What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.
That is true now for blockbusters where coherent writing and world building isn’t a thing, it wasn’t true before. Nor should it be true.
Yeah. I nearly had the opposite thought. It felt like “wow why is the scene treating Luke like he’s this angelic figure?”
But then it all made sense when I remembered… “hypocrisy, hubris.” This is the Luke that island Luke looked back on and felt embarrassed by. Not because he was altogether wrong, but because of his pride.Agreed absolutely. Why would Luke bother to force crush a dark trooper instead of easily cutting it up, if not to demonstrate his own power? (And yes, I know the actual explanation for that is ‘It looks cool’) The Mandalorian’s Luke also compliments TLJ Luke by showing Luke’s effort to find students, and his saying “I will give my life to protect the child” - when he ultimately, indirectly, caused the deaths of his own students by mishandling Ben’s training - makes his self-hatred over that more powerful. I only wish Dave Filoni would talk about TLJ Luke in relation to his appearance in The Mandalorian, that might shut up a lot of people.
I think this analysis is Ironic, because people only bring up this narrative when discussing Luke, no one else in the force. Luke is the only one that is not allowed to show power, Anakin should, Obi wan, Yoda, and even the newbies - Rey and Kylo, showcasing immense abilities despite their lack of training. Everyone enjoys those, but when its Luke - ‘Hold on!’
The hubris Luke talked about was not the abilities that Jedi showcased in combat, it was very clear in the movie his critique was the fact that the Jedi held on to their influence and got too involved with politics allowing themselves to be puppets to a sith emperor. At the end of the day the Jedi were no different than the Sith. Its the fact that the Jedi held on to the code, which is flawed, and that prompted him to want to burn down the jedi books to stop that legacy from being passed on. its more of a shame that Rian didnt commit to that idea, and thew it out of the window before the end of the movie.
In a delete scene in Ach-to Luke mentions to Rey that the rebellion still needs someone strong like her to fight alongside them. He just cant be the one to do it.
So uh, I disagree completely, but one of the things I feel I should mention, Poe was absolutely not second in command. D’Acy certainly outranked him, and she seemed informed of the plan. And Holdo ‘engaged hostilities’ with Poe because Poe killed their entire bomber squad by disobeying orders. This ain’t too complicated. I don’t think we’re meant to infer that Holdo’s leadership was excellent, but ‘a fascist and draconian head of state’? What?
Poe was the commander of the rebellion fleet, the only people above him were Akbar and Holdo (considering General Leia was out). When Holdo died he was the one that replaced her, hence the second in command. Poe became general of the Rebellion, not Akbar.
I agree that Poe was shown to be irresponsible at the start of the movie (which is another thing i dont appreciate in TLJ), but in reality he saved the rebellion with his choices, Holdo only had to convey the plan to him. Leadership is not about omitting, it’s about communication and how you handle difficult people.
I have leadership meetings every day, development meetings. And dealing with all kinds of characters is the center focus. Holdo failed miserably at that. A mutiny is a sign of that too.
NFB is right in everything he says so this is completely unnecessary, but I thought I’d nitpick some of your points, Wanderer.
You have your relationship between the Emperor/Snoke and their puppet Kylo/Vader… except Kylo rebels against his master (subverted expectations)
Vader also does this. I think it would’ve subverted my expectations more if Kylo had actually beheaded Rey.
You have Luke skywalker, a proven hero from the OT, passed around like this fake Legend whose heroic acts never happened. This point comes across in that line where he says “do you expect me to face the entire First Order feel with a laser sword?” … yes dude, we do. Because thats what you did before! (subverted expectations)
Where’s the suggestions Luke’s heroic acts never happened? The point is he is that legend - and the movie ends with him renewing it - but more than that he’s fundamentally a human being. Rey wants just Luke the legend, but she gets Luke the human. That’s because it’s Luke the human who creates Luke the legend; the two can’t be separated.
