Darth Vader is not a good villain. The closest he came to becoming one was in TESB. But ROTJ and the PT showed that at heart, he’s just a capricious, selfish punk.
This is a truly awful opinion
Something I’ve been thinking about (and this is perhaps American centric) in regards to the current approach is how much better all of this would have played in a different time. As we further burn through the backlog of Chapek’s tenure over-investing in D+ (yes, there’s context) - it’s clear all of these new shows have been targeting different audiences, and that the streaming landscape where every studio is their own distributor has done zero favors to that end. Handicapped it, even.
Back in the day, all of this would be optioned out / syndicated to different networks!
Mandalorian-verse to primetime (ABC/Fox/etc)
Bad Batch + animateds (maybe even Ahsoka) to Cartoon Network
Andor to whichever premium cable channel
The Acolyte to Freeform, The CW or MTV
Skeleton Crew to ABC Family
Obi-Wan as Direct-to-Video miniseries/movie
etc, etc.It used to be such an important part of a media’s identity, where it played, who it was for. It was “easier” for many to skip The Clone Wars because being on Cartoon Network implied certain things about its prescribed audience. The Star Wars movies were being marathoned elsewhere after all, on TNT or the USA Network.
The shows wouldn’t be better (maybe they would, w/ network guidelines) but as “consumers”, our choices would inherently be better informed.
What the Disney+ of it all does is put all the shows on the same expectation for a broad subscriber base - the same audiences - even if that’s not what they’re trying to do. Even to unsubscribed spectators looking from afar, in other countries even, it all becomes a series working through the “latest installments”, not a franchise with diversified demographic objectives. We have to figure out this stuff by waiting for a thing to come out, a waste of everyone’s time.
To say less of the “Disney” branding itself being inescapable and inflexible. It has completely painted the way y’all have engaged with the work of like five different creative teams. My frustration with that aside, I can’t even really blame those fans for it. Streaming and the growing monopolies in media have just been doubling down into being their own distributors, becoming “brand families”, etc. - the ways of figuring out profit/strategy for this stuff is stuck between antiquity and new media.
At the same time, this stuff wouldn’t even exist without streaming economics being fucked up. Luckily, hopefully, like I alluded to before, it really is a case of us reacting to a backlog. Shows take a while to produce, we’re just catching up to what’s probably been figured out over a year ago. That isn’t optimism about corporate good sense mind you, it’s just that literally, we’ve been seeing the illusion of the streaming model tangibly break down all across the industry the past few years. I think if we’re talking about what’s coming next, some of what has been expressed in this thread is coming. The slow downs, the return to films, etc. Whether or not that era will be any good is another question.
I see what you’re saying and there probably would be less backlash, but I think the shows probably would be a lot better as well. There would be greater independence and the networks would focus more on trying to get ratings and repeat viewers every week, rather than a sort of abstract thing where they make the equivalent of TV movies to increase the relative prestige and value of a subscription. The networks themselves would all front the costs of the shows and do more with less, rather than Disney’s own shows all competing with each other for budget and sometimes pointlessly ballooning into millions and millions of dollars.
I enjoy it so far but I don’t think the Death Star should be involved.
It’s space fantasy, science fantasy, space opera, or soft sci fi, take your pick. It changes some rules about how the world works while retaining others, and it tends to get worse when its own rules get violated. For example, there is FTL travel and spacecraft everywhere, but there is absolutely no teleportation. The Force is mystical and magical and based on belief, but it still requires training to use. You can move things with telekinesis, but you and any objects you move are still physically present and obey the laws of physics when they’re dropped or thrown. Space has sound, things blow up, and ships tend to behave like planes or naval ships, but when there’s a hole in a ship, it’s still exposed to vacuum and everything gets sucked out.
Both “normal” fantasy and science fiction work the same way. You let the audience suspend disbelief by establishing something and then holding to it. It’s fine acknowledging the surreal, visionary elements of Star Wars (parts I think people forget the most when it comes to Return of the Jedi), but that doesn’t mean anyone is doing anything wrong by detailing the rules that it does have.
This is also why, for example, people tend to not like things like people getting stabbed with lightsabers and not dying. Or they’re okay with explosions and sound in space, but not lingering normal fires blowing in the “wind.” Or some of the more cartoonish sequences in Attack of the Clones.
Great write-up Acbagel!
Unfortunately I don’t think simply making “a little something for everyone” (i.e. different things for different people) is enough to unite the fandom, as each group generally seems to think Star Wars should only be made for their tastes specifically (even if not everyone admits it). Doesn’t help also that a ton of YouTubers nowadays make an entire living from hating Star Wars, no matter what it does.
Of all the groups you mentioned, I’m in the one that you described as “not very protective, fine with whatever direction Disney takes.” I honestly think at this point they should just keep doing whatever they’re doing, cause people will get mad no matter what. There was a time when even ESB was divisive, ffs!
Yeah I agree with this also. But Lucasfilm/Disney also need to have the balls to stick with projects or story direction. Don’t crib notes from fans. Sure learn from mistakes but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.It’s the same now with the Acolyte. It was a bit hit/miss but there’s more story to be told. Learn the right lessons. Fix the main issues. Whether it’s pacing, character development, production quality, whatever. But back in your story. At the end of the day we just want good, well told stories that we can reflect on with satisfaction.
