Vladius

CaptainFaraday said:

Basically, the Jedi being actually pretty terrible is a big part of Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side, and if you want to enhance the themes of Qui-Gon being the only one who’s really got the right way of doing things, it helps to make it about “the Jedi won’t allow attachment so he can’t even check on his mum” instead of “Qui-Gon was fine with leaving his mother a slave if it meant getting a strong Force user for the Jedi.”

I really don’t like this aspect people attach to the prequels. I don’t think Lucas intended it at all. He genuinely believes in eastern philosophy and the concept of detachment from material things, including people, to become more spiritual, and that the Jedi are good guys. You could sincerely argue that the Jedi were right to not want to train Anakin and to teach him to let go, because it did lead him into trouble. (The only aspect that goes against this is the contradictory Chosen One stuff, which makes it seem like the purpose of his existence was to get in close with Palpatine so he could bring him down much later. But that’s another issue.)

In any case, I think it’s better to just remove the attachment ban/forbidden love stuff altogether. From the Lucas perspective it doesn’t play well to a modern western audience and comes across as cold, and from the revisionist perspective it takes away Anakin’s agency and responsibility for his actions. It makes it less a personal tragedy and more some kind of weird cautionary tale about the dangers of suppressing people’s Freudian urges or something.

What’s more, TROS doesn’t actually change that or abandon it. Palpatine repeats the same stuff he says to Luke, to Rey, “strike me down.” They copy the part where he directs Luke/Rey to look at the battle going on (after this was already copied in TLJ.) They just ignore what he said or justify it by making it so she reflects his own attack back at him, like Mace Windu does.

StarkillerAG said:

RogueLeader said:

Either way, you kind of just end the series with an old man’s face getting melted.

To be fair, the old man who was getting melted was the most evil person in the galaxy, so I don’t have much sympathy for him.

In general, I’m kind of glad TROS chose to eschew the whole “kill him and you’ll be just like him” trope. I get that it’s “part of the fabric of Star Wars” or whatever, but I’ve always thought it was stupid: Luke kills millions of underpaid, abused foot soldiers while everyone around him cheers, but the instant he meets someone who committed mass genocide it somehow becomes wrong to kill him? Despite all of TROS’s flaws, JJ realizing that idea is stupid is probably the best decision he ever made.

It’s not stupid. It’s because Luke would be acting in anger and doing exactly what the Emperor wanted, turning to the dark side in the process. The Force and the dark side have supernatural influence over the situation in a way that they don’t in a normal battle scene. The conflict is a primarily spiritual one and has nothing to do with the outcome of the Battle of Endor. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” That’s one of the Emperor’s temptations, to goad Luke into thinking he can reverse the losing battle, or take revenge, if he just works up the nerve to kill him.

Luke wasn’t going there to take out the enemy military leader or something like that (such as Obi Wan vs. Grievous.) If he was, it would be a sticky ethical question like it is at multiple times in Revenge of the Sith (such as executing Count Dooku and Mace Windu getting ready to execute Palpatine.) But that’s just not why Luke was there, it wasn’t about that.

Since the Empire is already built and the damage is already done, Palpatine is really only an old man who can shoot lightning bolts (and none of the rebels knew the second part.) It’s not Luke’s responsibility to carry out punishment. The Death Star and the Emperor are going to get blown up anyway, and he’s on a personal quest to confront/redeem his father.

EddieDean said:

Vladius said:

I liked that one that used the people getting shot at in Star Trek Insurrection. Kind of silly but it worked.

Which edit was that, Vladius?

I honestly don’t remember, sorry. It was many years ago.

I liked that one that used the people getting shot at in Star Trek Insurrection. Kind of silly but it worked.

A lot of issues could be fixed by just deleting Attack of the Clones and putting the relevant Emergency Powers parts and Sidious meeting with Dooku parts in either the end of episode 1 or the start of 3. Have shots of the clones on Kamino play while Palpatine talks about the army. Maybe include Dooku meeting with the Separatist leaders. Other than the question of establishing how Anakin knows the Lars family you can mostly let the audience fill in the blanks themselves.

Oh Anakin probably went and saw his mom and freed her from slavery, but she died tragically and something bad happened with sand people. Oh Anakin and Padme ended up together, that’s nice. Oh the Trade Federation went and started a larger war and Palpatine made a clone army to fight them, and Jar Jar became a senator and supported him. Oh Palpatine got a new apprentice after Maul.

