At least some bits are salvageable from all that time, money, effort spent. Sorry that (much) more of it wasn’t what you had hints would be there for you. 😦
What are you using for the upscaling?
You saying “broadcast equipment,” that sounds cool and isn’t the likes of something we see mentioned here too often. Interesting, and welcome aboard 😃
I’m in rather the same boat as BedeHistory731. I’ll just leave it at that. 😃
Great update, thanks for the details.
I have a suggestion that I think would solve a lot of these issues: Just get the original 16mm negatives of all that material and have Peter Jackson’s company scan it all in 4k for you, and let them know what you do want done and not left alone on the scans. Yay! So simple, bet you’re kicking yourself for not thinking of it 😉
Bridger12 said:
The Archive.org version will be fully uncompressed, right?
Maybe someone will correct me because I’ve missed or not considered something, but I’d suspect a fully uncompressed file of this, even only the video — high bit depth to keep the color and all — would be over a TB. Even using Lagarith lossless results in a HD feature file being over 200GB, and fully uncompressed (at least what I’ve seen in my playing around) results in MUCH bigger file sizes than using Lag.
So, I’d assume Venny wouldn’t be trying to upload things in the 200GB-2TB range onto Archive.org … but if anyone throws info at me to correct me on any of that above I’m all ears in my mere hobbyist-ness. 😃
The Probert concept was for…
Thanks for that info and the images. I think I read about that back in 2001-ish, but obviously it slipped out of my mind since. Nice and concise tell and show of what it was supposed to be! 😃
@WXM can you improve the shot like what was done with the empire strikes back scenes in revisited like what was done to the green screen scenes etc.
I’ve ceased doing elaborate help because I’ve kind of fallen behind the times on software; I’m far from a lot of the fan effects gurus around now, and honestly I’ve just learned that for me it’s a little too thankless in the end to put so much mind power and such into these kinds of things that can take a long time and/or are elaborate (unlike cleaning up specks/scratches from a couple of minutes of Brave Little Toaster).
However, I’m guessing there will be at least one talented fan who’ll tackle the lounge shot and do a great job of it, surely better than I could do with my limited software. With the 4k of the TR/SLV to give everyone great foundation footage, yeah, don’t worry, someone will tackle it and have it look awesome 😃
It was possible to update the effects in empire strikes back with adywan doing hoth with revisited so how is this impossible for a fan or even a major studio to do?
[Edit: Oops, this turned out long, sorry!] Fans don’t have time constraints and budgets restrictions and more. Pros have to coordinate with other individuals and other departments and deal with hardware set-ups that may not be their first choice, and they have to show their output to studio higher-ups for approval, and more. It’s a complicated web, mess, of interaction surely always walking a tightrope due to time constraints, rarely with a blank check safety net.
A fan, on the other hand, can work on only what they want, at their leisure, pick projects to begin with that are within their parameters of full comfort/desire, use only their fave software on a computer system they built themselves, do all this without having to answer to anyone else. A fan can seek help from others on their own terms (without legal hassles/contracts or even without paying someone) if there’s a bit they personally can’t quite do something themselves. (Because he couldn’t do such himself I did CG shots on Adywan’s New Hope Revisited — the Death Star plans graphics and the “40 Tie Fighters flying in” — I worked on those bits off and on for ten months; so he got targeted skill goals met for those shots of his project without having to pay anyone, deal with paperwork, etc., unlike professional studio environments that have to coordinate and juggle all that and more, especially budget.)
These guys/gals at studio departments surely have MASSIVE lists of things they have to get done within a time frame. One bit of my work on Adywan’s New Hope was making a Death Star mesh from scratch. That took me about a month, me working on it when I was in the mood, only when I felt charged to do the work. I could take a month “having fun” with it because there was no deadline. What if I had a five-day crunch to do it, couldn’t “hire” anyone to assist me for the more tedious parts of the modeling (couldn’t get help even for free because of legal reasons) and on my workload list for the whole project was also to make meshes for the three Star Destroyer types, Tie Bomber mesh, several beat-up variant meshes of X-Wings, Luke’s landspeeder with 100% matching damage to what’s in the film, and an AT-AT? Yes, I will have accepted the work because I thought I could do it, but what about any snags cropping up (like Covid or whatever)? What if I was locked to a partner on the project — he does texturing while I do modeling — and it turned out he was tripping up and dragging me down like an anchor while we’re on deadline and I couldn’t just replace him as my partner due to seniority structure? And if he and I tripped up, took longer than we were supposed to, the cost might be that the scene layout/rendering department would have to make up time by implementing some unfortunate shortcuts like sloppy compositing and shittier-quality rendering.