I just pointed out a key line from the movie. That line was very jarring and this theme is subtle but carried across the movie. Luke isnt who Rey thinks he is, Luke isnt the person to help her in this quest. Luke isnt the one who can help her defeat the New Order… while us as viewers are thinking to ourselves ‘Why not? thats what he did before!’ Luke in that island almost felt that he had amnesia. Does he not remember what rebels do? does he not remember he went up against a fleet of ATAT’s himself? with a ‘laser sword’ no less? Does he not remember his friends are in need?
Again, Luke, probably the most generous and kind hearted character in the OT. Becomes this bitter old man who left his friends to die after considering to murder his nephew in his sleep. (subverted expectations)
If, after Han told the audience in TFA that “Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.”, you were still expecting Luke to be a cheerful chap who had just isolated himself on an island for a quick vacation, then I don’t know what to tell you. It’s certainly tough to see Luke struggling mentally like that, but it’s extremely human, and I think it’s very inspiring how he overcomes it by the end of the movie.
I dont know where you got that from my writing. Luke is kind hearted and generous, i said nothing about being cheerful after someone’s death.
Luke’s character would not let his friends to die, everyone fails and Luke himself has failed before in TESB. He is not attached to the Jedi code as demonstrated in the OT. He isnt Yoda or Obi Wan. He is a rebel that has the force, and he did what he needed even if that mean going against the Jedi way. Thats what made him special.
I dont mind Luke’s struggle in the movie, i can understand its hard to feel responsible for the loss of your legacy. But he isnt stranger to loss, and i felt it was weird to see TLJ focus so much on his losses and victories instead of the lead character -Rey.
TFA plays with the idea Luke went away to get away from it all, but it also suggests he went after ancient Jedi knowledge…for a reason. At the very least TLJ owed Ray the proper development she needed, and Luke should have been the role for that. Guidance, inspiration, not to leave her still in search of a father figure at the end of TLJ.
Lukes over the shoulders saber throw like a cheap comedy movie, instead of realizing how important the passage of that Saber is (subverted expectations)
I’ll concede that TLJ plays a lot of things for comedy at odd times (see also: Rose kisses Finn; base immediately gets shot) but the idea that that saber is important was one that was only really created by TFA in the first place. No one cared much about it when it’d just fallen into Bespin, never to be seen again, right? Luke just made his own new saber and carried on with his life.
I dont care about the Sabre, its the way that its done that represents the tone of TLJ. Its a parody. TLJ is Spaceballs II. From ‘yo momma’ jokes, every major character being comedic relief.
Rey, whose past is unknown but she clearly has had training in the force before since she can do everything. No, she’s a nobody and her powers and skill are of unknown origin (Potential in the force without training is a blunt knife) (subverted expectations)
Yes, potential in the force without training is imprecise - a blunt instrument. Luke makes this exact point about how dangerous her raw strength is, and the movie demonstrates it visually when Rey accidentally chops the rock in half because she’s not controlled or disciplined in her usage of a lightsaber. Star Wars has, for better or worse, pretty solidly established at this point that some people are just randomly born with a whole load of midichlorians. The origin of her powers is that she’s very force sensitive.
Its not the force amount that telegraphs her past training, its her abilities in everything. Padawans dont start off great at everything, whether you’re Luke, anakin, or some random dude with a broom. This was even made worse in ROTS.
Rey, this beacon of light. Unwavering and pure hearted starts falling in love with a man who murdered the closest thing to a father figure she ever had in front of her own eyes (subverted expectations)
Yes, she finds a connection with Ben. That’s the plot of the movie. Rey isn’t ‘unwavering and pure hearted’ - she’s a good person, but like all of us she craves human connection, a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose. Ben gives her that when Luke doesn’t.
First of all, this goes to show my point above, the movie failed Rey by going on a quest to yet again only develop Luke as a character. Second of all this is still not an excuse for her to latch on to Ben (and dont even get me started on that juvenile scene where gets the hots from looking at him without the shirt on…)
Kylo is a manchild, who has no real motifs to turn to the dark side and he is clearly a murderer. She craves human connection? she has Finn, Poe, Leia, an entire rebellion legion trying to survive and escape from his murderous bastard. Yet she acts like he is the only dude in the movie.
