Voss Caltrez

RogueLeader said:

I don’t mean people saying “It is wrong for you to like the new movies.” But I think people trying to say these movies are objectively bad is a form of gatekeeping.

Oh, okay, I see what you mean.
Yeah, while I think there’s some faults here and there with the ST, Disney has definitely recaptured the spirit of the OT, and there good fantasy-adventure films. I went in, expecting to hate TLJ, and found it to be really good, better than TFA.

I think that a significant portion of the extreme criticism of the ST is due to politics and monetized Youtube videos.
Some people exaggerate the flaws of TFA and TLJ in order to get clicks and subscribers.
Instead of objective film criticism, some is just pandering to tell people what they want to hear.

Mocata said:

I love that he goes on about Aliens so much (a movie I love) but then misses how laboured and on the nose the motherhood themes are after Ripley was just a straight edge pro in the original that was written without gender. If you wanted to be really silly about this it would be just as easy to suggest that like Terminator 2 James Cameron can’t help making his leads into simple child bearing stereotypes who must overcome very basic fears to become mothers/heroes.

Good point.
Also, the character of Ripley could also be accused of “pushing an agenda” since the lone voice of reason is a woman, arguing against a majority of stupid men.

RogueLeader said:

And George Lucas was the one who spearheaded the Special Editions and the Prequels. People back then wanted George’s head on a pike, but now people long to have George back and suddenly appreciate his “genius”.

Are you keeping track of the people who wanted “George’s head on a pike” to see if these same people are calling the prequels “genius”?

I myself have heard a small portion of overall critics of the new Star Wars, saying stuff like “at least the prequels attempted to do something different,” or “it had a good story, it just wasn’t executed well.”
I’ve only come across ONE Youtube video that was slamming the ST while playing up how good the OT and PT was. But it was like a 5 minute video from a channel that was pretty generic, and had other videos like “Top 5 cringe moments in Hollywood,” and “10 you didn’t know about Stranger Things” (ex: #4 the series is based on the stories of Stephen King).

So were the fans wrong then to criticize him enough to make George want to sell the franchise and not make his own sequel trilogy? Fans are quick to talk about how they miss George, but are so quick to forget who ran him off in the first place. If we were being unfair to George then, how can you tell me with any certainty that people aren’t being unfair to Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm now?

George Lucas wanted to continue the series by focusing on the “Whills” and how the midichlorians worked.
Maybe it was good he sold it.

Me, personally, I like Rey as a character.
After seeing an unlikable Anakin and a dull Obi-Wan in the prequels, Rey is a breath of fresh air.
She wants desperately to find her place, to belong, to find her parents.
She’s likable, charismatic, and funny.

I don’t have a problem with Rey specifically, but more just the overall writing of The Force Awakens.
I think it has less to do with Rey being a woman, and more to do with the fact that the producers just want to give fans the obligatory starship dog-fights and lightsaber battle.

Rey and Finn are able to skillfully outmaneuver the New Order’s starships, but also shoot down experienced fighter pilots. It’s “explained” merely with Rey and Finn themselves acting surprised. “Have you ever done that before?” “No!” “Me either!”

Then we have to have the obligatory lightsaber battle, even though Rey has had no Jedi training whatsoever.
So they just have her close her eyes right before the fight, so audiences can see her using the Force to download Jedi lightsaber dueling skills.

For me, it seemed rushed.
I didn’t have a problem with the writing for Rey in The Last Jedi. They explained her incredible connection the Force sufficiently enough.

RogueLeader said:

^^Agreed, joe!

I don’t know. At least growing up I was oblivious to the prequel bashing. I was able to enjoy the movies outside that bubble for the most part. I hope kids nowadays aren’t having that problem, like being told they’re wrong for liking these new movies.

I haven’t come across anyone saying someone is wrong for liking the new movies.
With that said, people in general have been criticized for liking things for the longest time.
Star Wars is part of nerd culture and things like sci-fi and comic books have always had a stigma attached to them. Even romance novels have a stigma attached to them.
Then you have Marvel vs. DC where fans young and old argue about which side is better, and how the other film universe sucks.

joefavs said:

RogueLeader said:

At least they actually have fun watching these movies, and their conversations are generally positive.