Getting a fan to help… There are pipelines that work certain ways; I imagine it’s not as easy as just getting a fan to do this shot or that and wallah, put their work into that of teams of professionals. Yes, one would think, but for reasons I’m not privy too it rarely seems to work out this way.
The solution of course is for Paramount to spend more money, hire more people to spread out the workload, but… When it comes to big studio spending, who knows what’s going on? So much messiness when it comes to that kind of thing. Let’s compare real quick the new Obi Wan Kenobi series and the latest Orville ep 4. I’m not a big fan of The Orville overall, but one has to admit that at times — yeah, I have s03xe04 stuck in my head — Orville looks a LOT better than pretty much everything in OWK, even though the latter has a budget of $25m per episode. What’s the excuse? OKW is official modern Star Wars, starring cast from Lucas-directed films, and freakin’ Trek parody Orville has much better effects (and a kicker is that ultimately both are Disney shows so one can’t even point out the studios making just have different philosophies). There’s surely a lot going on when having to coordinate thousands of people under contracts and such that make it messy in ways that are hard to both comprehend.
I’ll cease my rambling now. 😃
What the heck were they going for but failed with the 4k version of that scene?
I don’t recall the why’s behind it, but this is what they were going for… In the DVD version the windows are supposed to be ones on the (back right) edge of the saucer (these windows can be seen on the model IIRC). I believe this location of the lounge is the case for the TR as well, but the effects team didn’t have time to composite in the nacelle as would be proper for that view (so the 2001 DE team tried to fix that “incomplete effects shot”).
For the 4k they have switched to having our people in the area at the back of the large lump atop the saucer, which has different shaped windows (as per what we see behind our characters in the 4k version). Again, I don’t recall the issue that prompted this change, but hopefully that explains a little what you see in those pics.
What does it look like on the dvd version of the director’s cut?
Scroll down this page to get the 3-way comparison, fifth one down…
DMC, I’m not seeing too many post-received thank yous here so I’ll offer mine. Thank you 😃 You’ve been keeping this alive for everyone for over half a year now. Very cool of you!
Also while here, for those who don’t know, the great YouTube Channel Defunctland did a wonderful 6-part series on Jim Henson and his creations. Average length of each ep is half an hour. Link to the playlist…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVoGf1JTVeI&list=PLplWWKocAfTYIGzH8eQ0x0kEQgoV9CpYm
(In case the link is not allowed and gets removed just search in YT for “DefunctTV: Jim Henson”)
Attempting contact would likely result in nothing or might open up cans of worms for reasons you said, but sometimes fan passion for something can blossom surprising results; I guess seeing how in the Brave Little Toaster 35mm thread here — where contact has been made and discourse carried out with the filmmakers — just urged me to want to present that idea here.
layswave, mediamogul, and others here… Has anyone tried contacting people who made the movie (ala producers or other people behind making Nothing Lasts Forever)? The first post of this thread was seven years ago with no big release of material found in the interim — and the movie is almost four decades old — so by this point maybe it’s worth seeing if one of the makers (now in their 60s? 70s?) might be happy to supply things to big fans of their film, might be happy to see it so appreciated.
If anyone has the Halloween (1978) LD audio that’s supposed to be the best — preferably in flac or wav but HQ ac3 would do if that’s all anyone has — I’d love to get that if someone reading here has it, I’d be very thankful, thanks! 😃
… I’ll ask if anyone’s seen it? Thoughts?
Yes I have. I’m glad that it exists, and it probably is the best way to watch this film, but…
(Further) S P O I L E RS
I actually went out to watch it in a theater on Monday evening (Fathom event). I agree with pretty much all you said about the visuals. (The audio items you listed admittedly went unnoticed to me.) Bones in the lounge, yeah, what happened?