Calling this one “subverted expectations” is a bit of a stretch; because you’d need to have extremely rigid and cliched expectations to begin with - did you think she’d just kill him, because she’s a goodie and he’s a baddie? That’s not even what happens between Luke and Vader in the OT!
I dont think its rigid to not expect stockholms syndrome from a main character that just a few days before TLJ saw this guy Murder hands and slash Finn in front of her. This is absolute mental. She didnt have to kill him because she is good, she would want to kill him for revenge, ethics, loyalty to the cause. You name it, she had plenty of reasons to be against Kylo, and none to fall for him. Other of his muscular torso. Great writing! It’s like we are Twilight now.
Additionally, Vader and Kylo are very different. Vader turned to the dark side for love, it was a tragic tale of someone who went too far for love. And that love was the catalyst for anger, hatred and suffering. He became a puppet, he was in many ways a kind person than many of the sterile force users in that order. He became a monster, but its easy to see the human element in him thanks to Luke. People dont feel sorry for Vader at the end of ROTJ, they feel sorry for Luke.
Kylo was turning evil even before the scene with Luke in his hut. Till this day, even with comics, its not clearly explained why Ben turned to the dark side. Only that is a mentally ill punk.
Continuity from The Force Awakens. No continuity, entire potential plot threads thrown out of the window. (subverted expectations)
There’s something of a thematic/tonal discontinuity, sure. You can tell they’re movies by different directors and writers. But the only ‘plot thread’ that’s explicitly thrown away is the Knights of Ren, and RJ confessed he just couldn’t work out what to do with them - TROS demonstrates that, actually, neither could JJ; they were just there to look cool. Kylo Ren ‘completing his training’ is not really explicitly followed up on, only sort-of alluded to, but again, like the KoR, there was no substance to that to really build upon to begin with.
RJ could continue them, he just didnt want it. Its very clear from the comedic tones in the movie, and how detached it is in tone that RJ wanted to do something of his own. TFA plot threads were incredibly easy to follow. Luke went away in search of the first jedi temple, for guidance, for knowledge. Rey needs training as the main character of the trilogy, she needs to become someone of her own but she cant do that without a foundation. Kylo ren needed to finish his training, as he is unhinged and clearly unprepared mentally or physically (his duelist skills are trash) Finn needed to play a bigger role to give some deeper meaning to his insurgency to the Rebellion not to be sent on a meaningless sidequest. And so on.
Above all, the movie shouldn’t be a comedy where it undermines its darker moments with cheap laughs in every single sequence.
Theres a lot more, but yeah, TLJ definitely does try too hard to subvert everyone’s expectations. In fact it sacrifices narrative and character development in order to do so.
I think most of your points are pretty questionable, and just writing “(subverted expectations)” after them doesn’t really explain what expectations you had or how they were subverted.
I don’t think they are. I just don’t think you are looking at TLJ objectively. You need to really want to like it to overlook its many narrative dissonance moments. Ive seen TLJ 4 times in the theaters, the more i watched the more confused i became with some decisions.
TLJ is above all a star wars parody, its about flipping things inside out, every dark moment is followed with a cheap comedic one, this in of itself is subverting expectations too. Nobody expects this kind of silliness and goofiness in Star wars. The OT movies had fun in there, but they were mostly heartfelt movies that took each revelation seriously. I dont remember laughing to any particular scene of the OT, just some grins here and there. TFA was spot on with its humour, as it never undermines itself. TLJ does. Nobody needs to see BB8 shooting slots like a machine gun, or driving an ATAT (!)
Finally, another expectation subverted was the whole ‘Jedi must end’ theme of the movie. Its in the marketing, its in the trailer, and the movie starts off that way. Only to flip 180 degrees at the final moment. I do believe Luke was right, and i was genuinely excited to see what would come of it. Luke was never a real Jedi, he was more of a Grey Jedi that uses both dark and light. Luke was never afraid of dabbling into dark powers. In the ROTJ he uses force choke, a skill reserved to dark side users for example. The Jedi failed, they held on to power and they allowed themselves to fail. I was excited to see Luke show us a new order in things, to show us how different force users can be. Rian had the chance to kick the door wide open for all kinds of branching paths… yet he didn’t. Yoda showed up to tell Luke he is wrong once more, and that the JEdi must carry on through Rey. And in his last scene Luke conforms to the fact the Jedi will continue… unfortunately i guess.