No wondering why the Jedi didn’t let Anakin see his mom, nothing about “forbidden love” or a ban on attachment (or sending Anakin to the romance planet, alone, with his crush,) no whiny teenager Anakin, no nonsense about the Jedi losing their touch with the Force or having a magic brain cloud remove their common sense. No elected queens. Obi Wan and Anakin have a friendly mentor-student/peer relationship.

People are going to say that the audience would get too confused but plenty of stories do this kind of time jump and it works, it tends to only increase audience interest as they piece together what changed.

EddieDean said:

Vladius said:

I’ve said this before but people use way too many all caps words in their crawls. If you look at the movies they only do one or two.

In chronological order each count is 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 3, 2, 6. So you’re right, and Rise of Skywalker (and the whole sequel trilogy) is an outlier. But I don’t personally think it’s a big issue - I think all caps is an easy tool to direct people’s attention to the core concepts.

It comes across as distracting and almost like self parody (in my opinion.)

I’ve said this before but people use way too many all caps words in their crawls. If you look at the movies they only do one or two.

CaptainFaraday said:

My only criticism to an otherwise good idea is that I like how the audience gets to gradually realise the Republic is starting to fail across the prequels. It’s not obvious at first, as the different stakeholders attempt to keep up appearances to hold onto their positions (the Jedi’s ability to use the Force has diminished, the Senate has become a bureaucracy, everyone except Sidious is one step behind everything that’s happening across all three films), and in the end that’s their undoing as Sidious sweeps in at the last minute and knocks the final pretence of function out of a system that was already dysfunctional. (That’s drawing across AOTC and ROTS as well, but it starts in TPM.)

The problem with this is that it’s all conveyed through dialogue and there’s no visual element. Palpatine tells us that the senate isn’t what it once was and it’s all squabbling bureaucrats now. Count Dooku says it’s corrupt and Qui Gon knew all about it, and in the deleted scene he says that the Republic doesn’t work and it’s time to start over. Mace Windu tells us that their ability to use the Force is diminished and Yoda says the dark side clouds everything and it’s impossible to see the future.

But do we see this change? We don’t ever see the Republic or senate functioning correctly or incorrectly, so there’s nothing to judge it by. The senate scenes in TPM come across as slow, procedural and not a lot happening, but that’s not unusual for politics in real life. If anything following procedures is what a Republic is supposed to do. There isn’t so much as a shot of a senator taking a bribe or meeting with the Trade Federation. Ships can move pretty much instantaneously in Star Wars, so when they talk about actually checking out the blockade it’s not unreasonable to think that that’s a good idea. Also wouldn’t all the places that trade with Naboo also speak up about it since it affects them? You can explain all of this away with corruption but we have to SEE it happen. It’s a movie. Even if it were a book it would be bad to tell instead of show.

We also don’t see the Jedi using the Force to the degree that we would notice if anything was different. If anything they start using it more after that. There’s no scenes of Yoda or whoever else making prophecies about the future before it gets switched off. They just end up looking dumb for not using common sense instead of the victims of supernatural effects. Yoda says “only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows our weakness” and then this is never elaborated on or brought up again, we just have to take their word for it that there is a weakness and it’s getting used.

RogueLeader said:

I recall Brian Blessed (who voiced Boss Nass) gave an interview where he said “I tried to make sure my noises didn’t interfere with dialogue”. He basically said that he thought that Jar Jar sometimes made noises on the line, and he has a lot of plot, so the audience would go, “What’s he saying? What did he say?” Anyway, I’m not saying Brian Blessed should be the authority on this, but I think it is a fair point.

This is exactly why I don’t like Jar Jar. His antics and his voice would be tolerable if you could actually understand what he was saying. Every relevant thing that he says is covered up with babble for no reason.

fidodido said:

sade1212 said:

I also entirely disagree with the […]

Thank you, sade!
I must confess, I haven’t watched Rebels (or any other animated series). But that sounds interesting, thanks for the tip!
Let me try to explain myself: Of course, the idea that Balance is some sort of “greyness” is just an exaggerated, artificial metaphor that can only appear in a fairy tale (which is what Star Wars is to me). Of course, there is no such thing as good and bad either—there are only the subjective definitions of what is good or bad, right or wrong for the person interpreting a situation, action, or object (this is what sociology calls the “interpretative paradigm”).

