Vladius

I like it.

I don’t like that quote at all (even if I agreed with the ideas, the cutesy rhyming is really annoying lol) but I get your point. It would be more interesting to explore the ideas and actually grapple with them.

As for the Empire, I would prefer not to take the view that they’re just IRL nazis who have to be exterminated for all time, and if you don’t exterminate them hard enough they just come back for another sequel trilogy. I think it makes more sense if they’re a government that a lot of people consider legitimate and want to live under. Again, I think the Thrawn books and especially the Hand of Thrawn do this in a much better way. The Empire are the bad guys but they’re not completely incompetent, and after the death of Palpatine they change and adapt according to the circumstances. They get rid of their anti alien biases, and they enter peace talks with the New Republic. Leia goes out of her way to establish peace, which is the polar opposite of their idea in the sequel movies, where she is the only person dedicated to total war and everyone else is just too dumb to listen to her.

Somewhere along the line people picked up this idea that the Empire is only WW2 Germany and not also the Roman Empire or even the United States at times. Palpatine isn’t just Hitler, he’s Julius Caesar and Napoleon and others as well. But it’s so common now to see modern domestic political opponents as literally Hitler/Nazis that it produces a kind of tunnel vision where that’s all Star Wars was ever about, and if you try to introduce any nuance then you’re doing something dangerous.

With that said, either way, the main thing to be original would be to focus on an underground terrorist kind of enemy instead of a standing army that’s exactly the same as the Empire or the Trade Federation/Separatists.

The Thrawn Trilogy, maybe condensing and adapting three books into two and then adapting the Hand of Thrawn duology into the third movie. Maybe throw some Jedi Academy/I, Jedi/Kyle Katarn stuff into the mix in the second or third movie.

If I had to use the existing sequel concepts as a base, then I would delete the First Order, delete Starkiller Base, and lean heavily into the angle of Kylo Ren worshiping Darth Vader. The Knights of Ren would be an actual cult of Vader. Their acts would be more like terrorism and less like a military. They would kill and corrupt some of Luke’s students but not all of them, with maybe Rey being their newest student so there’s an audience surrogate for them to explain things to. The Knights’ goal would be more to destabilize the New Republic than conquer or destroy it, and with this they’re pretty successful until the third movie. There are too many competing interests in the New Republic (politicians, planets, corporations, the Jedi, criminals, former imperials, etc.) for it to easily hold together, and they exploit these tensions, probably using assassinations and sabotage, to cause chaos. If Snoke still existed, Snoke would be their leader or maybe their financier. He’s a ruthless alien warlord who got exiled out of the Empire and always hated Palpatine. For a prequel tie in, maybe he’s a former Separatist leader.

Their beliefs would be based on the silly ideas that a lot of current fans have about the Force and how it works, and they would see Anakin/Vader as the embodiment of Balance in the Force, as in someone who was equally attached to the “light side” and the dark side and found total fulfillment by seeking out both (something silly people also say about Revan.) They view themselves as “gray jedi,” with a utilitarian, ends justify the means sort of concept. It would be the task of Luke, Leia (a jedi), and Anakin’s ghost to impress upon them that Vader was enslaved by the dark side and he was not some kind of god of balance, he was a good man who was corrupted by giving into temptation and the power of the Emperor.

It’s up to our heroes Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO, and their pals to defeat the Knights of Ren! Maybe because of the political stuff going on, they have to team up with some scum and villainy types to do it, like a resurrected Boba Fett or some other mercenary guys.

I don’t agree with anything in the OP

yotsuya said:

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

The problem with that is what Lucas told Filoni. It wasn’t just Anakin’s need for power, it is how he was taught that led to that. The duel between Qui-gon and Darth Maul was the duel for Anakin’s fate. Had Qui-gon won, Anakin would have turned out different. Qui-gon is portrayed as a rebel against the Jedi council. Anakin needed an unorthodox teacher teacher like that. Instead he got the by the book teacher in Obi-wan (his comments to Qui-gon both point out how out of step with the council Qui-gon was and how in step he himself was). That plus Palpatine whispering in his ear for thirteen years.