This. When your relationship with Star Wars consists largely of railing against Star Wars, you’re doing Star Wars wrong.

I disagree.
Take for example the case of the heavy criticism against the prequels and the OT Special Editions, I’d argue it’s not the fans doing Star Wars wrong, it’s the producers literally doing Star Wars wrong.

NeverarGreat said:

Voss Caltrez said:

@NevararGreat

Did you write a prequel story with clones who fight to live?

No, but wasn’t that the original idea of the Clone Wars from Lucas? I remember something about the clones being from rich families intent on gaining political power. My most developed outlines had the clones either follow the AOTC canon or have them be Bossk-esqe aliens who have ceased evolving with recombinant DNA and settled for massive replication.

Oh, okay.
Well, anyways, you’re above premise for how the prequels should have been was great. I like how their two different beliefs (family man vs nomad) would eventually and logically move them apart.

@NevararGreat

Did you write a prequel story with clones who fight to live?

There’s a lot of tangles in what was implied from the original trilogy.

“You fought in the clone wars?”
That felt like a throw away line, but I assumed that there was were multiple wars involving clones. Like The Punic Wars. I also assumed that Obi-wan had had a long Jedi career, that involved him being involved in possibly multiple wars.

“I haven’t been called Obi-Wan since before you were born.”
This gives the film a nice past, as if so much had happened PRIOR to ANH. But it doesn’t make sense if you think about it. It’s assumed that Luke was conceived while Anakin was still good, and that means that Anakin hadn’t yet turned to the Dark Side, joined the Emperor and help establish the Empire.

“Powerful Jedi was he, powerful Jedi.”
It makes it sound like Anakin was this super powerful Jedi, but prior to his fall, we didn’t see him do anything that average Jedi couldn’t do.

“When I met you father, he was the best pilot in the galaxy.”
Anakin clearly had a different career prior to becoming a Jedi.

“You father’s lightsaber…he wanted you to have it.”
This implies that Anakin either knew he was going to have a kid, or that Luke was already born when he said that.

fmalover said:

Setting aside my love for TLJ, I must say the movie contains what is IMO the most problematic line of dialogue in the ST, which is: “Selling weapons to the First Order”. Is Rose really telling us that the New Republic is run by a bunch of paupers who can’t afford shit? Even then I called bullshit.

Okay, so the New Republic didn’t want a strong military, because they didn’t want the temptation of becoming like the Old Empire, and they didn’t want to intimidate their member worlds.
But then, by doing so, they were able to be destroyed by the First Order.

Rose is upset about lifeforms selling weapons to the First Order, and getting rich, and that’s a real world reference to weapons manufacturers, to make the story relevant to younger audiences.

It seems like a no-win situation.
Strong military=you become corrupt fascists.
Weaken your military=you become vulnerable to terrorists/future fascists.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Voss Caltrez said:

A question about the Jedi’s vast abilities.

Jedi can read minds, levitate stuff, Force people and things, jump super high, see glimpses of the future, and slice through anything with their lightsaber.

In a one-on-one fight, how is anybody even a match for them, who is not a Sith?
They can deflect laser blasts, cut through regular melee weapons like nothing, and if they want, just push people out the way with their minds.

It worked out great in the OT, Luke was just beginning to learn the ways of the Force, so there was plenty of challenges for him to face.

But in Obi-Wan’s time, or even Qui-Gon Jinn’s, how was there any real challenge for a Jedi, outside of fellow Force users, like Sith Lords? Their were numerous Jedi back then and they were all well trained and adept witht he Force, and not late bloomers like Luke.

It just seems like with all their abilities, any fights they had would be pretty boring. I mean, apparently the Sith had been extinct for a long time until Darth Maul showed up.

Stuff like this is why I’ve come to lament the introduction of telekinesis and other physical powers to the Force.

For me, yeah and no.
Yeah, because, damn, they’re like Dr. Manhattan. Where’s the challenge?
And no, because the telekinesis is what made them more than just space knights. Yoda being able to lift Luke’s star ship-great moment.

Maybe if they didn’t make using the Force for telekinesis so easy later on.
Luke needs to concentrate a lot to get his lightsaber out of the snow. Yoda needed to close his eyes and focus intently to lift the x-wing out of the swamp.