Also, the CG shuttle landing (in SF) jumped out at me as… unfortunate I’ll just say so as not to sound too mean as I’m sure everyone who worked on this whole version poured out blood, sweat and tears these last few years. Still…
I’m also not a fan of the sparkly credits. I saw a side-by-side reminder of the DVD DE version (which I saw only once a long time ago) and I would’ve (much) preferred them just taking that same route over the sparkly-ness.
I assume they didn’t have the budget for it, but some of the matte line issues (in the few shots they didn’t redo the compositing for)… I don’t know all the tools out there, but it seemed like those matte lines could’ve been taken care of or at least diminished much more than they were.
However, in the showing I went to there were only two other people, so I can imagine Paramount will feel they were correct to not spend more money on further clean up (I understand most people are seeing it streaming, but only two others for the event? 😦).
Still, the movie has stuck with me the last few days. Not saying I was blown away, but some things work for it for sure despite some larger issues in regards to the movie itself and a few small ones to be found in this 4k DE. At least that’s my little two cents.
The 4kDE has been showing for a few days now and no comments from anyone so I guess I’ll go ahead and ask if anyone’s seen it? Thoughts?
Am I allowed to share a link here for contacting writer/director…
Maybe not so much a problem of not allowed according to forum rules but is probably not a good idea as this is a totally open public forum. Ya don’t even have to be a member here to look at posts. I would think someone who worked so prominently on a theatrical release film of this stature wouldn’t want his contact info so open, but perhaps he’s more a unique case and wouldn’t mind?
That b&w 16mm print of the original The Cage also was shown at a smallish sci-fi convention in San Francisco in 1985, “Creation Con”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_Entertainment
I was there; Majel Barret was there in person and introduced it herself. This was obviously well before ST:TNG so a slight irony thinking back to it is that this screening was really low-key compared to what you’d imagine. The room for this wasn’t huge, no stage or podium or anything (maybe even no mic? I can’t remember).
It was just her standing at the front of the room speaking to those who had showed up (not that many people there), telling what was about to be run in the 16mm projector, almost more like just a teacher showing a 16mm film before a class than a room filled with awe and reverence and electricity and applause; was kind of just one event of many in a room of the venue (as opposed to being rather being a centerpiece the convention was highlighting in the big room as would’ve been the case 5-7 years later).
This is NOT me saying it wasn’t cool, that no one there cared, but the relative low-key-ness just really sticks out at me now, prompting me to share that aspect.
She brought that print with her obviously, and from how she introduced it she considered it a rather special, cherished thing from their private collection that she wanted to share.
(Small disclaimer: this was obviously almost four decades ago, so there’s a chance some details are a little off, like maybe it was late '84 instead of '85, etc., so don’t take the above as solid as video/audio evidence of how it went.)
Don’t think I am sorry, I am essentially describing a "Fan Edit " I am producing and posted it under the “Fan Edits” section here? lol
This site has a “Star Wars fan edits” area and a “for Other Properties” (other than SW/not SW) and you’ve posted in the latter with your SW project, that’s what Joshieboy’s referring to. Here
https://originaltrilogy.com/discussion/Star-Wars-Fan-Edits-and-Other-Projects/id/9
Yeah, sorry to hear your work might be going to waste now. Some things you might want to know is the scene where the PAL and NTSC DVDs have “ghosting” when the Lamp is dancing around is actually on this print as well and probably an error with an optical effect
Well, I’m going to stand a little behind Octorox (because of course I am!😃). Other than the opening (that I cleaned up) I think it’s a pretty darned good presentation and not necessarily so easily ready to be tossed in a rubbish bin in the future. Watching the rest of his release, all the dirt/specks combined could fit within one second of that opening section it was that clean. I know that dirtiness isn’t a be all and end all for this kind of thing, far from it, but…well, I just think/hope there’ll still be room for Oct’s version to exist when this one is done, just because. 😃 But maybe I’ll be proven wrong!
I’ll stop clogging your thread with this big biased-ness though.
