I think the GOUT has a really funky AR, and the way it was authored is not indicative of the true 2.35.1 AR. Some side pixels must be removed to achieve a correct AR, and to avoid stretching.
I'm pretty sure DrDre answered a similar question earlier. Check back a few pages.
Just curious, which LaserDisc set? I assume the NTSC 1997 set. Because I am stunned at the clarity of it. The MagicSR really brings out the detail, and the grain field is actually visible!
I will admit, I am guilty of almost completely ignoring the 97 SE, aside from spending a whopping $2 to get the widescreen VHS set. :P
But this thread has really peaked my interest in it. The set is light years ahead of the DVD and Blu ray set in the color, and contrast departments.
Very interested in more!
Ignoring the color differences of course. That's a very close comparison. First impressions is that SR V8 has more of the natural grain field left intact, which is a plus. But has slightly worse aliasing than Team Blu.
A couple more direct comparison screenshots between Team Blu and SR V8 would allow for a better evaluation!
Each upscale method is as unique as the source material it is trying to enhance. Some methods will work better for some material, others will not. I doubt there will ever be a universal upscale method that brings peace to the world.
The challenge is to determine what method works best with the source material. SR has so far, flexed its muscles, and proven it is very much more than capable of producing fantastic results. But, it can, and will always be improved through collaborative efforts, and constructive criticism.
I think the original idea was to merely experiment with Super Resolution and see the results. At no point was the intention of putting down Team Blu's work. I for one, would love to see some comparison screenshots of SR and Team Blu's upscale.
It should not be a competition, but a collaborative effort to fine tune, and perfect the enhancement process! :)
Wow, the amount of details and picture clarity is stunning. That really is from a TV broadcast? :O
Are you going for that retro feel on the color grading? It seems to make everything look washed out, and not very vibrant. It looks cool, but I feel like I am watching an old film reel. :P
Still awesome results! Its also amazing to see how powerful Bicubic is, especially with that GKar capture.
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
I aligned the 97 and 04, and I think that, even if the 97 sources I'm using have not a perfect color grading, this is almost always better than 04 - IMHO!
That convinces me to at least give the 97 set a shot. Thank you!
Very much looking forward to what you have! Your GOUT upscale work is very convincing, and I think you will have terrific results here!
Random question, and I apologize if this has been asked a million times before. But, is the 97 SE considered better than the 2004 SE because the color timing in the 97 SE are way better and more natural? I have never fully watched the 97 SE before, only parts here and there. I do own the widescreen VHS set, so that is my only way of seeing them now.
Thanks
Wow, just the amount of color that is restored is amazing.
Would the LaserDisc sets be of any better quality? Specifically the Japanese set released in 2000?
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
I'm aware that CRT image is clear, but this is due to lower resolution, and the fact CRT has not pixels but dots and scanlines... and, due to the Kell factor, effective resolution is quite low - the smaller the TV, the smaller the resolution!
Yeah, I knew that it would help some, but I was surprised by just how much it did.
Its hard to work with source material so bad. Only so much can be pulled out, but the results so far are still above and beyond what many of us thought was possible. :)
While this probably doesn't help us, I found it to be super interesting.
I played back the GOUT on my CRT television that I use primarily for classic gaming, and the GOUT looked incredible on it. The obtrusive grain/noise is pretty much gone, and all that is left is the natural grain field and it looks incredibly clean. Aliasing is nearly gone as well. Its still there, but it is very very minimal. Color reproduction looks much better than anticipated, but that is less of a concern. And that 6167 frame? Looks very clean, grain is almost non existent.
Since LaserDisc is an analogue format, it needs scan lines to properly display. Its the same reason why LaserDisc and VHS players look so horrible on digital TVs. The analogue to digital conversion sucks. Yes, DVDs are digital, but since the GOUT was authored so terribly, it might as well be analogue.
Just in case you want to know the equipment used, its a Toshiba DVD recorder, played back with S-Video onto a flatscreen 19 inch CRT.
Sorry I cant provide screenshots, unless I point my camera at it and take pictures, but that would not be an accurate representation.
I did not mean it was totally de-grained. Just that your upscale removed much of the noise/grain that the LaserDisc transfer created. The upscale seems to allow the natural grain structure to flourish. Although the resolution of DVD makes it very difficult.
We just want to avoid totally wiping away the grain. But I do believe you have found the sweet spot with picture clarity and grain retention!
DrDre said:
It would be interesting to compare both methods to Team Blu's Star Wars upscale. Since I don't have that one, I wonder if someone could provide some screenshots for comparison?
I think their YouTube video "trailer" has some quick scenes of just the GOUT upscale, not entirely sure.
I would not even know where to get a copy, torrents and all that stuff is completely foreign to me.
@LaserDisc Master
I totally missed that, only saw the screenshots. Sorry about that.