Also, the feeling I get from the PT is that the Jedi are flawed. I stopped reading the EU materials long before the PT came out so I have no clue if they support or contradict the impression I get from the PT itself. The flaw in the Jedi teaching does not lie in their dogma. It lies in the tools they teach their younglings and padawans to resist the temptation of the dark side. What we get is that they don’t teach them anything. They teach dark side abstinence and avoidance. So when the dark side comes calling, they have no defenses to resist it. Fear lead to anger which leads to hate which leads to suffering. Anakin is too old at 9 and has some fear of leaving his mother. So instead of addressing his fear, the Council doesn’t want to teach him. Obi-wan has what Yoda taught him as a youngling and what Qui-gon taught him as a padawan, but we clearly see that Anakin never loses his fear of losing the ones he cares about. There is this wonderful meme someone made of Grogu long after Din Djarin was gone that sums up what Anakin needed. It is not the attachment that is the problem, it is the fear of losing the attachment. Everyone dies so a properly trained Jedi must be prepared to accept the loss and carry on. If you don’t fear the loss, an attachment cannot lead to the dark side. One simple tool, though probably a hard lesson. So I’ve always felt the flaws in the Jedi teachings were there in the films without need to refer to an outside source. Though what Filoni had to say was very enlightening.

I’d argue that we don’t actually know Lucas told that to Filoni. (This is all my opinions and speculation of course.) Because yeah, Filoni said it and he worked with Lucas, but he’s his own person with his own ideas just like Gary Kurtz and Lawrence Kasdan were. Add that to the fact that everything Lucas has said, which I gave some examples of earlier, is in contradiction with what Filoni said, I genuinely cannot believe Filoni got those ideas from Lucas.

“The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that [Anakin] cannot hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn’t willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he’d have been taken in his first years and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them."

I think its safer to assume that Filoni, being as big of an EU as he is, got a lot of ideas and interpretations from it, where lots of novels did raise questions about the Jedi because Lucas did not effectively convey what he was trying to say. Unless Lucas changed his mind on the topic of course, which with his history is completely possible, in which case I digress and will stand corrected.

I completely agree with you about the films and what they show, which is why I try to separate what Lucas said and understand it because it shows he didn’t do as good a job as he should have. It is easier for me to accept the idea that Lucas wanted the plot and story to show one thing, but the result was not what he wanted and its too late to try to fix it. The Jedi come off as a weird group who try to isolate themselves, seem to dismiss emotion, etc. and we get not clear reasons why, which makes us wonder why Anakin’s supposed love for his mother and Padme is wrong.

Also, Lucas’ idea of Attachment is not a bond nor is it love. It is purely greed, greed formed around people. These quotes sum it up well:

“Try not to confuse attachment with love. Attachment is about fear and dependency, and has more to do with love of self than love of another. Love without attachment is the purest love because it isn’t about what others can give you because you’re empty. It is about what you can give others because you’re already full.” — Yasmin Mogahed

“The problem is always that we mistake the idea of love for attachment. You know, we imagine that the grasping and clinging that we have in our relationships shows that we love. Whereas actually it is just attachment, which causes pain. You know, because the more we grasp the more we are afraid to lose, then if we do lose, then of course then of course we are going to suffer.

Attachment says: I love you, therefore I want you to make me happy. And genuine love says: I love you, therefore I want you to be happy. If that includes me, great, if it doesn’t include me, I just want your happiness. And so, it’s a very different feeling. You know, attachment, it’s like holding very tight. But genuine love is like holding very gently, nurturing, but allowing things to flow, not to be held tightly. The more tight we hold on to others, the more we will suffer." - Tenzin Palmo Jetsunma

So yeah, Lucas also failed to make it clear what exactly attachment was, because the only character we see in situations with family and a significant other is with Anakin, who also happens to be the one with attachments the films/Jedi are shunning.