It was way more than “a bit” hit or miss, and the story literally can’t go anywhere because it will always result in the prequels happening. All it does is bash on the Jedi more in dumber and dumber ways.
They are cribbing notes from fans, the large group of prequel/Filoni fans who like anything that has prequel/Clone Wars/Rebels characters in it.
I think you’re forgetting that tons of people love the prequels and would love to see a well-told story of how the Jedi got to the point that they’re at during them. Just because some people don’t like them or how the Jedi are portrayed during the prequels doesn’t change that. There’s a whole lot of good storyline potential to exploring that shift regardless of whether or not some people want Star Wars to tackle that or not. What Disney Star Wars needs to do is appeal to fans of all 3 trilogies, but they really seem to only be catering to Prequel fans which is the main issue. Other than Andor there’s no Star Wars project attempting to appeal to fans of the original trilogy, and there are also no projects currently out trying to appeal to fans of the sequel trilogy. The only thing even attempting to target those fans is the currently in production Rey movie. They need to appeal to fans of all 3 and to do that they need to greenlight projects targeting each of these 3 eras.
I didn’t forget, that’s why I said the large group. I said they are writing to appeal to that group (“cribbing notes” as the other person said.) I understand that those people are much more plentiful than people like me.
They don’t need to appeal to any particular group at all, especially not alleged sequel trilogy fans. Everything they do is already a mishmash of stormtroopers and TIE fighters with some prequel/clone stuff mixed in.
Great write-up Acbagel!
Unfortunately I don’t think simply making “a little something for everyone” (i.e. different things for different people) is enough to unite the fandom, as each group generally seems to think Star Wars should only be made for their tastes specifically (even if not everyone admits it). Doesn’t help also that a ton of YouTubers nowadays make an entire living from hating Star Wars, no matter what it does.
Of all the groups you mentioned, I’m in the one that you described as “not very protective, fine with whatever direction Disney takes.” I honestly think at this point they should just keep doing whatever they’re doing, cause people will get mad no matter what. There was a time when even ESB was divisive, ffs!
Yeah I agree with this also. But Lucasfilm/Disney also need to have the balls to stick with projects or story direction. Don’t crib notes from fans. Sure learn from mistakes but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Key example: Solo.
The movie was perfectly fine. Did it set the world on fire? No. Were there other key issues that also effected it’s performance? Absolutely. But don’t set up an ongoing story and then abandon it because “shit happens”. Learn the right lessons and fix the errors. Make the next one a banger. Ensure the next in the Solo series is unmissable.It’s the same now with the Acolyte. It was a bit hit/miss but there’s more story to be told. Learn the right lessons. Fix the main issues. Whether it’s pacing, character development, production quality, whatever. But back in your story. At the end of the day we just want good, well told stories that we can reflect on with satisfaction.
It was way more than “a bit” hit or miss, and the story literally can’t go anywhere because it will always result in the prequels happening. All it does is bash on the Jedi more in dumber and dumber ways.
They are cribbing notes from fans, the large group of prequel/Filoni fans who like anything that has prequel/Clone Wars/Rebels characters in it.
I get the sense that a lot of the writing flaws in these Disney+ Star Wars shows ultimately originate from top-down mandates to expand a 1.5 hour movie pitch into an 8 episode streaming series. At least, that explains why shows like the Kenobi and Boba Fett show are filled with narrative dead-ends, weird decision making, and characters spontaneously changing their minds as needed. But somehow these same writing problems also plagued Mando Season 3 and the Acolyte, which as far as I know were never originally pitched as a movie. So I have no idea what’s happening. I can’t even blame Filoni anymore because non-Filoni shows exhibit Filoni-esque symptoms in the writing. All I know is that good writers seem to be in very short supply, or something about the creative process at Lucasfilm is fundamentally broken. Basically just let Tony Gilroy do everything from now on and we should be okay.
RedLetterMedia recently suggested that a show like the Acolyte - or any High Republic show centering on the Jedi - could be formatted as a Star Trek style episodic show about a team of Jedi, or maybe just a master/apprentice duo, who travel around the Galaxy dispensing peace and justice, with plots based around localized, “problem of the week” style stories and ethical dilemmas, just like old school Star Trek. I realize Star Wars isn’t Star Trek, but the premise of the High Republic could really fit nicely with an episodic style. When I first read about the premise of the High Republic book series, way before the Acolyte aired, one of my first thoughts was “this sounds a lot like Star Trek”. Arguably, the old KOTOR games are somewhat made in this mold as well. You could also do this Andor style, with multiple 2 or 3 episode arcs centering on different independent story lines.
That is a good idea but episodic stories like that are much less popular than serialized stuff now. It’s very close to the Jedi Apprentice series of books, which are about Qui Gon and Obi Wan having episodic Jedi adventures on different planets with different dilemmas. They’re kids’ books and I read them as a kid, but it could easily be done with an adult show, or just more adult books.
But I’d argue that the episodic nature of Mando S1 & S2 and to a lesser degree, Clone Wars and Andor are part of what makes them so successful.
