD transfer without its DNR and color issues, in fact this recalls the different look of the letterbox VHS and more importantly the theatrical presentation which was beyond compare. Finally we have a SE that resembles the 35mm state of the art exhibition of nearly 20 years ago.

...All this being said, even after originally coming to this site many years ago looking for a definitive SE...the real deal here is the GOUT cure.

Oh my, goodness gracious me...

This absolutely is the utmost one could possibly pull out of this source. I doubt utilizing the D1 video master would even help much. Absolutely amazing results. There is a clarity and depth here that I would not think possible from the GOUT and even its trademark video haziness has been somewhat reduced. Of course there is the frozen grain that cannot be avoided, but once we get past that old friend, this is a stunner. And coupled with the new stab at color timing to better resemble the 1977 intent...someone better tell the folks in the video mastering room at LFL that color timing ain't like dusting crops.

I wholeheartedly would put this alongside the Despecialized 2.5. Yes, I know they are two completely different beasts, but they work along similar lines hand in hand with Team Blu's work excruciatingly working only with this lifeless more machine than man transfer. Well, lifeless no more. Finally the GOUT has the vitality of the JSC and Technidisc as it should have in 1993. This is by all means the ultimate transfer of the original version we know on video, but in a wholly new de-videoized manner.

And all mixes are here lossessly!!! OMG....I have blared the PCM tracks like mad, especially my favorite the mono.

I just wish all that grain wasn't frozen. It's a damn shame that this can never fully reach the heights of the JSC or Technidisc in that regard, but you guys have seriously done a man's job. The V1 and V3s which for years I have shared with friends and family who wanted to see the original films and were my go-tos are officially retired. I simply cannot believe that this is the GOUT. I didn't think an upscale could do this.

Really, really looking forward to seeing what you guys pull out of Empire and Jedi especially which usually get the short end of the coloring stick.

AntcuFaalb said:

You_Too said:

The Laserdisc masters - JSC or 93 or whatever - are out of the question since they're probably on Betacam tapes (DVD resolution) or something.

The JSC master tapes are out of the question because a member of OT.com currently has them.

*spits coffee* WHAT!?! When did this happen!?!

There indeed seemed to be quite a bit of variation in many of the canyon scenes; R2 and the Jawas, Luke and 3P0 finding R2 (which is surprisingly colorful in comparison) and the biggest one for me which is Ben revealing himself to Luke. I felt it stuck out when watching v2.0, later realizing it was indeed more accurate to the original source.

Video can do nutty stuff to our memories.

Sorry to chime in late but I've finally gotten down to enjoying 2.5 after my new HDD came in. This is a fantastic upgrade in numerous ways, with nearly everything upgraded, checked off and tweaked to their finest. Even as someone who is more dedicated to fully original sources, this is probably our landmark in terms of bridging the gap between the modern quality the film should have and the video hell it has always been stuck in.

Thank you Harmy for continuing to better this massive undertaking.

A 35mm GBU print has popped up on ebay, dated 1997 with the Italian captions like the 1993 LD. It would be the international and has proper color intact.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clint-Eastwoods-THE-GOOD-THE-BAD-AND-THE-UGLY-on-35mm-film-/251486242442?pt=US_Film&hash=item3a8dbf868a

I can't wait to dig into these when my new HDD arrives. Again, thanks for all this work recovering these from the mess they were encoded with.

Really excited for the new color timing and the SEs!

Man, that shot looks like it will certainly be the end-all for the SE, and after a very long time since I first stumbled in here years ago looking for a higher quality SE.

And after years of GOUT, I'm really excited to see what you guys have pulled out of that worm ridden filth they called "best available".

Playing the greatest SW game ever released, Yoda Stories for the Game Boy Color!!

Just kidding. For those who don't know, this is a port of an old Windows Desktop adventure game which was somehow made even worse and is easily the worst SW game ever made. At least the unplayable ones aren't this dumb.

I always forget about this supposed "holiday" until it's the day of and just everywhere. So I keep my head down and try not to get into overlong spiels about the desecration of the films etc. (need to make OT.com business cards so I can hand them out.)

But in a little while the Technidisc will be roaring w/popcorn.