It does look much better in motion. I'm torn now between them. I've never really been bothered by grain in films, but its impossible to ignore the huge increase in picture clarity with it de-grained.
I'm sorry I cant give a definitive answer as to which one I prefer now, they both look so good.
I think we will have to choose the lesser of two evils here. Either we get more detail, but we get more ringing and enhanced aliasing. Or we go for a smoother look, but loose detail.
Personally, I would still go with SR7, just because the de-grained look of MagicUp looks waxy and unnatural to me. The clarity of the picture is amazing, and it still benefits being released, as everyone has different tastes and preferences.
You both have done incredible work nevertheless!
thorr said:
Holy crap, that looks amazing! It's hard to judge for sure because it is so quick. Can you show the close up scene with R2 and 3PO that had lots of interlacing in the 10 minute clip? See R2...
Its a byproduct of the terrible DVD transfer. This cleanup unfortunately, enhances the interlacing.
All I can say is wow!
Extremely impressive results. I think people are going to be floored when they see it.
The only gripe I have is the AA is much more apparent. Its actually a distraction now. But that comes with the cleanup, so nothing can be done about it.
Excellent work! :D
CatBus said:
DrDre said:
I was planning on leaving the audio as it is. So, it will be an exact dublicate of the audio on the DVD. I think it sounds fine as well. :-)
Bah, 1993 audio with 1977 video? Such an anachronism shouldn't be allowed to survive. In my opinion, while I admittedly don't like the 93 audio anyway, it should at least accompany the 81 crawl to maintain some semblance of historical... uh, whatever. 77 video must have one of the 77 audio mixes.
Regarding the AR, did you crop off the left- and rightmost 8 pixels before stretching? Because those 16 pixels of blanking (NTSC only, PAL is a little different) are never intended to make it to the display device, and the actual usable image is 704x480. If you don't do this cropping, all DVDs with analogue blanking will make everyone just a hair too tall and skinny, circles will be ovals, etc...
The only other home audio mixes would be from the 1982 VHS or Betamax releases. Those are closer to the original granted, but they sound terrible. The minor added sound effects in this mix are just fine, and dont detract from the enjoyment.
The 1981 crawl is in every single home video release already. This is the only home video version that has the original crawl. :)
It was filmed in 2.35.1, and even though it was authored in a letterbox format on the GOUT, you would assume the AR would be correct. Thats weird that is was still stretched too much.
Avoiding stretching out the picture is a must. So if 1280x544 offers the correct AR that keeps everyone from having stretchy faces, then I would go with that.
Damn non-anamorphic DVDs, makes everything more difficult :P
Random question. Are you doing anything with the audio? Or are you just going to leave it? I know many people voiced complaints about the audio, but I think it sounds fine. I think the original theatrical audio on the 70mm print was 6 track stereo audio, which the GOUT is more faithful too I believe.
I'd say, the more picture, the better. Even if those weird anomalies exist on the sides. Granted, all DVDs are authored with about 8 pixels cut off the left and right sides. It was filmed with the foreknowledge that many theaters would playback the film with slight over scan to essentially crop out anything at the very edge of the film strip. Such as dirt, hair, or physically broken pieces of the film strip.
DVDs adhere to a standard that honors that slight over scan. But in the HD age, a 1 to 1 pixel ratio is more sought after. Totally up to you. Cropping out that small amount is actually what the cameraman/ director intended, but it is more picture that people may want to see. So the 1280x554 is a better choice, since I think even the Blu Rays and DVDs show less picture than the GOUT.
I am not sure if it is just my eyes, but it seems that from the start of the opening scroll, till the Star Destroyer passes, that one continuous shot seems much cleaner than the rest of the GOUT. Because that original scroll is not from the Laserdisc master.
So whoever put the original scroll in, obviously had access to a clean print, because the altered scroll was implemented in 1981, and was never on any home video release.
I might just be going crazy, ignore me if you wish. :P
That latest video sample sealed the deal for me, that's incredible. The detail level is incredible, and the natural grain structure looks very good. Colors appear to be slightly better than the standard GOUT, and contrast appears to be the same.
I think you nailed it on the head DrDre, excellent work!
DrDre said:
It's interesting to see that the detail enhancement and noise reduction also restores the color to a certain extend.
It appears that the sheer amount of noise and grain actually diluted the color. That is fascinating, I have never seen that before.
It seems it would be tough to remove only the noise, yet leave the natural grain structure. Scrubbing away every single bit would leave a very smooth, and waxy image. No good.
So far, the increase in detail is staggering, even if some of the natural grain is being removed.
@ Laserdisc Master
Wow, those original ones from 1989 are the best ones, even though they have that ridiculous shrinking aspect ratio? Never would have guessed....
Definitely going to stay far away from those 95 and 93 Laserdisc sets then.
Thanks for the information!