This is debatable in the real world, but it’s certainly not the position that Star Wars actually takes. Good and evil are objectively real in Star Wars, or at the very least evil is. For Force users at least, it exercises a supernatural influence over behavior and causes physical corruption.
“Grayness” is less of a fairy tale viewpoint and more the moral relativism that you’re talking about. It’s what people try to add to Star Wars when they don’t like the idea of objective morality, because they feel it’s more realistic. I will agree with you that it’s exaggerated, artificial, and incoherent, but that’s all the more reason not to pursue it.

I strongly disagree with everything you’re saying but it wouldn’t be right for me to get into it here.

It could be funny to just have him drop a seismic charge in it as he’s flying by. That seems like the whole reason they came up with the scene and they just came up with a convoluted reason for it to happen.

I really enjoyed this. It feels a lot classier to watch. It’s great without a lot of the overtly wacky elements or overwrought appendices stuff and just feels like the bedtime story it’s supposed to be. Some kind of transition of going up to Azog would be nice, as well as some more mourning of Fili and Kili or avenging them by killing Bolg, but I understand that is 100% not your fault and comes down to a lack of footage. If I had my druthers I would redesign all the CG orcs and probably redesign most of the dwarves too.
The big deviation from the book that I see, and I completely understand that you had to do this too, is that Bilbo never says “the eagles are coming” as they fly over.

Other than that it’s perfect. I would feel comfortable watching this with family and friends.

The flashbacks should be presented straight in chronological order and a little bit faster, then episode 4 should be the first episode. Other than getting out of the sarlacc and the tusken stuff, absolutely nothing happens in episodes 1-3. Episode 4 actually gives Boba a motivation, shows a meeting with the crime bosses, and gives an antagonist. The episode seems to understand this about itself because it even introduces the wookiee like he’s a brand new character we’ve never seen before.

I disagree with 1 but agree with 2 and 3. I noticed that as well and those were some of the only things I didn’t like. I also thought that Paul should have said the “fear is the mind-killer” speech like he does in the trailer, but they only have Jessica say it and they make it seem like it’s something that you do out of weakness, and not a representation of training and strength.
I’m not sure where you would put it, maybe when they’re flying in the sandstorm or maybe during the march into the desert with the Fremen at the end.

I would like to see it as well.

IlFanEditore said:

Except Luke wasn’t “changed for the worse”, IMHO.
I really don’t understand what people watched (and then I’ll promise I’ll shut up. And always remember “De gustibus non disputandum est”).

1. Luke’s strenght was never his infallibility. Luke wasn’t Superman. Luke wasn’t a perfect hero. Never. He always made mistakes. While Leia was fighting in the Alliance, he was “playing” on Tatooine and he wanted to become a Rebel just because he wanted adventures. In Empire he makes a huge mistake that brings to him losing a hand and almost dying. In Return he almost falls to the Dark Side as soon as Vader taunts him. That’s why in my opinion TLJ’s Luke is in line with OT. What he did with Ben was a mistake, and the movie itself recognizes it as a mistake. Objection: “But he tried to redeem Vader. Why didn’t he do the same with Ben?” —> Well, of course because in this case he was responsible.
2. Everyone loved The Mandalorian scene because “that’s the real Luke Skywalker”. Excuse me? In Empire, Yoda says that a Jedi uses the Force “for knowledge and defence”. That’s precisely what he does in TLJ, he projects not to kill but to protect the Resistance. THAT his the concretization of Luke’s arc. His scene in The Mandalorian actually builds on TLJ’s Luke. It mirrors Rogue One’s Vader scene, and Luke (unlike Ahsoka) doesn’t have any doubts about training Grogu. Luke is hot headed, ready to do everything to rebuild the Order. What I’m saying is that there’s only ONE Luke. A flawed hero who makes mistakes (in OT, in The Mandalorian, in TLJ) but always manages to learn from those mistakes. Yet almost everyone is like “I loved him in the Mandalorian because he’s a true jedi there (even though he acts almost like a Sith). But I hate TLJ because that’s not Luke (even though he makes a mistakes, learns from it and brings his arc to a conclusion by using the Force to protect others)”.

I’m sorry for this. I’ll delete it if it’s too much, lol.

The point in Return of the Jedi is that he overcame the temptation to the dark side. It’s the end of his arc, in the last movie. The intent wasn’t to have the audience think that confronting the Emperor and Vader was completely meaningless and that Luke would eventually fall to the dark side anyway. That would be dumb.