To make it clear, I am a prequel fan. I grew up with them. This particular issue is the one flaw I find in these films and to me its a pretty big one because 1. I like knowing what storytellers want to do with their stories and 2. Because, as I’ve said, I think Lucas failed to deliver this point, and at the end of the day the general consensus and understanding of an art by the audience becomes the more important part.

I think Lucas did fail to deliver his points clearly. His story, the deep stuff, is too subtle. It is there, but you have to watch it several times and read about what he was trying to do, and some you don’t get unless you watch all 6 movies up to that point. I feel that the important point is similar to what you say. Attachment of the sort Anakin had is bad. But I think it is also clear that the Jedi, rather than teach how to have good relationships, just said not to have any. To totally avoid the temptation. I think that shows a failing in their teachings. And it is unfortunate that a significant deleted scene in TLJ repeats this idea as Luke trains Rey. But he makes it about the nature being intertwined with the Force. Anakin didn’t get this lesson. Luke did. And by get I don’t mean he wasn’t taught it. We don’t get to see Anakin’s training so we don’t know. But he didn’t learn it. A proper response to the though of Padme dying in childbirth would be that he would do what he could to prevent it, but if that was her fate then life goes on. Instead Anakin is clinging to her and it destroys him.

One thing I’ve found amusing is that Lucas has said that the force is not like yin/yang, but yet everything he has done with it is very much like the yin/yang concept. Even his talk of bringing balance to the force. So a lot of what Lucas says has to be taken with a grain of salt. I feel he lives in the world of “a certain point of view”. Sometimes I think some of our heated discussions are because some of us see through what he says to what he means and some of us take him as what he says is what he means.

You don’t have to be a Jedi though. No one has to. To be a Jedi is a very specific commitment, just like being a monk is. Only a small fraction of Christians or Buddhists become monks or nuns. It’s even more important for them to have restraints than real life monks because they have insane levels of power and they’re a branch of both the government and the military. Note - I do not agree with the Jedi being depicted this way and I infinitely prefer the era before the prequels when Jedi openly had lovers, marriages, and children.

On a personal level, in my personal faith, marriage is a good thing including for clergy. However, we do have full time missionaries with similar commitments.
But going off of what Lucas was going for, it’s perfectly reasonable for monks to exist. For people that aren’t inherently suspicious of religion anyway.

As for Yin and Yang, that’s another thing that’s conveyed poorly, as that’s not actually what Balance in the Force means, but the very wording of “Balance in the Force” confuses people and leads them in some really silly directions. (You need equal good and evil, light side is about “lack of emotion” and dark side is about emotion, etc.)

of_Kaiburr_and_Whills said:

Want to add to my comment from earlier and explain some of my opinions behind this. The ultimate issue here is that Lucas thinks the Jedi are unquestionable ultimate heroes, but they did not come off that well for most of the audience, and I have to agree.

This is my biggest issue with the prequels, that Lucas did not really convey what he thought the Jedi to be very successfully. Yeah, we get a few lines of dialogue here and there, but nothing that really sticks with the audience unless they are thoroughly examining the films like we are. Of course even then there are still certain major plot points that don’t make the Jedi look too good. Anakin and his enslaved mother is a prime example. Why couldn’t the Jedi free Shmi? Why wasn’t Anakin allowed to see her for a decade?

Like yeah, you could try to explain that in different ways and try to reason it out, but on top of other scenes and plotlines, mixed in with a lack of clear details, its not looking too good. (And this is all coming from someone who grew up with prequels if that means anything.)

I tend to think the main culprit is the sheer amount of other things going on in the films. We really don’t get the Jedi explained as Lucas wanted them to. George Lucas is a talented guy, but I think the prequels would have been better off it were in two parts. One fully explaining the political issues, and another fully exploring the Jedi Order. Seriously, all of the ways Lucas describes the Jedi in the interviews I had brought up never come through that clearly in the prequels. Some things came through in The Clone Wars, but that doesn’t excuse much.