But later on, it’s like they don’t even need to focus hard to use it. They Force-push droids out the way, Force pull their lightsaber out their holster because their to lazy to use their arm, Force-floating fruit to impress girls.
Even in Empire Strikes Back, Luke did some kind of super speed jump that still looks weird. ROTJ, Vader can read Luke’s mind.
It’s like, Holy Crap, what can they not do. I mean, you can’t even keep secrets from them. They’ll just read your mind?

A question about the Jedi’s vast abilities.

Jedi can read minds, levitate stuff, Force people and things, jump super high, see glimpses of the future, and slice through anything with their lightsaber.

In a one-on-one fight, how is anybody even a match for them, who is not a Sith?
They can deflect laser blasts, cut through regular melee weapons like nothing, and if they want, just push people out the way with their minds.

It worked out great in the OT, Luke was just beginning to learn the ways of the Force, so there was plenty of challenges for him to face.

But in Obi-Wan’s time, or even Qui-Gon Jinn’s, how was there any real challenge for a Jedi, outside of fellow Force users, like Sith Lords? Their were numerous Jedi back then and they were all well trained and adept witht he Force, and not late bloomers like Luke.

It just seems like with all their abilities, any fights they had would be pretty boring. I mean, apparently the Sith had been extinct for a long time until Darth Maul showed up.

LexX said:

Voss Caltrez said:

In the Star Wars universe, what kind of pilots are there?

Luke wanted to get off the farm and join the Imperial academy as a pilot, so being a pilot in the military is one.
What others?

Of course there can be civilian pilots for shuttles, transports, freight ships up to a cruiser size vehicles. I doubt Luke was wanting to join the Empire or the Rebellion when he wanted to join the academy, just to get a pilot’s license or something and then gone off with that.

Ah, okay, thanks.
Shuttles, transports and freight ships gives me a better idea of the scope of piloting int SW universe.
I’m thinking that in Luke’s case though, it would be comparable to someone wanting to join the Navy or Air Force in order to fly jets. In “An Officer and a Gentleman,” Richard Gere wants to leave the squalor and do something with life. “I wanna fly jets!” So Luke would want something that requires some action, as opposed to becoming the SW equivalent of a airline pilot. And Empire or Rebellion, he’s off to see different places than just being stuck on the farm.

Shopping Maul said:

RogueLeader said:

The old Jedi Order took students from infancy in order to control their emotional attachments, which they saw as gateways to the dark side. This is why they were so reluctant to take on Anakin as a Jedi. I think it gave the wrong impression that learning how to use the Force took years, when that really isn’t the entirely the case. It has more to do with belief, and one’s ability to “let go of your conscious self”.

It also surprises me a little that people haven’t considered as much that the Force itself has changed between the trilogies. The Force isn’t a static ability, it’s dynamic and connected to life itself, making it in a way alive.

Episode 7 is literally called The Force Awakens. What does that mean? Is it not possible that this awakening is not partially responsible for the feats we’ve seen across the board in the new films, like Kylo Ren freezing blaster bolts, Rey’s fast-growing abilities, their subsequent Force-Skype sessions, Leia pulling herself back to the ship, Luke’s Force projection, even broom boy’s subtle Force pull?

You could even argue this began with Luke in the OT, the first real student of the Force since the Jedi Purge. He really only had a few weeks at most of official training with Yoda, but in Return of the Jedi, only a year later with no additional training under Yoda, he is on the verge of officially becoming a Jedi.

It raises some questions about the nature of the Force. Does the overall use of the Force have an affect on its potential in existing Force-users? Does the Force have a will of its own to choose who it acts through? Did training Jedi from infancy have a side-effect of limiting their relationship with the Force in ways that didn’t exist for those who discovered it at adulthood? Is the Force just like an ocean, where the tide can rise and fall?

I personally think these questions about the Force should really never be answered fully, and should remain mysterious, simple-yet-complicated, and sometimes contradictory, much like the Tao that inspired it, and also as a concept of a universal religion-symbol that George meant it to be, since religions are also endlessly debated upon.