And, even though he made a lot of mistakes, his most consistent character traits are his care for his friends and his belief that others can be redeemed. Even if he did inevitably fail at something big like with Ben he wouldn’t try to kill Ben in his sleep or give up entirely and abandon everyone to destruction. You CAN tell a story like that even though it’s unsatisfying and depressing, but you have to do a lot more work than just having one moment completely reverse his character and his entire arc and explaining it as “he got really spooked.”

thebluefrog said:

TheAlaskanSandman said:

Id enjoy seeing an R rated Star Wars. Itd be a pain with all the blood simulation but i think id be pretty cool. As a kid i always liked the blood in ANH and wondered why they did away with it in the other movies. Corridor crew did some small quick vids but they were more on the ridiculous side. I later understood that the wounds were being cauterized but still. I miss the bombastic squids used in the 80’s like in Robocop haha

You know, I actually had an idea for an R-rated Star Wars, complete with sex and nudity. It’d be doable with some actors’ other works and deepfaking.

However, we have to be honest, the SW community is extremely immature and conservative about sexual material, so it would be negatively received (in public) and get a lot of spiteful attempts to stop it.

Too bad, there’s enough source material out there to make it work…maybe I should take another crack at it.

You realize that pornography and liberal sexuality is not the same thing as maturity, right? And that you’re basically taking the same stance as an adolescent?

oojason said:

I thought I was on a reddit thread for The Last Jedi for a while there - not in an OT.com thread - supposedly for an TLJ Edit…
 

hey buddy, you missed the large section of posts bashing Rise of Skywalker

ChainsawAsh said:

Gothamknight said:

Kathleen Kennedy’s hyper-feminism.

Oh. You’re one of those. Gross.

And you’re one of THOSE. Even worse.

(Moderation seems really biased around here.)

I was happy with Rey being no one, in the context of Finn also being that way. TFA makes it seem like Rey and Finn both get to learn abilities and use lightsabers fairly quickly, and like they’re going to be equal protagonists.
After that I have to agree with Gothamknight, the Palpatine thing was better than constantly asserting that she has no history and no reason to exist.

Gothamknight said:

The following video absolutely eviscerates ‘Rise of Skywalker’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0528-TlRODI&t=3617s

Makes me wonder if it’s worth even trying to reedit it.

On the other hand, I was already planning a mashup of TFA and TLJ. Would a mashup of all three be doable? I’m wondering if the map at the beginning of TFA could actually be a map to Exegol: both the First Order and the Resistance could be tracking rumors of a Sith world beyond the Outer Rim, and for obvious reasons trying to be the first to get there.

If that premise can work, then maybe such a mashup is doable. Any other suggestions???

I would love that.

Gimpy said:

I was thinking that it would be an interesting idea to splice the Canto Bight footage/plot into a larger Star killer base narrative. Maybe the exterior shots of the base could be re colored on 1/2 of the matte to make a new matte where we have 1 planet with a diverse biome snow/tropical.

Rather than Star killer merely being just another super weapon, it would act as a hub of the Imperial Remnant’s power and population. Willing participants and loyalists participate in a Fascist regime because it benefits them, or maybe certain galactic inhabitants feel safer. The reason the Republic does not act is because of a potential M.A.D. situation.

Imagine setting this up in the crawl. A stalemate between the Republic and the remnant where the imperials argue “super weapons were bad in the hands of Palpatine, not reasonable people who just want safety that the Republic has not been able to provide with years of galactic rule.”

You could also cut in some of the kajimi footage from episode 9 (of troopers walking in the Snow,) into the Canto Bight footage to make an Imperial presence there clear. Even some of Snoke in his gold bathrobe would make more sense if you could imply that he is ruling a willing bunch of people.

If there was anything that was lacking explanation in these new movies it was an explanation of how the 1st order went from being portrayed as a small radical faction (like Nazis in Argentina) in VII to being the new empire. How did they pay for new ships? How did nobody notice a planet sized super weapon where Illum was? These new films require way too much supplemental material.

If you could frame Canto Bight as being just part of the Starkiller installation, now we have a super weapon that plays host to the supporters of imperial rule. The population knows its a super weapon, but since they are given bread and circuses they don’t care.

Very good idea. I’d like it if superweapons were left out altogether and the whole planet wasn’t blown up either, just the base they’re rescuing Rey from.

Anakin Starkiller said:

snooker said:

who cares about the meme fish man. why do people care about the meme fish man?

Holdo was an actual character with an arc.

I agree with you about Ackbar but this is where I draw the line. Holdo is barely a character and does not have an “arc.”