I used to try to reason out all of these things and try to see the prequel Jedi under the most positive light I could, but I always came to the issue that the films themselves don’t show these things. No matter how I tried to rationalize the Jedi’s decisions, and how much I listening to Lucas’ quotes that came out after the fact, they just aren’t present enough in the films.

Lastly, while Lucas is “Buddhist” and were influenced by extremely devoted Buddhist Monks, some consider the Jedi a bastardization of those ideas. So while he may have wanted to base some ideas off of Buddhism, him and his Jedi should never be used as a 1:1 metaphor for Buddhist people and monks. It is fiction over all, and many practices of the Jedi are certainly there for the story only.

Exactly.

One more thing on that, I found a quote from Vision of the Future (number 2 in the Hand of Thrawn duology by Timothy Zahn) that touches on this.

Page 405
(referring to Mara Jade) "She grimaced. ‘Besides, I keep remembering stories about how the last step to becoming a Jedi is usually making some supreme and rather ugly personal sacrifice. I’m not crazy about that one, either.’

‘It’s not always as bad as it seems,’ Luke said, and Mara could sense his discomfort as unpleasant memories of his own floated back to the surface. ‘Just before he died, Master Yoda told me that before I would truly be a Jedi I needed to face Vader again. I jumped to the conclusion that that meant I had to either kill him or let him kill me. As it turned out, it didn’t happen either way.’

‘But you had to be willing to make that sacrifice if necessary,’ Mara pointed out. ‘Thanks, but I’m not interested.’

‘Then you automatically limit your capabilities,’ Luke said."

This accurately reflects the pre-1999 view of what happened. Before the prequels, this is what the original trilogy actually shows and its interpretation.
To become a Jedi, someone needs to make a final, spiritual sacrifice.
In Luke’s case, he had to face Vader.
Like many viewers, Luke incorrectly assumed that this could only mean a fatal duel to the death and Yoda was sending him to either kill or be killed.
The reality, under the influence of the Force, was more complex than that. Yoda could have foreseen this or known that it was more nuanced, because again it was about a spiritual confrontation for Luke to finish becoming a Jedi, not about destroying the Empire.
However, Luke had to be willing to go through with it, if it did mean kill or be killed, which is what Obi Wan tells him. If he wasn’t willing, he was limiting himself.

Now, the prequels ignored this final sacrifice concept. They might be alluding to it with “the Trials” but the Trials are never explained or shown. Perhaps in Obi Wan’s case it was losing Qui Gon. Either way, after The Phantom Menace, it’s dropped. After the prequels, a lot of people assume that Luke is just on an assassination mission like with Yoda and Obi Wan trying to kill Vader and the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith, when that’s not the case. (Also worth noting that in the Zahn books before the prequels, it’s established that Yoda and Obi Wan could have wiped the floor with Vader and the Emperor if they wanted to, but they chose not to, both to avoid abusing their power and to give Luke and the rebellion the real victory.)

You can say oh well, that book is obsolete because the prequels superseded it, or because it’s from the old EU and not the Disney canon (for me it supersedes both,) or because you just don’t like it. Whatever the case, the point is that this was the understanding that people had before the prequels or other material came in, just going off of what is actually shown and said in Return of the Jedi.

Tacofop said:

DrDre said:

I think it is also important to consider, what a Jedi is supposed to do with Vader, if they are not allowed to kill their enemy once defeated. Particulary in the situation, where there is no option to bring him to justice, since the Emperor controls all branches of government. ROTJ makes it clear, that Obi-Wan and Yoda don’t believe Vader can be redeemed, so how is Luke supposed to stop/conquer them, if he cannot kill them? So, let’s for the sake of argument say Luke defeats Vader and the Emperor, and they are at his mercy. What then?