I think the important theme we are meant to take from the Force is the ideas of faith and belief, the crux of all religions, and the internal power we can get from faith in our own lives, religious or not. Luke struggles with the Force in the OT because of his doubt in the Force and his own personal self-doubt.

Rey on the other hand grew up with the legend of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, and not long after learning about the reality of the them, she slowly learns that she’s also connected to this Force and begins her own journey of self-discovery and self-actualization.

With broom boy, moments before his Force use, he is being told the story of Luke Skywalker’s grand stand against the evil First Order, with wonder in his eyes. He believes in the Jedi, in the Force, and that subtle moment, something he might not have even realized he did, is a representation of what the power of faith and hope can have in the world and in ourselves.

Anyway, just my two cents. Not trying to argue, just sharing my perspective.

It’s all good dude, I love discussing this stuff. And I acknowledge that I’m the one being a ‘conservative’ fan here. Since the Force is a pretty nebulous concept, it makes sense that we’d all get a different sense of what it might be.

Lucas is notorious for changing his mind as he goes along, but for me the Force sits where he stated during the writing sessions for RoTJ circa 1981 - that the Force is basically ‘space yoga’ that anyone can do as long as they apply themselves. Luke’s journey (again IMO) is that of someone seeking a black belt and the mindfulness of a Bodhisattva. I didn’t agree with Han’s TFA claim that it was ‘a magical power’. I see it as an undiscovered science - something as ‘real’ as gravity or quantum physics that very disciplined souls can utilise.

But that’s just me. I don’t like the idea of Force genetics. I didn’t mind the idea of Jedi-ness running in the family in some vague way, but Midichlorians make it sound like you can attain enlightenment if you have the right blood type. That just kills it for me. The idea of a sentient Force that chooses its own saviours and balances itself through certain people doesn’t ring ‘true’ for me. All that stuff Snoke said about ‘awakenings’ and ‘the light rising to meet the dark’ I interpreted as a kind of anthropomorphic ‘cart before the horse’ summation of how certain characters were tapping into the Force after all this time. Again, I don’t like the idea of a ‘living Force’. I see the Force as an energy that changes according to use, not just because it ‘wants’ to.

I think it’s a bit dicey, in story terms, to make the powers easily attainable. In ep 4 the Force was all but forgotten. Han Solo had travelled far and wide and never seen anything to validate the idea. It makes sense in the context of the OT that attaining these powers requires serious discipline/focus and is only done by a dedicated few. Yes, there’s the supposed ‘quick and easy path’, but I don’t think that refers to just getting powers on a whim. I do like the idea of Rey as something of a ‘feral Jedi’ - someone who unknowingly taps into their own potential by virtue of doing it tough - but she has no limits and suffers no consequences whatsoever. Her lifting an entire mountainside with little effort and zero training invalidates Luke’s journey - as does Broom Boy to an extent. Was Luke just a terrible study then? Is levitation a piece of cake after all? Is the galaxy peppered with precocious kids that are Force-choking their parents and levitating their teachers because they don’t want to do their homework or eat their veges? No, it makes more sense that Jedi potential would manifest in subtle ways as it did with the Skywalkers - good reflexes, keen instincts etc. You could assess a kid at that level, turn them down for whatever reason, and be secure in the knowledge that they’re not suddenly going to start lifting mountains and Force-choking anyone who crosses them! It would require training.

But again, that’s just how I see it. Thanks for the awesome reply - it gave me a lot to ponder. Meditate on this I will…

I completely agree.

Despite the Disney SW trying to distance themselves from the Lucas prequels, I guess the idea of a “chosen one” is very appealing, and taps into the Messiah-trope. She’s this humble nobody, but apparently has more potential than Luke and Anakin combined.

If Luke is the son of some famous, powerful Jedi, him stumbling a long the way, and not quite getting it provides a nice contrast.
If Rey is some nobody, who happen to have some connection to the Force, but she struggles like Luke, it insinuates the idea that it’s because she’s a nobody, she doesn’t come from some famous lineage, and, it might imply that it’s because she’s a girl that she has to struggle.

In the Star Wars universe, what kind of pilots are there?