That was the movie biggest failure. Not to Luke, but to the mythology. Rian had a prime chance to use Luke and Rey as a catalyst for a new way of looking at he force. But he chickens out and turns back to the same old Jedi vs Sith/dark.
Poes reaction in TLJ was completely justified, and a result of poor leadership.
You think someone in the military can just refuse to obey orders unless someone walks them through the plan and gets their approval? How would Patton have reacted to Poe?
Holdo was justified in keeping the plan to her immediate staff. As soon as Poe heard it and blabbed it over the radio, DJ used the information to cut a deal with the First Order that resulted in many deaths.
Poe didn’t respect authority and a leader needs to learn this before they are ready to command.
Thats not how official hierarchy works at all, not in companies, not in the military. Poe was the second in command, Holdo came from nowhere and immediately engaged in hostilities with him. Thats not how a leader behaves. Let alone the monumental failure of communication. Can you imagine if a single authority figure withheld all the details of the mission to themselves?
Being a leader isn’t about issuing orders and commands, it’s about communication, guidance,…leading. Holdo didnt lead anyone to anything. she did the opposite, she acted like a fascist and a draconian head of state. so if you want to draw comparisons lets look at the context. She looked and behaved like a corrupt leader, so a rebellion is a consequence of oppression. He is a rebel afterall, and Holdo didnt seem any better than your imperial scum.
In contrast, the storming of the capitol was not justified, as they were working against a transparent and democratic transition of power. In rebellions context is everything, you are not automatically in the wrong to rebel.
I swear if no one said “subvert expectations” before this movie came out, no one would think the movie was actively trying to do that. It at the very least wouldn’t be The Buzzword for TLJ criticism. Take everything in the film at face value - not in conversation about director’s intent - and there’s not a whole lot about it that plays with conventions as much as people like to say it does.
Pulling the rug out from under people only to pull it back in is the kind of pretentious thing the film gets accused of. I don’t see how that would fix the issues people are dead set on wanting it to have.**
**not that the film doesn’t have real problems
That is absolutely not true, and it can be demonstrated.
TLJ is a rethread of TESB and ROTJ… except it has a twist on key points.
You have your dagobah system/ach to) scene with a reluctant Yoda/Luke. Except Luke doesnt train Rey (subverted expectations)
You have your relationship between the Emperor/Snoke and their puppet Kylo/Vader… except Kylo rebels against his master (subverted expectations)
You have Luke skywalker, a proven hero from the OT, passed around like this fake Legend whose heroic acts never happened. This point comes across in that line where he says “do you expect me to face the entire First Order feel with a laser sword?” … yes dude, we do. Because thats what you did before! (subverted expectations)
Again, Luke, probably the most generous and kind hearted character in the OT. Becomes this bitter old man who left his friends to die after considering to murder his nephew in his sleep. (subverted expectations)
Lukes over the shoulders saber throw like a cheap comedy movie, instead of realizing how important the passage of that Saber is (subverted expectations)
Rey, whose past is unknown but she clearly has had training in the force before since she can do everything. No, she’s a nobody and her powers and skill are of unknown origin (Potential in the force without training is a blunt knife) (subverted expectations)
Throne room scene, emperor/Snoke looks at the rebel fleet, while taunting Luke/Rey. Except Rey has no agency in the scene and instead Kylo Kills his Master (subverted expectations)
Rey, this beacon of light. Unwavering and pure hearted starts falling in love with a man who murdered the closest thing to a father figure she ever had in front of her own eyes (subverted expectations)
Continuity from The Force Awakens. No continuity, entire potential plot threads thrown out of the window. (subverted expectations)
Theres a lot more, but yeah, TLJ definitely does try too hard to subvert everyone’s expectations. In fact it sacrifices narrative and character development in order to do so.