Of course, I just mean the preferences of TV watchers and people that make TV in general.
Anakin before joining the Jedi: essentially Luke in SW.
Anakin after joining the Jedi: Luke from SW & TESB with Han’s cockiness and charisma.
Anakin after joining the Sith, but before going full dark side: more reserved like Vader in TESB & ROTJ, minus the sheer ruthlessness.
Something like this.
The concept of existing prequel Anakin isn’t that bad, the problem is in the execution. If he were just self-confident and gung ho and wanted to do his own thing, that would be cool. The problem is that’s buried underneath the bizarre decision to make him a leering weirdo mass murderer before we even get the chance to get attached to him.
I get the sense that a lot of the writing flaws in these Disney+ Star Wars shows ultimately originate from top-down mandates to expand a 1.5 hour movie pitch into an 8 episode streaming series. At least, that explains why shows like the Kenobi and Boba Fett show are filled with narrative dead-ends, weird decision making, and characters spontaneously changing their minds as needed. But somehow these same writing problems also plagued Mando Season 3 and the Acolyte, which as far as I know were never originally pitched as a movie. So I have no idea what’s happening. I can’t even blame Filoni anymore because non-Filoni shows exhibit Filoni-esque symptoms in the writing. All I know is that good writers seem to be in very short supply, or something about the creative process at Lucasfilm is fundamentally broken. Basically just let Tony Gilroy do everything from now on and we should be okay.
RedLetterMedia recently suggested that a show like the Acolyte - or any High Republic show centering on the Jedi - could be formatted as a Star Trek style episodic show about a team of Jedi, or maybe just a master/apprentice duo, who travel around the Galaxy dispensing peace and justice, with plots based around localized, “problem of the week” style stories and ethical dilemmas, just like old school Star Trek. I realize Star Wars isn’t Star Trek, but the premise of the High Republic could really fit nicely with an episodic style. When I first read about the premise of the High Republic book series, way before the Acolyte aired, one of my first thoughts was “this sounds a lot like Star Trek”. Arguably, the old KOTOR games are somewhat made in this mold as well. You could also do this Andor style, with multiple 2 or 3 episode arcs centering on different independent story lines.
That is a good idea but episodic stories like that are much less popular than serialized stuff now. It’s very close to the Jedi Apprentice series of books, which are about Qui Gon and Obi Wan having episodic Jedi adventures on different planets with different dilemmas. They’re kids’ books and I read them as a kid, but it could easily be done with an adult show, or just more adult books.
- The Culmination of the Jedi Cover-up - This whole show has painted Vernestra as some sort of independent agent with the Order, able to unilaterally make decisions and act without any oversight. Her entire role here continually prompted my brain to ask “How is she allowed to do this?” and “Why is no one else getting involved?” The way this played out with her ability to constantly put together “secret” teams of 6-12-man Jedi squads and deploy them across the galaxy without Council oversight significantly undermined the established hierarchy of the Jedi Order. Then the episode’s conclusion, Vern convenes a meeting with the Supreme Chancellor and several Senate members, during which she fabricates a story implicating Sol. The blatant lie is presented without any pushback or skepticism from other knowledgeable Jedi or senate members, even though it’s been presented as if this knowledge is not at all secretive. Many seem to have an understanding of what happened, yet this beyond-out-of-the-blue explanation goes through this committee without challenge, and also somehow through Yoda. The episode further suggests that many Jedi are either complicit in or oblivious to this deception. This scenario assumes a level of collective ignorance or compliance that is difficult to reconcile with the established character and vigilance of the Jedi Order in this time period. The notion that the Council would not make it the #1 priority to investigate and verify the causes of the deaths of about a dozen Jedi, especially when linked to such a significant cover-up, strained all plausibility. Given the interconnected nature of the Jedi community, it is just inconceivable that such significant events would go unnoticed or unexamined. The deaths of multiple Jedi would inevitably become a major topic of concern for hundreds if not thousands of Jedi who interacted with so many of these fallen brothers and sisters, especially since we’re talking about murders of both Masters and Younglings… This episode outright asks us viewers to accept the reality that no other Jedi, many of whom would logically be aware of at least some of the true events, would speak out against Vern’s falsehoods. Sol is supposedly the killer, and when it is talked about, you’re telling me no one would be like, “Hey, uh… wasn’t Sol actually here on Coruscant in this very temple when Indara was killed a few days ago…?” “Hasn’t he been training the Younglings right here in this room?” “Yeah, he was showing me how to meditate at noon 3 days ago during the murder! Someone go check the schedule and the cameras!” Not to mention, didn’t we have multiple witnesses that IDed Mae, who is also now in custody at the temple? How does the Council not seem to care about any of this mountain of evidence? How are Jedi being killed en masse and they’re turning a blind eye to all of it? How does Grandmaster Yoda not sense any of this and deploy the most prominent Jedi Masters to investigate? He sensed Anakin killing Tusken Raiders across the galaxy, yet he can’t sense the massive conspiracy of murders happening right under his nose? This is not even a time when the Dark Side is “clouding” the vision of the Jedi. Sidious was responsible for that and Yoda is seeing these visions through that cloud, THAT’S what we’re supposed to see as Yoda struggling, but here he looks like a complete chump having no control over the Order. I don’t even understand what Vern feels like she needs to cover up? Is she hiding ALL of the truth simply because she still cares about… Qimir? Her former apprentice, apparently, as that was suddenly revealed (but extremely obvious, like every other “reveal” in this show). I genuinely don’t understand what is wrong with the truth here. Implicating Sol as a fallen Jedi seems WAY worse than just about any other explanation. Here is a short list of everyone who can easily give first-hand eyewitness accounts that directly contradict this lie:
Tasi Lowa, Yord’s Apprentice who was investigating Indara’s killer in episode 1. She investigated the initial murder scene and interviewed eyewitnesses of Mae’s attack on Indara. Every single piece of evidence pointed to Osha/Mae, nothing could’ve possibly indicated Sol. Can you imagine how bewildered she would be to hear this news? Surely she’d think something was amuck?
