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Williarob

User Group
Trusted Members
Join date
9-Apr-2007
Last activity
21-Jun-2018
Posts
985
Web Site
http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com

Post History

Post
#1206574
Topic
Movie Preservation and Home Media: An Opinion
Time

theMaestro said:

The Star Wars Blu-rays are a different case though, aren’t they? Because they seem to be the same version that the 2004 DVDs were based on (but with some further modifications). And so, if deadlines were what contributed to their botched colors, then it would be the deadline for getting the 2004 DVDs out in time for the holidays and to promote the last prequel movie. But what’s baffling is that the Blu-rays came out 7 years later…and still had the same color issues! You would think that they’d at least try to make some kind of effort to improve the colors. But nope, perhaps they were okay with all the characters looking magenta.

That’s true, it is odd that they didn’t fix it in 2011.

Post
#1206558
Topic
Movie Preservation and Home Media: An Opinion
Time

As far as modern films go I really don’t see any reason why the Bluray should look any different to the DCP sent to theaters, though if I had to guess, I would say that it is because the studios are probably handling the bluray releases entirely unsupervised by the directors. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the studios just take the DCP, apply a blanket yellow, teal, or teal and orange LUT to it, then apply some standard Edge enhancement and DNR and call it done. That way it looks like all the other modern blurays. The director probably hates it as much as we do when and if (s)he gets a look at it, but by then it’s too late, and they are busy with their next project anyway.

For older films I think it is a little more complicated. In the 1980s they would often just transfer an IP print to tape, with the levels and colors adjusted to work within the limitations of PAL/NTSC/SECAM/etc tube TVs. In the late 90’s and early '00s DVDs suddenly started selling like hot cakes and it was worth the investment by the studios to remaster as many of the old films as they could. Sometimes this involved A GOUT style rush job, where they just took the digital laserdisc master and slapped it on a DVD, while others took more care.

With the advent of HD video and bluray, digital scans from the negatives became much more common as a way to achieve the best possible picture quality - upscaling the DVDs just wasn’t good enough. However, by going back to the negatives the original color timing is lost completely and has to be recreated. Color timing digitally, rather than chemically, makes it much cheaper and easier to experiment with new “looks”. I like to imagine that the colorist for the new bluray is sat in a hi tech room with his digital workstation and a projector, screening a theatrical print of the film on a huge screen, allowing the colorist to try to match each scene as closely as possible… But I don’t think that happened very often. Perhaps they were handed the old DVD, or nothing at all. Perhaps sometimes the film’s director would supervise - but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean that the colors wouldn’t be “improved” in the remaster, made perhaps many years after the original film was released.

There is also probably some concern that the grainy, film like image will look out of place among all of the modern, blurays, shot and processed digitally from start to finish. Hence the need to scrub them clean, and sharpen them to hell.

Finally, as somebody who has tried grading scans of film prints, and encoding them, it is very easy for me to see how the addition of a fixed budget and a fixed deadline can lead to less than optimal results. Sometimes the encoder changes the colors, or the levels from your carefully created master, or you forget to change one of the settings, and a re-encode is necessary. But if the adverts have already been broadcast that this film will be available to buy on Bluray on this date - Best Buy already has the cardboard stands to display them, and the master tapes need to be sent to the factory for authoring, then your time is up… Now of course with professionals this isn’t supposed to happen, but I’m sure it does. How else do you explain the Star Wars Blurays? When the final encode was done, somebody must have piped up and said, “oh shit, these are as magenta as fuck!”, but they had to be in stores by October, so that’s what we have… Since then they have been repackaged a number of times, ample opportunities to fix the colors, but that would cut into the profits - and we bought them anyway, right?

Post
#1184084
Topic
team negative1 - star wars 1977 - 35mm theatrical version (release details and updates)
Time

I’m pretty sure the LPP used for the SSE is a duplicate, so it’s 4(?) generations away from the negative.

Even if it isn’t a dupe, it’s still 3 generations away so it really shouldn’t come as a surprise that Bluray based sources have more detail and less grain than a scan of a release print. But like santakrooz says, release prints are what people saw in the cinema and Cinema prints were not struck from the original negative - contact printing was a destructive process, and if they created hundreds of prints from the negative it would have been destroyed. So they would create an interpositive, and use that to create a throw away negative to use for striking prints. When it wears out, they would simply create another. This allowed them to create hundreds of prints without damaging the negative. Sometimes a few prints would be struck directly from the negative for critics screenings, and special events, but these did not end up at your local cinema.

SSE = Original negative -> Interpositive -> internegative -> Positive print -> duplicate -> HD print scanner.
4K77 = Original negative -> color separation matrices -> Positive print -> 4K print scanner
Bluray = Original negative -> 4K print scanner.

It would be really nice if Disney/Lucasfilm could dig up one of those original IPs and create a new 4K scan - it would be head and shoulders above anything else we have access to.

Post
#1181026
Topic
The Original Trilogy restored from 35mm prints
Time

RU.08 said:

RUN_LUKE_RUN said:

I honestly didn’t want to sound rude. If i did I’m sorry. I had a honest question and thank you for taking the time to post your comments to clarify. You have sacrificed so much so people can enjoy your work and i thank you. if i ever save up enough money for my home server i would be happy to lend my processing power to your projects. But for now cryptocurrency miners will continue to jack-up the prices.