Yeah.
Also, that Poe mutiny in TLJ is very interesting to come to mind about now. Everyone who felt personally attacked by the movie and overidentified with Poe… just interesting, that’s all.
Poes reaction in TLJ was completely justified, and a result of poor leadership. Im not sure theres any comparisons to be drawn to the terrorist act from weeks ago.
Well why the hell did Vader deserve redemption?
He didn’t, we tolerated it because Vader was well written and it was easier for us to feel that his love for his son was enough to make him turn back.
At least Kylo had layers, some obvious conflict.
Mm, this is an odd one. Vader had many more layers than Kylo. Vader was always in conflict, he was a slave to the dark side. Kylo chose to be the monster he became and I honestly don’t think the movies gave us reasons for him to have let darkness grown inside of him.
But conversely…
- Luke learns the error of his ways and becomes a true hero
What error? He was right, the Jedi should end, his explanation to Rey as to why the Jedi order failed was the truth. And he wasn’t the hero, he bought the resistance some time instead of actually stopping the first order. Rey saved the resistance in the end.
- It’s not whether you buy from a black market but what you choose to do
- Poe learns the error of his ways and becomes a true leader
… By leading the resistance out of a tunnel? I would say he was far more of a leader in TFA where he lead a platoon that destroyed the starkiller base. What did he do in TLJ?
- Rey is tempted by the darkside and rejects it and becomes a true hero
Lol, that is a very low bar to be a hero.
- Finn tries an act of stupidity and a hero saves him
Finn tries to save the resistance by striking the core of the canon. Rose prevented that, not to mention one of the lamest lines of dialogue in all of star wars.
- Holdo is a gruff unlikeable character trope, the kind who has their heart in the right place all along
Doesn’t make her a good character. She was a bad leader, confrontational and irresponsible. She failed to disclose her plan to the second in command… And that line “if you only believe it when you can see it…” ugh. Who writes this stuff.
Personally the stakes are irrelevant, small or big, the overall movie is what matters. Which is … a mixed bag.
Stakes is what defines a hero,otherwise everyone is a hero. Which is an oxymoron.
Whether you think he deserves it or not, Kylo was pretty obviously being set up for redemption every step of the way. They’ve basically confirmed this saying it was the plan all along.
How though? Not in the first one, not in TLJ. What scenes pointed in that direction?
Outisde of TRoS nothing did, and there lies the big development flaw of this character.
Lest we forget, the concept art for TFA was far more interesting than what we got, so it’s really difficult to even speculate on the look of the final result.
True, but the concept and leaked scripts for TRoS looked much worse than this one, if it’s of any indication.
So one of the things that upsets me the most about the sequel trilogy is Kylo’s redemption. Personally I don’t feel he deserves or was setup to be redeemed.
In TFA he clearly moves away from his family to became a dark sider for no good reason. He had the love of Leia and Luke, he turned away from it all just to pursue… something? the movies never really explain his motivation to go to the dark side, was it lust for power? Maybe in the comics it will be clearer but its kinda late now.
Anyway, he kills his father just so he breaks away from the light in a deliberate decision. Right there, the most personal act of evil in the series (not even Vader could kill his son) setting him apart from Vader. And at that point it was clear to me they were setting Kylo up to be this ultimate villain.
In TLJ, he throws another tantrum just because Snoke tells him he was no Vader and ends up killing him… that commitment to the dark side wasn’t there apparently (enough to kill his father, not enough to finish training). So again, Kylo is erratic, unstable and doesn’t know what he wants. Well, we all know what he wants - Rey, but he doesn’t deserve her. He is a monster that pursues her, tries to manipulate her… a murderer trying hard to have his victim run away with him. If this reminds you of any serial Killer story you’ve heard you wouldn’t be too far off, sick, demented and delusional. Personally I think its really disturbing that TROS really went for this Stockholm Syndrome BS.
By the end of TLJ Kylo was set on killing Luke and the Resistance, Rey included. He was rejected by her on the ship, and by the end of the movie she rejects him again by closing the Falcon door on him… a physical and symbolic act that sadly didn’t carry over TROS… By the end of TLJ Kylo was a savage animal, no control over his humanity.