The bar owner from episode 1 who positively ID’ed one of the twins and dozens of other bar patrons who saw Mae walk up to Indara and threaten her in a combat stance.
The entire outpost of Jedi on Olega who are WITH Sol the entire time when Torbin is discovered to be dead.
Eyewitnesses on Olega like the young girl who was bribed to let Mae into the Jedi outpost.
Ki-Adi-Mundi and everyone in the room during that scene who watches footage of Mae ATTACKING Sol. Did Vern delete this footage…? Even assuming so, isn’t that MORE suspicious since multiple Jedi would testify to the exact same thing? Sol was not using a single act of aggression against Mae. CLEARLY, she was the aggressor trying to kill him. Like what possible explanation is there to point to Sol as a deranged fallen murderer according to the dozens to hundreds of pieces of evidence from Olega? And if the cover-up is that Sol used Mae to murder the Jedi, that’s even more unbelievable because everyone in this show has commented about how she’s not that strong and looks slow, she’s way outclassed by Sol without a weapon on camera, yet we’re supposed to believe she has murdered 3-4 masters and an entire squad of elite Knights in lightsaber combat. No.
Bazil. He is friendly with the Jedi and saw EVERYTHING. There is no way he’d defend Vern here.
Everyone on the Brendok Jedi team that saw how Sol didn’t have any self-inflicted wounds, and then suddenly Sol’s body is gone and didn’t return to Coruscant so they’re unable to perform an autopsy. Did this group of 11 other Jedi not discuss amongst themselves like “Hey, did you move Sol’s body?” “No… Did you?” “No…” everyone glares suspiciously at Vernestra
Any Jedi who arrested and processed Mae. Since apparently, they believed she murdered Sol, they told her as much, and then Vernestra waited until she was on Coruscant to make up this lie.
Every Jedi in the Temple who can confirm Sol’s whereabouts at the time of all these murders. Folks, this is not like Sol is within a 30-minute drive and could sneak out, kill a master, and make it back to Youngling Class in time (though this show does indicate starships can enter orbit and teleport across the galaxy in mere seconds). The accusation is that he was stealing starships, or has some unregistered personal starship, flying across the galaxy, killing Indara, sneaking around Olega and being involved in tons of other events and killing Torbin, sneaking to Khofar and killing half a dozen Jedi and Kelnacca, then flying to Brendock to kill himself. Sol. SOL. The softest, sweetest teacher… COME ON.
Of course, Vern knows the actual killers of Osha/Qimir could easily present evidence and wreck her entire scheme if desired. And we’re supposed to believe Yoda looks at all of this, gives Vern a thumbs up, and moves on.
Any way that I try to understand this cover-up, I cannot begin to fathom how it’s believed by even a single member of the Council, let alone the entire Order and Senate. Sorry, but you are required to suspend reality and sensible writing in order to accept this cover-up plot device. It makes absolutely no sense in-universe. It’s a good idea for a story on paper, but the idea itself was not fleshed out in any sensible way.
