Warbler

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

The concept of being privileged but still having a crappy life was explained in that post.

I love how we throw away the real definition of words so they can mean whatever we want them to.

What the heck are you even talking about?

Color Blind now means you ignore all the history of racism.

Racism now requires power instead of just being a bigot

homeless men are now privileged.

mfm is right, its a semantics game.

Only if you ignore what we’ve been saying.

whatever.

TV’s Frink said:

I don’t even understand what there is to be offended about.

I’m not offended. I’m frustrated and pissed off.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

The concept of being privileged but still having a crappy life was explained in that post.

I love how we throw away the real definition of words so they can mean whatever we want them to.

What the heck are you even talking about?

Color Blind now means you ignore all the history of racism.

Racism now requires power instead of just being a bigot

homeless men are now privileged.

mfm is right, its a semantics game.

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

No individual person is a part of the problem.

Yeah, that’s not true.

I’m not him and you know I can’t stand him or his boss.

I don’t think that post was about you.

It wasn’t. Warb seems to believe every post here is about him, though.

nope. But I did think that one included me. Sorry.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

“you’re white”

“you’re male”

“you’re privileged”

“you’re part of the problem”

“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”

just who has been making “many accusations”?

Aren’t you white?

Aren’t you male?

Yes, but you guys meant them as insults.

Source?

read your own posts.

I don’t think I have ever insulted anybody in this conversation.

not directly, but you sure talked as though being a male and white was something negative.

If so, please point me to the post where I did, and I will heartily apologize.

If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged.

These guys are privileged:

TV’s Frink said:

Just because you’re privileged doesn’t mean you’ve got a good life. It simply means that you have certain advantages by being a white straight male etc whatever.

A black man and a white man can both have AIDS but the black man is more likely to get attention from police for doing nothing. There’s the privilege. The white man can still die in the gutter the next day. Hell, the white man can still be hassled by the police for doing nothing. But it’s more likely to happen to the black man because he’s not white.

So yeah, when I think of “privilege” I’m just thinking of someone getting benefits because of how they were born. You guys shouldn’t take it so personally, because most of us are privileged in some way.

Those two homeless people are not privileged.

The concept of being privileged but still having a crappy life was explained in that post.

I love how we throw away the real definition of words so they can mean whatever we want them to.

TV’s Frink said:

I guess Warbler hasn’t understood a single thing I’ve said today.

not true.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Handman said:

provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.

I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.

Stats are examples.

Stats can be easily manipulated to say whatever you want them to say. Stats are not specific examples.

See my post to Handman (ignored twice now) where I gave you a boatload of Google links to examples.

I missed that post. I will be looking at the links you posted.

Jeebus said:

Chris Crispy gets called a fatass

and he deserves its. Because him and the state legislature could not come to an agreement on the budget, Christie shut the state down. This included state parks that contained beaches. It closed down right at the 4th of July holiday. He was seen relaxing at a beach that was closed to the general public. Fuck him.

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

“you’re white”

“you’re male”

“you’re privileged”

“you’re part of the problem”

“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”

just who has been making “many accusations”?

Aren’t you white?

Aren’t you male?

Yes, but you guys meant them as insults.

Source?

read your own posts.

If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged.

These guys are privileged:

TV’s Frink said:

Just because you’re privileged doesn’t mean you’ve got a good life. It simply means that you have certain advantages by being a white straight male etc whatever.

A black man and a white man can both have AIDS but the black man is more likely to get attention from police for doing nothing. There’s the privilege. The white man can still die in the gutter the next day. Hell, the white man can still be hassled by the police for doing nothing. But it’s more likely to happen to the black man because he’s not white.

So yeah, when I think of “privilege” I’m just thinking of someone getting benefits because of how they were born. You guys shouldn’t take it so personally, because most of us are privileged in some way.

Those two homeless people are not privileged.

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)

The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.

If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.

Do you always have to be so self-righteous? Condemning a group for being awful and that they have no problems won’t win any of their suppport, this is partly why the Clinton campaign did not do as well as it should have. Instead of saying “You’re evil” or whatever, provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.

DominicCobb said:

This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.

I asked for examples. Fuck off.

DominicCobb said:

This is the kind of shit that makes it impossible to reach a point of understanding.

Being belligerent isn’t exactly the most inviting behavior for a reasoned discussion.

You’re only serving to prove my thesis that white dudes retreat back to their bubbles and overreact when their views are challenged.

But you haven’t challenged anything. I asked for more and you retreated. You did nothing but show condescending behavior, which rightly pissed me off. Nothing you have said is substantial in any way other than to put yourself on a pedestal.

I have not called you out. I was not talking about you specifically or really about anyone specifically here. I was speaking generally, though this tends to be the issue. It is not hard to parse generalized statements. That’s why the phrase “not all men” is such an eye roller. Though the fact that you responded in the way you did does tell me I hit a nerve.

I have not used any of the words you claim I did. Nowhere did I call anyone “evil,” despite what your quotation marks would suggest. Nowhere did I “condemn a group for being awful.” Nowhere did I call anyone an asshole (though your behavior is testing my patience in that regard). Nowhere did I say people like you are the problem (just that you can be a part of it to an extent if you aren’t willing to listen).