People compare him to Vader… Anakin had to move to the dark side to save someone he loved, not because he wanted to. And by the time he had converted he was a slave to the dark side and couldn’t break free as showed in Return of the Jedi - “I must obey my master, I must take you to him” - Kylo was the opposite, he chose the dark side, he has no redeemable qualities.
TLJ loves the hell out of heroism, so I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I just fundamentally understand the movie differently than you, I guess.
Would you be able to show some examples of that? Because TLJ is pretty much a de-construction of Star Wars hero narrative. There are no heroes in TLJ.
Personally I don’t see any acts of heroism in TLJ, simply because the stakes aren’t that high in the movie.
This video nails how I feel about TLJ now:
Revisiting the Last Jedi (and why it is alright)
Like me the guy disliked the film, but has kind of come around to liking many elements of it, and feels there’s a great film at its core. The guy goes through what he feels are the strong, and weaker elements of the film in a pretty balanced manner.
I will never be convinced that TLJ is a good film, when it has terrible writing. The main arc makes no sense, its sub plots are redundant and devoid of character development. Every character in the move ends exactly where they left of in TFA.
This not to mention Prequel levels of cheese, like Rose’s forced romance, BB8 fighting people and driving a Walker, Holdos Disney approach to leadership - “if you only believe it when you see it, you will never make it through the night”.
The movie had potential, to take the force knowledge in a new direction… “the light, the dark… but there is so much more”. This was said by Luke in the trailer, and never realised in the movie. Despite Lukes initial attempts to shake things up (and he was 100% correct) the movie proves him wrong and claims Rey as the last Jedi. Why? After the first half of the movie trying to convince me the Jedi as a religion should end, why is she now one of them? Why not become an outcast, a Grey force user? Like Luke was in the legends. Someone who controls both light and dark…
It’s worth still taking these details with a grain of salt, but The Playlist is confirming it’s real, based on multiple sources: https://theplaylist.net/duel-of-the-fates-leak-colin-trevorrow-star-wars-20200114/
I watched a video reading the whole thing, while not perfect (duh) its so much better than what we got. And it feels like star wars. Loved the finnale and the Coruscant siege in look of the beacon.
I disagree with that article completely. Rey Palpatine wasn’t done for any storytelling reason, it was just done to please people who were pissed that Rey was a nobody in TLJ. And I really don’t like Rey taking the Skywalker name without permission, just because some ghosts smiled at her. If Jeff Bezos smiled at me, would that mean I’m a billionaire? Rey’s arc in TROS makes no sense, and it devalues TLJ’s message that anyone can be a hero. It’s one of those moments that was clearly designed to be a dig at TLJ, like “Go away, Rose!” and “A Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect.”
I hate that they used Palpatine of all things, but I feel it was to fill the void of a main villain in the saga now that Snoke is gone, and to explain why she was so powerful at everything with no real training of anything. She’s the first character in the Saga to do that and of course it requires a reason.
Me, I would just love for Luke to have trained her in TLJ. Wasted opportunity.
From a member who tries to twist moderators words to make a point, and in first posts on here said…
i would say TLJ fans are the ones who just use racism and sexism as a card against people who have genuine criticism of the movie. Its quite toxic really,
but when moderator challenges you, you then say…
Im sorry to hear there was indeed a lot of hate and racism thrown into the mix…
^ Yet you have no problem with throwing it around yourself!
Excuse me? The mod was refering to racist remarks used to bash the movies, or hate speech towards the actors. Something i never saw myself… Ths review i posted has non of that. Its a well written review…
This is exactly what i mean, any semblance of criticism makes some ultra sensitive people go mad and twist words and take things out of context. Its toxic, it destroys discussions and you are being an example of it.
Next time if you want to throw shade at someone check the material they posted instead of assuming things. And if you dont care for that material you wont be in a position to judge.
It wasnt my intention to detour the thread to discuss review formats, i know the video is long as it talks about the whole sequel trilogy, but going forward ill have those things in mind.