- Sol’s Guilt - Poor Sol. Read my earlier reviews and you’ll see that he was a character I actually liked for much of this show until they turned him into an absolute idiot here in the end. He confesses to Osha that he murdered her mother without trying to explain why he did what he did. I thought he had indisputable probable cause so this entire arc has never resonated with me. Mother Aniseya, a dark side using witch, was turning into a demon-looking monster with sharp teeth, dissolving a child who he thought was Osha (who wanted to be freed from this world), there was mention of the fire, and thus Sol was trying to protect Osha, as well as himself and Torbin who had been previously violently attacked. So let’s say even if Sol would 99% be justified for his actions in a court of law, even in a Senate tribunal outside the Jedi Council, let’s just say he still carries some guilt from that night because, yeah, I guess it would be traumatic (though the events here do not seem that much greater than any ordinary Jedi mission where death occurs. These guys train their entire lives for situations exactly like this and have presumably seen worse already as a Jedi Master). So he has been wanting to tell Osha the truth and he’s been wanting to explain himself to Mae for 16 years. So here he finally gets the chance to talk to his beloved Osha, the closest thing he will ever have to a daughter, and out of nowhere she just murders him by force choke without even wanting any kind of explanation about why he confessed to killing her mother. The man she has looked up to as a father figure for years upon years for most of her life. And Sol, being an idiot, lets her kill him, lets her fall to the dark side, and ruin the rest of her life by walking away with a child-killer. Even if you want to say it’s “loving” in some twisted way for Sol to just let Osha “be herself” or something, Sol watched Qimir butcher a squad of Jedi like a day or two ago. He watched him gut Jecki, a child. Does he not care enough for Osha to stop her from being seduced to the dark side by a deranged mass murderer? I get that Leslye wanted to tell his story to show “flaws” in the Jedi or something like that (and see the KOTOR comic line if you want an actually fantastic deployment of such an idea), but like above, the idea looks like an idea on paper and not one that makes sense as a sequence of events in a very interconnected plot. Sol’s entire character arc was a massive letdown
I’m sure you know this already but the answer you’re going to get will always be
*The prequel Jedi (possibly all Jedi) are bad and were always corrupt and the real villains
OR the lite version, *The Jedi were “flawed” so it makes sense that they’re “flawed”
*“Watch the prequels” “Watch The Clone Wars” “Watch Tales of the Jedi”
I really don’t want to get into politics here but Osha and Mae’s mom basically unalived herself by cop. You’re supposed to think Sol is in the wrong because she was “unarmed”. He’s like a cop thinking someone has a gun when they reach into a glove compartment and really they have a hairbrush or something, and shooting first and asking questions later. Like you said that’s not the situation at all because they were already attacking the Jedi and she was literally transforming into a shadow demon and starting to evaporate a child, but I’m pretty sure that’s the idea and it worked on much of the target audience for the show.
Yeah, why was the gopher man sabotaging the ship? They didn’t make any sense to me at all.
I don’t know, but I read it as Basil being symbolically the good little angel of the show, the only person thinking straight. He knew Mae was up to no good and was the only one able to detect her, but also we saw both in episode 6 him being like uh oh what is Sol doing when he turned off the transceiver, and in the finale as well when he appeared to be targeting Mae’s escape ship. Sol’s acting irrationally as we see from all his other actions, whatever he was doing wasn’t going to work out well and Basil could smell it…
Easily the most intuitive explanation. Interesting what the creator will say if she’s asked about it though. Her interviews she’s been doing every week have been incredibly interesting reads every time. Leslye Headland is a true sw geek and she shares quite liberally about the artistic decisions behind the show, I highly recommend reading some of those for anybody curious about any decision in the show.
Right, he’s supposed to let the audience know who is supposed to be sympathetic or unsympathetic in case they didn’t get it. (They won’t get it because nothing makes any sense.)
If I could do what I wanted:
*Star Wars is Lucasfilm again and severed completely from Disney, and I have total control of Lucasfilm.
*Cancel everything except Andor season 2 and any Timothy Zahn books still in the works.
*Rerelease original trilogy with no special edition changes.
*Make a hard pause on all Star Wars media for 10+ years except for video games, provided the games are given to non-EA studios and the model is closer to how Games Workshop is licensing Warhammer.
*Bring back the specific developers who worked at Obsidian at the time of KOTOR 2 (not modern Obsidian) to make the actual KOTOR 3.
*Abandon the canon concept and encourage everyone to pick and choose whatever they want to be true. If and when the pause ends, Disney/Filoni canon will be reimagined as its own crazy world where any bonkers thing can happen. Basically the tone and pace of Rise of Skywalker but with everything. Time travel, everyone is a clone, the world is a board game, the republic is evil, whatever. Borderline self-parody, who cares.
If I wanted to make people happy and make money and had to work within the constraints of the existing company:
*Give the movies and TV shows a pause of at least a few years to let people catch their breath.
*Invest in some animated series that aren’t Filoni projects, including at least one with the original trilogy cast and not a buzzing swarm of Filoni OCs surrounding them.
*Stick with the feel of the Mandalorian before season 3, where it was unclear whether the sequels were going to be acknowledged or not. Don’t acknowledge or tie them in anymore. If you choose to believe they happened after Mandalorian and similar shows, that’s up to you. Leave it open.
*Make an alternate universe movie with Ewan, Hayden, and the rest of the prequel cast where Anakin makes the right decisions and Palpatine is defeated (maybe not killed) and they go on one last adventure together. Develop the alternate universe as its own canon that can go in new directions.
*Allow writers and creators to work within the Legends timeline, the Disney timeline, or the new alternate universe if they so choose.
*Focus a lot more on producing video games of all kinds. Maybe some free to play piles to rake in the money, then also a lot of single player and multiplayer games of various sizes, prices, and genres.
The colors don’t mean anything and never have, except with the KOTOR classes as Mocata said. The Mace Windu purple/dark/light/gray/purple/blue/red/vaapad/halfgood/halfevil/light/dark complex was always an annoying “fan theory” and the only reason his was purple was Sam Jackson thought it would be cool.
This entire site exists because of complaining and hating on the Lucas special editions and the prequels and trying to fix them. If you put up all the same stuff everyone here said like 10 or 15 years ago and added some clickbait headlines and thumbnails you people would call them Hateful Toxic YouTube Grifters.