I’ve given this topic a lot of thought lately, and I think that fundamentally, it’s always a question of context. While I believe that the Jedi code would disapprove of killing a defeated enemy in all but the most extreme circumstances, the fact that Yoda challenges Sidious with the full intention of killing him seems to show that certain circumstances do exist that would allow a Jedi to execute their foe. But a Jedi can never strike down an enemy out of fear or anger/hate. And in the context of RotJ, I actually do think the strength of the Rebellion finally allows Luke the possibility of imprisoning the Emperor and/or Vader, a possibility that no longer existed for Yoda. So I think Luke striking down Vader and the Emperor would have been motivated entirely by his own fear or anger, and that’s exactly what he was struggling with during the entire throne room confrontation. I think that’s why Lucas makes it clear that the optimistic side of Luke believes that the Empire ends today with or without his involvement, and that he has to fight the nagging fear that he may be wrong (and should kill the Emperor to prevent the loss of the fleet). I think it would have taken the defeat of the Rebel fleet to bring the possibility of actually executing the Sith into the realm of being defensible, but even then, the only way Luke could do that without falling to the dark side is if it wasn’t motivated by fear.

So to answer your question, I could conceive of an alternate reality where after Luke fully achieves Jedi status, the Emperor manages to fend off Vader’s attack and kills him. Let’s imagine Luke would recover his lightsaber to defend himself from the Emperor, and soon after, Luke can see that the Rebel fleet is routed in retreat. Would Luke strike down the Emperor after defeating him and would it be justified? I think the answer could be yes to both, but only if the execution came from a place of serenity, which wouldn’t be a trivial thing for Luke to achieve in that moment. And even if he went through with it, I could see him being burdened by uncertainty about what he had done.

Tangentially, when it comes to how Obi-Wan and Yoda view the situation, I think there’s nuance that tends to be overlooked by fans who think that they’re essentially sending Luke on an assassination mission. It’s fair to say that Obi-Wan and Yoda have lost hope that Vader can be redeemed at this point, but I don’t think that means they think that Luke has to kill him at all costs. I like to frame it this way, do fans really believe that when Luke is standing over Vader, that Obi-Wan and Yoda want Luke to kill Vader in that moment? If that were the case, then why is that what the Emperor wants Luke to do? Instead, Luke throws down his lightsaber and declares that he’s a Jedi. That’s what Obi-Wan and Yoda want him to do, because they’re Jedi themselves. Not fallen, corrupted Jedi who have lost their way, but true Jedi. It’s what Yoda knew Luke had to do before becoming a Jedi like them; that’s what the conversation in the hut about confronting Vader was getting at. Luke had to prove that he could face Vader without giving into fear, which is the foundation of being a Jedi.

Exactly, you nailed it.

Servii said:

JadedSkywalker said:

It would have been a destruction of the character. But what if we didn’t know who the new Vader was, Luke is missing. at the end of Force Awakens the New Vader removed his mask and its Luke Skywalker. Not Ben Solo.

Reminds me of the “Luke is Kylo Ren” theories floating around before TFA came out. I wasn’t a fan of that idea.

Yeah that’s lame. That’s just as bad as what we got, as far as misunderstanding Luke’s character.

They should have leaned into Kylo Ren worshiping Vader or some kind of cult centered around Vader imitating him. Then either Luke or Anakin’s ghost or both try to convince them that the real Vader was a slave to the dark side and not someone to be imitated or admired but pitied.

Likewise the First Order if anything should have been more of a cargo cult of the Empire or terrorists inspired by the Empire, not more technologically advanced than the Empire.

I think people on the outside are just so enamored of the idea of fanediting and the novelty of it that they don’t know there’s places like this that hash it out and do a better job.

henzINNIT said:

I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.

OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.