A ‘balanced review’ and ‘constructive criticism’? Doesn’t seem like it - and I’ve no wish spending two hours finding out.
;
Your choice of course. I find suspicious that people get put off by the name of the channel, honestly its clear to me that any review pointing put flaws and problems on the sequel trilogy wpuld get dismissed by random reasons.
Screen Rant for example is one of most thoughtful and chilled movie critiques on YouTube… But it has “rant” in the name so im going to dismiss it.
The unbridled rage take on the movie is here, and it’s awesome: https://youtu.be/0528-TlRODI
A 2 hour long youtube video from ‘MauLer’ on bashing TROS? Titled ‘TROS: An Unbridled Rage’?
No thanks - personally I’d rather watch something with balance to their videos, something without a pre-conceived agenda - and not 2 hours of a ‘video ranting about a crappy movie’ - or ‘Disney’s failure is now complete’.
Though fair play to those that do.
Its a very fair, balanced review though. That said, i understand how people who loved the movie cant take well constructed criticism, as seen with TLJ.
Fyi, its not a rant or enraged review despite the name of the channel.
The unbridled rage take on the movie is here, and it’s awesome: https://youtu.be/0528-TlRODI
Empire, but i love ROTJ very much so, its a close second.
Just because someone prefers some SE stuff doesn’t mean they don’t want the OUT released.
this doesn’t change the fact that I am still baffled by someone preferring this particular SE change on a site that was explicitly created to preserve and promote/petition for the original theatrical versions of the Original Trilogy .
I just assumed it was a site for people who love thr original trilogy. Why must things be seen in absolutes?
It was weird as hell to see Luke call hom Palpatine. In the OT he was known as the Emperor, in TLJ Luke calls him Sideous.
People don’t overcome their shortcomings and then never ever make them ever again for the rest of their life, though.
His mistake in this example is “seeing that his nephew will commit genocide on a scale his father never dreamed of and instinctually flicking on a lightsaber” - before immediately feeling a flood of total shame at himself in response. It’s actually a lesser mistake, considering the first time he tried to save one of his genocidal relatives he kicked the hell out of him and then cut his hand off before just barely managing to stop himself from delivering the killing blow.
Nobody solves a problem in their life once and then it stays solved forever. Even real life heroes struggle with those sorts of things. That he made that mistake (among others, including subtly succumbing to hubris and vanity) doesn’t erase his maturation as a character (especially considering the rest of the film’s characterization of Luke, and Hamill’s amazing work in bringing it depth and meaning). It complicates it, but by the end of the film’s arc, it’s enriched. Luke does something no Jedi’s ever done, not even Yoda. He only unlocks the potential and ability within himself to do that because he learns - finally - from the failures he kept incurring (as we all do) when his life continued past “happily ever after.”
I think you nailed it. His mistake in that flashback is minor except that he Ben catches him doing it and lashes out. Had Ben not been on the verge, that would not have happened. Luke makes a minor mistake and Ben goes into a rage. That shows that Snoke had already turned him. Luke isn’t about to Kill Ben. And I have said many times that Luke in TLJ very much pulls from the Luke we saw in the OT. His stand at the end of ROTJ was great, but that is a moment. I really feel the rest of ROTJ and the two previous films is more true to his character and insisting that he must live up to that high point of heroism at the end of ROTJ is lifting him above being human and putting him on a pedestal. TLJ brings humanity back to the character and makes him more real and relatable like he was in the OT.
You guys are missing the point, Luke already had his failure arc, not in Return of thr jedi, but in empire stris back.
Luke did nothing wrong in ROTJ, he had motives to kill vader, and lol “cold blooded”… It was a battle for life,Vader threatened his sister so he did what he needed to do.
The point is Star wars is not a depiction of reality, its about heroism and positive inspiration. Luke was an inspiration, now he is a grumpy uncle. Realist? Yes. Desirable? Hell no. And the worst of all having this grumpy Luke works agains Reys character development and works against the movie.
So i loved Luke and i loved Rey, TLJ ruined both. They were both useless, undecided morons.