That’s a really complicated question. How much of it is stuff that I want, how much of it is what I think other people want, how much of it is what I think would make money, and how much of it is something that the company would actually do? Some of that overlaps but not very much, especially the last part.
Is it unpopular to pretty much hate everything that happened after Vision of the Future. I like Luke and Mara settling down together maybe they have one or more children based on Vision of the Future, I even like Ben. But all the grimdark stuff from the Vong, to killing Anakin Solo, making Jacen Hayden Skywalker and killing him, and killing Mara I despise.
I think that, even though you dislike the New Jedi Order series and the Vong War, you might still like the Young Jedi Knights series. It’s the series that immediately proceeds the NJO, and tells the adventures of young Jacen and Jaina when they were still young teenagers, before the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the Galaxy. There is no foreshadowing of the future Vong War, since the series was written before the NJO, the Force powers are not over the top, and Luke is portrayed as a wise Jedi master. I think that it might be a nice epilogue if you don’t want to accept the NJO.
Shit, you think people are going to take your posts or advice on here seriously after you telling a black member on here that:
Yeah, the italics in the “you” of the “you are the problem here” really adds the icing on top of your racist cake. And that a black man highlighting inequality in films is “a stupid criticism”.
When Caston then asked you in PMs if you already knew Keyan was black, and all Keyan had done is highlight some scenes that could have easily featured some non-white males, included women, or re-dressed aliens, instead being predominantly white men, in response to George’s recent statement and claims which George himself brought up at Cannes, you then replied:
“The fact that a person is black doesn’t mean he can’t be criticized, just as it doesn’t mean he can’t make the mistake of focussing excessively on the ethnicity of the characters.”
You then tried to deflect away from the focus of your statement accusing Keyan of “being the problem here”, by slating members on here and the site itself, by posting:“I don’t have a problem with anyone, but I feel you’re all nitpicking just for the sake of finding something to criticize about Lucas. And look, I’m not one of those people who think Lucas never made mistakes, or is a flawed genius, but members of this forum tend to criticize him for everything, even the most insignificant and irrelevant things. If you guys don’t like the Prequels and the Special Editions, that’s fine. But there is no need to bash Lucas for everything he says and does, because it simply makes you unsure of your own opinions. We are in 2024, the Prequels and the Special Editions are past history, just get over the fact that Lucas made something you don’t like and move on.”
Well, good luck with that. I’ll be scrolling right past all your posts from now on. I guess others may be too. Each to their own.
Dude what is your problem lol
Why do you need to white knight and try to cancel someone on a forum of like 15 people over a mild disagreement? Just pathetic.
I’ve seen lots of people online complaining about the supernatural conception of Mae/Osha via the Force, because they feel it detracts from the uniqueness of Anakin’s story.
I guess this is another symptom of the widespread “reevaluation” of the Prequels online over the past 10 years. But from my perspective, the whole virgin birth and “Chosen One” aspect of Anakin’s story was a completely stupid idea in the first place, so I really don’t care if some later story messes with it. Maybe the Acolyte writers will actually do something interesting with the concept, but I doubt it. The whole concept is just dumb.
Okay but then the show shouldn’t use its relationship to the prequels as a selling point. If you’re going to ignore the prequels, then ignore them. Don’t throw in Neimoidians and Ki Adi Mundi and prequel Jedi and all that stuff. I’m all for the prequels getting overwritten in a hypothetical alternate continuity but this isn’t that, it’s doubling down on the prequels and somehow managing to (intentionally or unintentionally) make it worse and more self-contradictory.
I haven’t watched any of this show, and I probably never will (I’ve kind of stopped giving a shit about “new Star Wars” in general), but I think I can say this with confidence: those audience reviews are bullshit. The review bombing is comically obvious. Like, maybe the show has problems, I wouldn’t know, but “30% on Rotten Tomatoes” level of problems? “4.8 on IMDB” level of problems? It really feels like people just want to hate it, for two main reasons:
- “They put a WOMAN… in STAR WARS?! And she’s… BLACK?! WOKE!!! WOKE!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOKE!!!”
- “It’s by DISNEY… and it’s NOT Andor?! It MUST be bad! REVIEW BOMB!!! REVIEW BOOOOOOOOMB!!!”
Like, if these reviews were at all legitimate, wouldn’t Book of Boba (which is probably way worse) get the same level of vitriol? What about Kenobi, which might be one of the worst pieces of live action Star Wars media ever? But of course, Boba and Obi-Wan are male and (mostly) white, and this was before the whole “Andor is the only good Disney Star War” narrative started, so The Acolyte is the one getting turned into some sort of nerd pariah instead. Like I said, it’s bullshit.
Boba is not white, he’s polynesian. Book of Boba Fett and Obi-Wan (and Ahsoka) were absolutely despised by the same people so you must not have been paying attention. That’s actually probably why this one is already pre-hated, it’s coming off the heels of those other ones.
The reason people highlight Andor is that it was a really well done story, which is unusual compared to the rest. Lots of people also like Rogue One and the Mandalorian seasons 1 and 2. It would be nice if this was another Andor but we should remember that Andor got there on its own merits; most people had zero interest in it due to Disney’s prior reputation, and it became more popular by word of mouth.