Luke wanted to get off the farm and join the Imperial academy as a pilot, so being a pilot in the military is one.
What others?
Is it either, be a fighter pilot, or have enough money to buy your own starship, live in it, and travel the galaxy?
Is there starship races in space?

SilverWook said:

His life before trying to flee with was like an Oliver Twist/Artful Dodger scenario, (street smart, but not cynical yet) only without a kindly father figure like Fagin running things. He trusted his ladyfriend at that point at least.
In any case, it’s Star Wars, not the mean streets of planet Earth.

Or it’s Star Wars, not the streets of mid-19th century London…wait a minute.

I still think SOLO was a fun movie, and it’s in tone with the eventual tone of Star Wars, post-ROTJ.
Just me personally, I wish SOLO’s origin story had a bit more edge to it.

SilverWook said:

Voss Caltrez said:

SilverWook said:

It really wasn’t an origin story so much as how Han met Chewie and got the Falcon, and we’ve known how he won it since 1980. The later Han Solo novels were much more lengthy and detailed in Han’s history than this movie. This was just a fun adventure like the early Brian Daley novels, which I’ve loved since I was a kid.
Are superheroes ruined for you because you know how they got their powers or decided to fight crime?

If any character’s origin is mysterious, it’s Yoda, and should remain so. And they’d better not de-mystify the Force by explaining that…oh crap…

Superheroes aren’t ruined by origin stories, because usually we know their origin stories from the get go.
There are rare exceptions like Wolverine, and many would argue that his eventual origin ruined the mystique of the character and was disappointing.

As far as the SOLO movie ruining Han…I don’t think it ruins the character, but it doesn’t do the character, as played by Harrison Ford, justice.
In ANH we get the impression that Han is a scoundrel, this shades-of-grey character, who shoots first. The good guys enlist his help, only in return for money. Or course Han has a change of heart at the end, but we’re led to believe he’s led a pretty questionable life up to that point.
In SOLO…

SPOILERS
.
.
.
.
.
He’s pretty vanilla. A very safe, acceptable Disney hero. He’s Aladdin.
Normally, I’d say that the character is ruined for me, but SOLO is so different from the character we saw in ANH that it feels more like fan-fiction, than canon.
It’s a fun movie, but again, very safe. I think Han Solo’s real backstory is a lot more crazy.

We’re seeing him at very beginning of his smuggler career. It would have been unrealistic to show young Han fully formed as the character we met in ANH. The Brian Daley books painted a good picture of Han as someone who rarely trusted anyone but his Wookiee pal. One character threw the question Where are the people in your life? at him. He plays at being cynical to avoid getting attached, avoid pain. But he also occasionally does the right thing. He smuggles weapons to a group who have little chance of defeating their oppressors, (outnumbered and inexperienced) but takes the time to show them how to work a blaster properly.
If we get a second movie, I’m sure we would see Han become more like that cynical guy who ended up smuggling drugs for Jabba. 😛

You make a good point that he’s at the beginning of his smuggling career.
But he’s not at the beginning of his criminal career.
He says in the film that he’s been running scams on the streets since he was 10.
I’d imagine that by the time he was 18 he would be a little more hardened.
It’s funny that he has to be taught, as an adult, “not to trust ANYONE.”
How would he have survived that long without having already had that type of attitude.
That’s something juvenile criminals learn early on.

You mention that he’s at the beginning of his smuggling career, so he’s a different Han from the one we see in ANH, right? And yet, not really. Han risks his life at the end of ANH to help the rebels. At the end of SOLO, he risks his life to help the rebels.

SilverWook said:

It really wasn’t an origin story so much as how Han met Chewie and got the Falcon, and we’ve known how he won it since 1980. The later Han Solo novels were much more lengthy and detailed in Han’s history than this movie. This was just a fun adventure like the early Brian Daley novels, which I’ve loved since I was a kid.
Are superheroes ruined for you because you know how they got their powers or decided to fight crime?

If any character’s origin is mysterious, it’s Yoda, and should remain so. And they’d better not de-mystify the Force by explaining that…oh crap…

Superheroes aren’t ruined by origin stories, because usually we know their origin stories from the get go.
There are rare exceptions like Wolverine, and many would argue that his eventual origin ruined the mystique of the character and was disappointing.