I don’t think anyone was accusing you of that. To me it just sounded a little uninformed, not rude. I think the thing is there is a disparity of information between people who are involved (like poita), people who follow closely, and people who are new or don’t follow these projects so closely. In any case posting your enquiry in the forum rather than by private topic I think is helpful as it provides an opportunity for others who are thinking the same thing to get an answer. 😃

Exactly. Though typically, any post that begins with a phrase like “I don’t mean to sound rude but…” is usually followed by something that could be interpreted as rude - even the person writing the post can see that, hence the preface. In this case, I think you asked a perfectly legitimate question that I’m sure others were wondering about also, and I don’t think it was rude to ask. Those of us who have been on this board for more than a decade often forget that not everybody is as informed as we are, and lesser beings than Poita have been know to pounce on posts like this one with venomous wrath - which is totally unfair, but also human nature. If you had spent years of your life and thousands of dollars working on these projects, and then somebody new comes along and asks “why aren’t you doing this or that?”, it’s very easy to take offense and overreact when posting a response. I know I’ve been guilty of that myself.

So my response was really just to express my admiration for how Poita handled your question, in the hopes that others (myself included) might learn from it. If we want the next generation of fans to continue to care for and about the original trilogy, we need to continue to politely answer their questions, even if the answers seem obvious to us or have already been posted many times before.

Post
#1179889
Topic
The Original Trilogy restored from 35mm prints
Time

Poita I’d like to take a moment to thank you, not only for all you do for the community but also for continuing to take the high road in situations like this - it’s unfortunate that a lot of forum threads ultimately flame out because somebody says something rude, and others respond in kind. It’s all too easy to write a biting retort. Your thoughtful and reasoned reply is the kind of response that stops that nonsense in its tracks, restores perspective and allows discussions to continue. This is not the first time, I’ve seen you bite your tongue, and refrain from cutting somebody down to size, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. I applaud your patience, and wish the internet was filled with more people like you.

Post
#1172170
Topic
Dealing with People Selling Fan Projects
Time

J0E said:

dylanv1025 said:

LordZerome1080 said:

Found another one. https://m.ebay.com/itm/Star-Wars-Original-Trilogy-Despecialized-Edition-3-Blu-Ray-Set-SEALED-BRAND-NEW/162905430089?hash=item25edeb9849:g:FvoAAOSwIFtZ~TN1

Wtf, how did he get it “sealed”?

I work at a Party City and we sell giant rolls of cello wrap. It isn’t hard to wrap things in it, you just have to be good at wrapping and gluing. What would be REALLY impressive is if they were shrink wrapped.

Not really, I used to work at a place that sold software and we had a cheap, off the shelf, shrink wrap machine. It was basically just a bunch of cellophane bags, open at one end that we’d put the boxes in, and then use the attached “hair dryer” like device to shrink it and seal it. Took just a few seconds. I’m sure anyone can buy these replacement bags and use a household hairdryer to do the same thing.

Post
#1170291
Topic
Color matching and prediction: color correction tool v1.3 released!
Time

DrDre said:

lansing said:

DrDre said:

lansing said:

DrDre said:

lansing said:

Hi I ran into problem on color matching 2 color palettes, every color matched except that one on row 3 column 2, it always turn to pink on the result.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/0E1NNN8U

This is a discrete color matching problem. The color matching algorithm assumes images with a continuous color distributions with smooth color gradients, so it’s not perfectly suited for this sort of problem.

However, the explanation is in row 5 column 1, which in the source image has almost the same color as row 3 column 2. That color has to become a bright pink, and so row 3 column 2 also becomes pink.

So does that mean the problem can be resolved if I can sort the order of the color in the source image into one long smooth gradient before passing to the program?

It might be…

I isolated that two color and do the testing on the order, but the program didn’t run.

source:
https://i.imgur.com/58gYXRb.png

ref:
https://i.imgur.com/KmO21IJ.png

The algo matches color distributions. With two colors there is not much of a distribution, so I don’t think that will work.

Perhaps this explains why the program wouldn’t run for me when I tried to match the end credits of Star Wars.

Post
#1158313
Topic
DESPECIALIZED EDITION <em>QUALITY CONTROL</em> THREAD - REPORT ISSUES HERE
Time

oojason said:

a request for some assistance with Despecialized from Harmy…

 

Harmy said:

Guys - I could use some help - I remember some time ago, someone was working on a shotlist for the SW movies and I can’t find it. But what I’d really need is someone helping me catalogue all the shots that need despecializing and making a system that will make it easier for me to keep track of the shots and what they need done.
My idea is this table, where I could keep track of the progress on all the shots:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NwFnvrRp3CnyDOdr9W1__8PLBGwH8WOKkl8mjke8LQs/edit?usp=sharing

So, would I find volunteers, who would help me by going through Doubleofive’s galleries and putting all the shots down in this table and looking them up in GOUT and BD and putting in the timecodes?

When this is done and I start working on v3.0, the plan is to keep the table public, so you guys can check on my progress and every once in a while, when all shots in a sequence have status Pending Final, I want to post the sequence as a work-print and only after I get positive feedback on it, I will mark the shots as final.

This will make you guys more involved again, like in the old times, and it should help keep me more motivated. 😃

 

Please send him a PM if you can help…

This might help:

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Shot-List-Spreadsheet-v0505-6-films-publicly-editable/id/13403

I used it to generate a shot list based on frame numbers, which allowed me to write scripts to sort each reel into shots, and generate EDL files that could be used instead of automatic scene detection in programs like Resolve…

Post
#1157260
Topic
James Bond The Living Daylights 35mm (Help Needed)
Time

Looking at the print, the SE DVD and the Bluray, I find myself humming that “One of these things is not like the others” song from Sesame Street…

Imgur

What you are looking at here is a frame from the Living Daylights, Reel 1 - part of the Exercise on Gibraltar. I find it interesting for two reasons:

  1. It shows the relative resolution of each medium (SE DVD in the center @ 100%, then the BD @ 100%, then the print scan).
  2. For the most part, the DVD and the Print agree on the colors, while the Blu-ray is often quite different.