The “women/black in Star Wars” thing is such garbage. No one thinks that. Some of the most popular characters in Star Wars are female characters, going all the way back to Leia. Lando and Mace Windu were always popular. Andor is full of diversity as well. The thing is, it’s obvious when it’s part of a DEI initiative or it’s tokenism for its own sake. It’s an aesthetic, you can just tell. The casting decisions don’t line up. For example, Riva in the Obi-Wan show. Awful character, and miscast. Even if she was written better and given less goofy actions and choreography, the actress just doesn’t pull off the intimidation she’s supposed to have. Her presence detracts from Obi-Wan being the main character in his own show. But outside the show in real life, all they can talk about is how badass and empowered she is. Telling, not showing. It’s not a massive stretch to say that diversity requirements were at least partly responsible, call that “woke” or whatever you want.
Watched the premiere last night, I think I called it pretty well to my expectations. The set design, color palettes, and feel of the worlds exceeded what I saw in marketing, I was pleasantly surprised with the environments, VFX, and characters for the most part, but there are indeed some glaring issues holding it back from being great. I think it will end up being a fine show, but unfortunately, Star Wars does not need fine. In fact, I would say fine hurts Star Wars at this point. They need big wins to restore some brand image. Is it fair to place that much pressure on The Acolyte? Probably not, but it’s reality, something has to come out to unify the fanbase if we want to see Star Wars stay at the forefront of the mainstream.
Why do we want that?
I made a number of different points here, so I’m not sure which one you’re asking about. Assuming the final sentence about Star Wars being at the forefront of culture, I think when it does that it’s proof of its outstanding and well-liked content. Star Wars has gone through many different periods of being a cultural phenomenon and it’s always produced great content in those eras. As a big fan, I want that to return because it means good shows/movies/games/stories and increases the probability of getting new and better content in the future.
The audience reviews for the Acolyte are very low so far. I disagree with a lot of what’s being said against the show, but overwhelmingly negative waves of reviews aren’t good no matter which way you frame it. That doesn’t bode well for investors pulling the trigger on future High Republic era shows or an Acolyte Season 2. Even if the criticisms aren’t fair and aren’t a direct critique of the Acolyte itself, but are instead a general protest against Disney, the money movers don’t make that distinction. They see: “Acolyte got bad reviews and had bad word of mouth online, it didn’t make enough money, scrap related future projects” compared to “Acolyte got great reviews, positive reception on social media, got us x # of new Disney+ subscribers, give us a season 2”.
I want Star Wars to be good/stay good. I think the Acolyte premiere was good, but a lot of people don’t (again, much of that is for alternative reasons, but money talks). I’d personally like Disney to focus on projects that have a higher chance of unifying the fanbase and possibly bringing Star Wars excitement into the mainstream of culture once again. I think the Acolyte is intriguing, but it’s not the project that will do that. Skeleton Crew is not going to do that. The Rey movie isn’t going to do that. Even Andor brings in only a segment of fans and won’t do that. I think a very faithful Old Republic adaptation story would (original Tales of the Jedi/KOTOR comic series), a post-RotJ Legends Luke animated show would, live-action Clone Wars movie with Hayden/Ewan/Ariana would, Darth Bane trilogy novel to film adaptation etc.
Maybe some people enjoy Star Wars becoming a bit more niche and having a split fanbase? If they do, I wouldn’t hold it against them if they are happy with how things are going and like the majority of content that’s released. But I’d like to see a return to widespread excitement. What project do you think would do that?
I think that reasoning is kind of circular. You’re saying that we should want it to be popular because it’s good, and it’s good mainly when it’s popular. I think it should be good first, and the popularity shouldn’t matter. Popular things tend to get worse over time because the people making it forget their roots, or someone else takes over and doesn’t understand why it was good, or the people coming in are just hopping on a bandwagon and end up demanding unwarranted changes.
In the time between 1983 and sometime in the late 2000s/early 2010s, Star Wars was always sort of “niche” to some extent and almost always had a split fanbase. Most original fans were split on whether or not they liked the EU and whether or not they liked the prequels, and you had many splits in opinion on various EU projects as well. The quality of EU stuff went up and down all the time, but it had very little to do with what average people on the street were thinking about Star Wars. The original trilogy was very well-liked, the prequels were treated as a funny oddity, and maybe your dad or your uncle or one of your coworkers was way into reading all the books and comics, and if you liked video games you had a nearly constant stream of great games coming out. But that was all. It was very decentralized, for lack of a better term.
Disney is putting out the equivalent of EU projects and expecting all or most of them to be blockbuster hits that justify their investment. Putting the quality of most of them aside (medium to awful), they’re inviting direct comparison with the original movies and prequels in a way that none of the EU stuff ever did. They’re making high, high budget movies and TV shows and promoting them out the nose at every level. Of course they’re going to come up short, even if they were competent at it.
When Star Wars was “niche” and divided and there was a book or a comic or a game or an RPG supplement you didn’t like, you just ignored it and moved on, or if it messed with another story you liked, you got mad about it on a message board like this one. Constant big budget movie and TV releases are exhausting and ultimately a more shallow experience, and there’s no reason to want them for their own sake.