As far as the SOLO movie ruining Han…I don’t think it ruins the character, but it doesn’t do the character, as played by Harrison Ford, justice.
In ANH we get the impression that Han is a scoundrel, this shades-of-grey character, who shoots first. The good guys enlist his help, only in return for money. Or course Han has a change of heart at the end, but we’re led to believe he’s led a pretty questionable life up to that point.
In SOLO…

SPOILERS
.
.
.
.
.
He’s pretty vanilla. A very safe, acceptable Disney hero. He’s Aladdin.
Normally, I’d say that the character is ruined for me, but SOLO is so different from the character we saw in ANH that it feels more like fan-fiction, than canon.
It’s a fun movie, but again, very safe. I think Han Solo’s real backstory is a lot more crazy.

pleasehello said:

fmalover said:

JokerRulez said:

Here’s the HUGE gamble Disney is making:

fmalover said:

Right now, the only thing I’m really looking forward to regarding Star Wars is Rian Johnson’s SW Trilogy, after all Johnson has earned my full trust with TLJ. I wish I could say I’m looking forward to The Mandalorian, but I don’t have Disney+.

Can anyone create a whole new SW experience that is still , … well, Star Wars?

There is no guarantee of success. Will mediocrity be enough? It’s the only way the film franchise can continue long-term so they’ll invest hugely in this while exploiting all other avenues to milk the franchise (TV, theme parks, comics, etc.).

Oh, in my opinion Rian Johnson is the wrong guy to do this next piece of work given the divisive reaction to his only entry. Need a uniter rather than someone always looking to subvert expectations.

JokerRulez

I don’t get why TLJ is so divisive.

TFA was such a huge letdown I had no expectations in regards to the following episode, and in fact I fully expected TLJ to be a remake of TESB in the same way TFA is a remake of the first SW. Once a friend confirmed it wasn’t like that I was genuinely excited, went to see the movie, and once the credits started rolling, left the cinema with a sense of euphoria.

I don’t think Johnson was trying to subvert expectations, he was trying to come up with the best story he could write and direct, which he did brilliantly.

I don’t get why some people have such strong feelings against TFA. Yes, it hits almost the exact same plot points as Star Wars(blowing up a third Death Star was especially annoying). But since when has Star Wars been about super intricate and interesting plots?

The heart of Star Wars is in its characters and the drama that comes from their interactions. TFA succeeded marvelously at this; creating drama, emotion and fun new characters courtesy of spectacular performances from previously unknown actors. Yes, the plot is derivative, but it’s also almost irrelevant.

Good point, and I completely agree with you that the success of Star Wars is that it’s character driven.
But can a Star Wars film not aim a little higher? There’s a lot more competition in this genre than there was back in '78 and '80. You gotta step it up.

fmalover said:

JokerRulez said:

Here’s the HUGE gamble Disney is making:

fmalover said:

Right now, the only thing I’m really looking forward to regarding Star Wars is Rian Johnson’s SW Trilogy, after all Johnson has earned my full trust with TLJ. I wish I could say I’m looking forward to The Mandalorian, but I don’t have Disney+.

Can anyone create a whole new SW experience that is still , … well, Star Wars?

There is no guarantee of success. Will mediocrity be enough? It’s the only way the film franchise can continue long-term so they’ll invest hugely in this while exploiting all other avenues to milk the franchise (TV, theme parks, comics, etc.).

Oh, in my opinion Rian Johnson is the wrong guy to do this next piece of work given the divisive reaction to his only entry. Need a uniter rather than someone always looking to subvert expectations.

JokerRulez

I don’t get why TLJ is so divisive.

TFA was such a huge letdown I had no expectations in regards to the following episode, and in fact I fully expected TLJ to be a remake of TESB in the same way TFA is a remake of the first SW. Once a friend confirmed it wasn’t like that I was genuinely excited, went to see the movie, and once the credits started rolling, left the cinema with a sense of euphoria.

I don’t think Johnson was trying to subvert expectations, he was trying to come up with the best story he could write and direct, which he did brilliantly.

1. Because JJ Abrams said that TFA “had” to be a repeat of “A New Hope” to get audiences back on board with Star Wars. Once that first film was out the way, they could do their own thing for the next two.
   But…we got a repeat of ESB and a dash of ROTJ.