This goes back to why I shut down before with Warbler and mfm. If you guys are going to twist my words and make me into some sort of self righteous justice warrior condemning all the white men in the thread for being evil, I don’t know how I can reason with you. I don’t try to be condescending but it’s hard not to when you’re acting like children. If you can’t actually interact with the actual words I’m using, then I don’t entirely believe we’re on the same level to have an intelligent discussion.

Again, I don’t want to be condescending, but please read the post I made that set you off again:

DominicCobb said:

The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)

The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.

If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.

If this posts sounds patronizing then I apologize, my aim was more to be clinical. I’m not attacking you or anyone else personally, in fact right off the bat I put the blame on culture and/or human nature. People don’t like being wrong. I’m the same way. When people have their worldview challenged, they bristle and retreat. I was the same way at first. All my point ever was in that post was to say the next step is as simple as being able to listen to views that challenge your own, and investigate experiences that differ from your own. It’s so easy to find examples online. So easy. I can sit here and google and show you all of them. But that’s not going to make a difference if you’re not willing to listen (and let me be clear, your attitude thus far tells me you clearly are not). If you’re actually interested in finding examples, you can seek them out yourself. If not, feel free to go about your business, as I said.

This is what I was asking for in my initial post, further explanation, and I’m glad you took the time to do so. I didn’t mean to be so abrasive but when I was given a requote it just set me off. So, sorry about that. I don’t wish to continue to fight about it and hope we can find some common ground in the future.

I appreciate the change of tone, I really do. I wasn’t trying to be dicky with the requote but it just frustrates me when others read into things that aren’t there, makes it hard to properly engage (and I should say I’m as guilty of it as anyone).

You mean like when people read “I deny all history of slavery, jim crow, discrimination and racism”, into the words “color blind”?

TV’s Frink said:

yhwx said:

No individual person is a part of the problem.

Yeah, that’s not true.

I’m not him and you know I can’t stand him or his boss.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

“you’re white”

“you’re male”

“you’re privileged”

“you’re part of the problem”

“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”

just who has been making “many accusations”?

Aren’t you white?

Aren’t you male?

Yes, but you guys meant them as insults.

If yes to either (or both!) then yes you’re privileged.

These guys are privileged:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Handman said:

provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.

I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.

Stats are examples.

Stats can be easily manipulated to say whatever you want them to say. Stats are not specific examples.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)

The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.

If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.

Do you always have to be so right?

What I read.

This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write.

I didn’t incorrectly read anything, I just was agreeing with Dom in my own unique way.

You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”

Yes.

If you looked at Handman’s post and read “Do you always have to be so right?” You misread it.

“you’re white”

“you’re male”

“you’re privileged”

“you’re part of the problem”

“you won’t admit to being part of the problem”

just who has been making “many accusations”?

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)

The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.

If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.

Do you always have to be so right?

What I read.

This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write. You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”

So many accusations.

whatever.

Handman said:

provide examples of what is wrong, like Catbus did, and what we can do to solve it. It would be a lot less frustrating and a lot more productive.

I agree with this, provide examples. People want to say that I’m clueless about this because I am white. So provide examples to this clueless white guy and then maybe I won’t be so clueless anymore. Show more than just some stats.

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

DominicCobb said:

The sooner people in general can accept that they may have blindspots the better. I don’t know if it’s culture or human nature or a combination of both but people (in particular white men) don’t seem to either want to admit to being part of a problem or acknowledging a problem that doesn’t affect them and that they can’t see in their daily life. Basically, people don’t like being wrong. (I can sympathize.)

The truth is, if you’re a white man (as I am), you don’t experience institutional racism/sexism. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can either accept this fact and look outside of your own bubble for evidence as to where and how and why and to what extent, or you can retreat back and proclaim that white privilege can’t possibly exist and that anyone complaining about problems that you don’t personally experience are just making things up.

If you want to be more understanding of the world around you and more empathetic towards your fellow humans, you can seek out the information. Otherwise, you can continue about your business - it won’t affect you any, obviously, but just know that to some extent you will be part of the problem.

Do you always have to be so right?

What I read.

This is part of the problem, incorrectly reading what people say/write. You know what he wrote and it wasn’t “Do you always have to be so right?”

CatBus said:

I think maybe he was fishing for more of a nuanced “how prevalent is it?/how overt is it?” sort of discussion, rather than a “it’s bad/it’s a myth” stupid discussion.

exactly.

TV’s Frink said:

So…do you think it’s a myth?

no.

*shrugs shoulders* Ok, I tried.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Which is as much of an answer as “ask Google.”

Which to be fair, is a perfectly reasonable answer.

I was just trying to get the opinions of those here about institutional/systemic racism/sexism is. I was just wondering if I misunderstood what is meant when people on here and others refer to institutional/systemic racism/sexism.

Sorry, you asked what it was, not how people feel about it.

Ok, how do people feel about it?

TV’s Frink said:

Which is as much of an answer as “ask Google.”

Which to be fair, is a perfectly reasonable answer.

I was just trying to get the opinions of those here about institutional/systemic racism/sexism is. I was just wondering if I misunderstood what is meant when people on here and others refer to institutional/systemic racism/sexism.

nevermind.

I don’t mean to come off as a jerk. I am not trying to score any points. I don’t ask this to annoy anyone or to prove any points. I ask this because I want to learn.

What is institutional racism/sexism?