If you’re talking about a mainstream view of it then your only points of comparison can be other times in the Disney era (2015 for example) because this is the only era where it has worked like this.
Watched the premiere last night, I think I called it pretty well to my expectations. The set design, color palettes, and feel of the worlds exceeded what I saw in marketing, I was pleasantly surprised with the environments, VFX, and characters for the most part, but there are indeed some glaring issues holding it back from being great. I think it will end up being a fine show, but unfortunately, Star Wars does not need fine. In fact, I would say fine hurts Star Wars at this point. They need big wins to restore some brand image. Is it fair to place that much pressure on The Acolyte? Probably not, but it’s reality, something has to come out to unify the fanbase if we want to see Star Wars stay at the forefront of the mainstream.
Why do we want that?
After being pretty “meh” after seeing the trailers, i was surprised at how much i liked the first 2 episodes. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but to me it actually feels like Star Wars, unlike BOBF, Ahsoka and the latter part of Mando. The acting & dialogue is fine, which the trailers somehow made it seem prequel level bad, but it isn’t. And thank GOD we finally have colour back in Star Wars and not that horrendous desaturated & over dark grading that’s plagued the majority of the TV shows so far. The only thing that feels a bit off to me is the ending of both episodes. They don’t seem like an episode ending. It’s seeming to be aimed at editing into one long movie that has been chopped up into episodes more than an episodic formula.
Sadly, the dark side of the fandom is ripping it apart. The usual " Woke" bullshit comments are everywhere. Slating the show because of its female lead, the fact they mentioned " two mothers" and other crap. If it’s not white male lead they don’t class it as Star Wars. Wankers. I’m so fed up hearing how Star Wars is dead, just because it doesn’t follow their narrow minded bullshit. No one is allowed to just enjoy it any more without all their vitriol. I’ve seen so many commenting on how they refuse to watch it but will review bomb it wherever possible. Then attacking fans who dare to say they like anything “Disney” Star Wars.
This show has started out pretty well. It has my interest. I LOVE the score and i think that’s one of the reasons why it feels more like Star Wars to me. It feels very Willams to me. Although i don’t mind the different style scores in things like the Mandalorian, it seems to take away something for me. The Acolyte is probably the first TV show that i rewatched the first eps in the same day.
It doesn’t help that the creators and actors go out of their way to publicly say that they’re trying to make people mad on purpose
OFFICIAL Ranking
Overall prequels take it just for having the best parts of Revenge of the Sith and Phantom Menace. Not coincidentally those are the easiest movies to fix and it’s been done probably a hundred times by different people here and on other sites.
Attack of the Clones is really bad and directly caused pretty much everything I hate about the entire series including in the Expanded Universe, but it doesn’t quite attack the audience itself or the concept of the setting, and it has some fun stuff with Obi Wan. Last Jedi takes the foundation and goes a step further into active hostility toward the other movies and the viewer. It has some neat cinematography but that’s nowhere close to making up for any of it.
Rise of Skywalker is a blast to watch because it’s so ridiculous and insane but it is also the only one of the sequels that actually gives the main characters something to do and it ends on a positive message. Force Awakens would be higher if it weren’t so dependent on having a next installment to answer all the questions, so it’s retroactively worse as a result.
New unpopular opinion - Rise of Skywalker is the best of the sequels and it’s not even close.
Unpopular opinion - I don’t like their depiction, but as depicted in the movies, the prequel Jedi that people call “dogmatic,” “flawed,” “political,” “cold,” etc. were right about a lot of things.
They can be right and still be all of those things.
I’m saying that the things that they’re getting criticized for and called those things for, are things they were right about. Not in a realpolitik sense or whatever you’re thinking of, but just in terms of common sense and what is actually depicted in the movies.
This is probably an unpopular opinion now. Return of the Jedi is way better than people think it is and most of their complaints are illegitimate. The Jabba sequence introduces Luke as an almost-complete Jedi, redeems Lando, and rescues Han, simultaneously resolving things that happened during the previous two movies and setting up the rest of this movie. The “pacing issues” of Endor are not really issues at all. No one complains about the early scenes of C3PO and R2D2 wandering around in the desert and getting captured by jawas in the original Star Wars, even though those scenes are even slower, because it just isn’t a problem unless you’re used to the cracked out modern editing of current movies.
The ewoks are fine and also not that different from jawas or ugnaughts. They show the Empire’s hubris, overlooking things they consider small or insignificant. They serve mainly as a distraction to pull the imperial troops into the forest away from the bunker, and the battle is only won because Han, Leia, and Chewie are crack shots and they have elite rebel troops to hold the bunker. If there’s one change I would make, it would be to just add more shots of the rebel soldiers doing more of the fighting.
The second death star is fine and the insanely good space battle and throne room scenes (both still never topped after 40 years of trying) wouldn’t be the same without it.
Leia being Luke’s sister is awkward but… so what? It’s funny and it’s a meme, but that’s it.
I understand that people love to complain because I also love to complain, but every time it comes up the Return of the Jedi criticisms are just unnecessarily cynical for no reason.