2)Hyping up Luke Skywalker and him wanting to be found, then ignoring all that and have him be all cranky and act out of character left a bad taste for many fans.

3)Where were the “Knights of Ren”? We get recycle shots of ESB, a widely criticized casino, detour, but nothing really new.

It felt like TFA was promoted heavily as GEORGE LUCAS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!
The practical effects were stressed, and we kept getting stories about how Disney rejected Lucas thoughts on Episodes 9, 10, and 11.

Ryan-SWI said:

I suppose I’ll throw my two cents in for what it’s worth.

A lot of people echo the sentiment that this current era of Star Wars is no more divisive than the prequel era. I think that’s a misrepresentation of the situation and the only people I see claiming that are those who vehemently defend any and all ST-era content. That’s not a dig at those who do, just to be clear, but I’m yet to see the opposite…

I think that ever since ROTJ, the Star Wars franchise have been running out of steam.
Lucas had this grand epic he wanted to tell, but he felt like he’d only get a crack at it with ONE film. So he smushed this 9-part story into 1 film. Unlikely hero Luke Skywalker ends up saving the galaxy! The end.
Wait, what? This cheesy space movie because a huge box office hit? Great, we’re rich!
We can get even richer by making a sequel!
So they make another film that pretty much ignores the ending of “A New Hope,” and ends with a cliffhanger, purposely so they can squeeze more money out of the audience for the obligatory third sequel, which will (hopefully) have a proper ending. This film is more depressing, everything ends badly.
But that twist! That keeps people talking. And what about “there is another”? Cheap tactics, but they work. It’s a hit.

Wait, how are we going to wrap this up? They don’t know what to do, so they recycle some of the stuff from the first one, Tattooine and the Death Star. What about “the other” Yoda spoke of? How are we going to explain that? Ummm, do another soap opera twist and have Leia be Vader’s kid too. And Leia can be “the other.” Lets just finish this thing up, because Lucas is tired.
Film’s a hit because moviegoers wanted to see a proper ending, and plus, big budget space fantasy is still a novelty to the public.

With the prequels, it made sense to tell the story of Darth Vader when he was a Jedi, and his rise and fall. But Lucas pulled the same cheap tactics, to guarantee audiences would watch three MORE films.

-1st film about Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and instead it stars some dude named Qui-Gon Jinn and his comedic sidekick Jar Jar Binks. Lucas Film gets your money, and they didn’t even deliver what you wanted.
Suckers!

-2nd film promoted as the film where Anakin turns to the dark side.
People think we’ll get to see Anakin hunt down and kill the Jedi.
NOPE! And we STILL don’t get to see Anakin as a Jedi.
Suckers!
But Star Wars as a franchise is shown to be vulnerable, when Spider-man and Lord of the Rings are shown to be the true champions of the summer box office. We see Star Wars is not invincible, it can bleed. It’s not a machine.

-3rd film promoted as darker, and hey, Spielberg directed a scene!
Okay, thinks audiences, yeah the last two sucked. All the stuff that we heard about in the OT about Anakin/Vader didn’t come to pass, but it has to happen in this one. It’s the last film, right?
Three films later we get to FINALLY see Anakin as a Jedi. But that stuff about hunting down and killing the Jedi? Nope! Only an implied massacre at the Jedi pre-school.

By this time, big budget, fantasy epics are the norm, whether it be in video games, or in film. Star Wars is a drop in the bucket in that respect.
For TFA, Disney needs another novelty, and that’s bringing back the original cast, Hamill, Fisher, and Ford.
But the first film doesn’t even do that. Han and Leia are together for like a minute, Han is killed, and we see Luke’s face at the end for 10 seconds.

TLJ is coming out. We’ll get to see Luke in this one though. And misinformation about “The Knights of Ren” showing up and battling Luke and Rey is put out there, just to create more hype. Do we get any of that?
Nope! They’re saving that for the 3rd one. And once again, recycled elements from the OT.

So yeah, it’s no wonder that Star Wars is losing some of its luster.

Shopping Maul said:

Voss Caltrez said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Voss Caltrez said:

Luke using the dark side to choke out the guards at Jabba’s palace.