Interesting about that ghosty bit. Man, I love the look of that aqua tile in the background in your frame there. Lots of nice artistry went into this movie!
Oh man, really? …only a few weeks after I nearly give myself carpal t from cleaning those 2309 frames in photoshop?! The universe is wacky and near cruel with this stuff sometimes! 😃
But seriously, that’s cool news. I’m too poor to donate though. And also, the time I put in on Octorox’s has me feeling I’ve paid the Brave Little Toaster fan release gods their due. 😃
Good luck with this! Hopefully donations come your way
You seem very knowledgeable about this so just one more question
Note that I don’t have any direct experience working in TV. I’ve been in TV stations and on TV, and once needed to provide my short film on one of those big formats for a movie festival (cost a relative fortune), but my info here is in the general realm, I do not have good hands-on knowledge of all this by a long shot. If others with more hands-on info had replied I would’ve kept my mouth shut for sure. 😃
I still do not quite understand what a broadcast master is, Is it a copy of the tape distributed to TV stations?
Again, I’m not an expert, but I’m guessing you really want to know here (unless I’m mistaken): The tape behind the EditDroid SW Holiday Special, was it a/the top master tape that was used to make copies for TV stations or was it one of the copies that was sent to TV stations? My guess is the latter as there were surely a LOT of those sent out in 1978 and with these kinds of things getting some highest tier master just doesn’t happen it seems.
However, I’m just guessing. I don’t know the ins and outs of how TV broadcast tapes were reproduced or the specifics of this tape we’re talking about. It just seems most likely the tape source for EditDroid was one that a TV station had as there were surely a good number of those put out into the world then for the airing. Hell, since VCRs were so rare back then, maybe there were actually more TV broadcast tapes of SWHS in existence at the end of 1978 than there were home recordings of it! 😮 It seems we’ll never be closing to knowing though, huh? It would be interesting if there was a record of info on this ala “There were a total of ____ tapes of SWHS sent out to TV stations during {timeframe} 1978,” but something like that is just lost to time I assume.
what is a Broadcast master?
In general/simple terms… TV stations used (much) higher end media (tapes) compared to home recording (VHS, Betamax). You’ve surely seen those bits of “reveal footage” from news programs and game shows and such where you get a glimpse of those HUGE studio cameras (which has always been the case). Those million-dollar monster cameras wouldn’t be recording to just flimsy little VHS tapes and their weak signals, right? (And that’s putting aside that TV stations were of course recording way before VHS or Betamax existed.) Yes, the resolution was still the same — NTSC in the U.S. — but there was much more detail packed into the signal over VHS and other home formats.
(Taking about after things switched from reel to reel…) These TV broadcast cassettes generally looked similar to home VCR tapes, but were larger, the tape wider, more inches of tape moved for recording, which gave them much higher fidelity (within the locked resolution) than their smaller home cousins. I.e., it was a much higher end realm of (video tape) media.
Did you edit each frame for the entire movie, i’m imagining something like photoshop’s content aware fix tool?
I did only the first 1m45s or thereabouts, and my method was relatively primitive so definitely not the entire movie. (I don’t even know what that tool you mentioned is! 😃) Much of it was copying bits from the right or left of the problem spot to do patching, or when I was lucky (no gradients, grain, detail, etc. to worry about) I could just do airbrushing. But there were a number of spots with zooms where I had to re-size patches. Ugh to those cases and how long they take! (But they do look good when done.) I wish I had super software to make it easier, but I don’t. (My photoshop is old…but it gets the job done)
Largely what I did was stuff that most regular paint programs do: just load in a frame (image file), deal with the bad spot, save it…over and over and over…then eventually connect all the frames back together in an avi.
Beyond that damaged section (the in opening), Octorox’s up-scaled version looks GREAT! I’d almost say that any ten seconds of the part I worked on has as many blemishes as the whole rest of the movie combined, it looks that good/clean.
I can’t tell if you guys are serious.
I was being serious about suspecting CatBus actually doesn’t know what Star Wars is. If you showed him an image of an X-Wing he’d probably say “that’s just a Viper with four things instead of three.”