Actually, this is one of the tidbits of ROTJ I do still like. It’s morally gray stuff like that the film needed much more of.

But who is Darth Henrietta? The Emperor?

Yeah. With the makeup, cackling, and aerodynamics, ROTS Palpatine brings to mind Henrietta from Evil Dead II.

Supposedly, it was done to make audiences unsure of whether or not Luke would become like his father, or stay on the good side. If that’s the reason, that’s cool.
But still, I thought that once you start down the path of the dark side, forever it will consumes you.
If he’s using the dark side of the Force, he must have been practicing it to some degree. And it’s like, why would he do that? How can you pick and choose when you’re going to use the dark side, and still not become evil?
And I thought the Force was only for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

I never saw Evil Dead II. I wonder if The Emperor would have been better if the actor had gone with the initial advice of doing the same type of voice from ESB?

Here’s what I don’t get - killing Palpatine because he is in the throes of annihilating entire shipfuls of sentient beings with a super-laser is ‘the Dark Side’. Killing Palpatine because he’s zapping your son with Force-lightning is ‘the Good Side’.

Sounds like BS to me…

It’s been awhile since I’ve watched ROTJ, but yeah, even then I remember Luke’s decision real questionable.
He won’t fight his father, okay.
The Emperor?
He won’t fight him either. He even throws his ligth saber to the ground, to show he’s about non-violence.
So…what was his plan? Convince Vader to be good again. Maybe that might work since he’s is father.
But what about the Emperor? How was he going to defeat him? With a well-reasoned argument?
If Luke was all Ghandi-like, where was that vow of non-violence on Jabba’s barge?

DuracellEnergizer said:

Voss Caltrez said:

Luke using the dark side to choke out the guards at Jabba’s palace.

Actually, this is one of the tidbits of ROTJ I do still like. It’s morally gray stuff like that the film needed much more of.

But who is Darth Henrietta? The Emperor?

Yeah. With the makeup, cackling, and aerodynamics, ROTS Palpatine brings to mind Henrietta from Evil Dead II.

Supposedly, it was done to make audiences unsure of whether or not Luke would become like his father, or stay on the good side. If that’s the reason, that’s cool.
But still, I thought that once you start down the path of the dark side, forever it will consumes you.
If he’s using the dark side of the Force, he must have been practicing it to some degree. And it’s like, why would he do that? How can you pick and choose when you’re going to use the dark side, and still not become evil?
And I thought the Force was only for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

I never saw Evil Dead II. I wonder if The Emperor would have been better if the actor had gone with the initial advice of doing the same type of voice from ESB?

DuracellEnergizer said:

LordZerome1080 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

LordZerome1080 said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I thoroughly hate Darth Göring and Emperor Skeletor, so I won’t mention them.

Tell me how you really feel.

I really, really wanna fuck Daisy Ridley.

Why such hate for my boys Vader and Sidious?

I draw a distinction between Darth Vader (the main villain of SW '77 & TESB) & Darth Göring (the milksop of ROTJ & the PT who gets to go to Jedi Heaven after a lifetime of mass murder just 'cause he loved his son really, really hard).

And I hate Darth Henrietta for being a dimensionless Saturday morning cartoon supervillain.

I agree.
I didn’t mind the ending for ROTJ at the time, but now that I watch the film it’s like, wait, Darth Vader helped destroy an entire planet full of people.
There’s no turning back from that.
I love Return of the Jedi as it’s the first Star Wars film I saw as a kid, but man, is it flawed.

Luke using the dark side to choke out the guards at Jabba’s palace. Luke and Leia being bro and sis. Vader becoming good again, just because he didn’t let the Emperor kill his son. Obi-wan justifying lying by saying, “it’s true…from a certain point of view.” That was all some BS.

Some tweaks could have fixed some of those parts.
Luke simply waving his hand at the guards and they lower their weapons and allow his passge.
Obi-wan just saying Luke wasn’t ready for the truth, and leave it at that.
The funeral pyre for Vader, along with the score, is just enough. No need to have Force ghost Yoda and Obi-wan AND Anakin appear.

But who is Darth Henrietta? The Emperor?