He considered it by turning on a very bright, loud energy weapon over him while he slept. Which is either really foolish, or shows it was premeditated. Why is he going in the middle of the night while he’s sleeping anyway? Why not just ask Ben about it or have a mind probe vision while he’s awake? What exactly was the mechanism of Snoke corrupting Ben from a bajillion miles away? What made him turn, and what did Luke know or not know about it? Why is there this very specific level of suspicion where he knew something about it but the moment he knows more about it he needs to draw his weapon and not use it?

There’s so much about that moment that was completely unexplained or just nonsensical. And that’s if you even like the idea of the story.

henzINNIT said:

Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.

The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.

The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.

It’s not like they’re not expecting a fight, including a fight to the death. Clearly they taught Luke how to make his own lightsaber, they trained him how to fight, and Ben does tell him he needs to be able to kill his father. It’s just that that wasn’t the point of telling him to go. He’s there to become a Jedi, not just an assassin.

He absolutely failed in Empire, that was the point. He fell directly into Vader’s trap, he lost the physical fight, and he was consumed by fear. He wasn’t ready for the revelation that Vader was his father, which ties directly to his fears in the vision earlier. We can blame Ben and Yoda for not telling him but it’s unclear if he could have handled it anyway. You’re right that he turned away from Vader’s offer but he was only in that position in the first place because of his own folly, and the only way for him to turn away was to try to commit suicide.
To truly become a Jedi he had to master himself and his emotions, not just his combat potential. Him being crushed and rebuilt is exactly why he has to be tested again.

Actually there is reason to think that. The Emperor is overconfident and thinks that their trap is foolproof. They have the (FULLY OPERATIONAL!) Death Star, and an entire fleet of star destroyers with the Executor, and a planetary shield around the Death Star as well, and a legion of stormtroopers to guard the shield. In any case that’s still the safest place they could be during the space battle. (The other place that Vader would be, would be on the Executor, which also gets blown up.) If the Jedi’s hope for Luke’s ultimate destiny was just to delay them there so that they could be killed on the Death Star that would also be pretty unsatisfying.

My point isn’t the specific mechanics of how they would be killed, it’s that the Jedi weren’t interested in that either. If Luke was really just there to kill them he could have done a much better job in an X-Wing, blowing up the second Death Star just like he blew up the first. No lightsaber or additional Jedi training required. In fact when Luke shows up to the mission he realizes “I’m endangering the mission, I shouldn’t have come,” because it makes Vader more aware of what’s going on.

There is something specific involved with Luke being tested by going after Vader and the Emperor, face-to-face, and it’s not just to kill them.

ADR14NAT1ON said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Would it be fair to say, then, that Yoda’s and Obi Wan’s views on guiding Luke are different but complementary? I think it makes sense, they disagree a lot in the movies. First about Luke being trained in the first place, then about him being their only hope. “No, there is another.”

Luke proved to Yoda that he was worthy of training and his view of sending him to fight Vader is more in line with it being a fear-facing mission, based on what’s shown in Empire, like you are saying. But I feel Obi Wan really wanted him to be ready to kill Vader because he felt he was beyond redemption. Maybe even Obi Wan realized this and that is why he was so ready to die in ANH, he knew Luke was better off with Yoda training him. I wish the show had explored this more in depth.

I think that’s possible but generally when Yoda and Ben disagree they do it vocally onscreen. Maybe they didn’t because Yoda was in the middle of dying lol

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

Well, if you are going to ignore the PT, not much I can say. I feel the PT is crucial to understanding the motives of a Jedi.

But here is the key.

YODA
Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

BEN
Patience.

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for…yes!

BEN
If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

LUKE
I understand.
Artoo, fire up the converters.

Artoo whistles a happy reply.

BEN
Luke, don’t give in to hate - that leads to the dark side.

YODA
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

LUKE
I will. And I’ll return. I promise.

Note it is about conquering Vader and the Emperor, not killing them. Don’t give into hate, that leads to the Dark Side.

And then in ROTJ

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

and

YODA
Remember, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

So, did they expect Luke to Kill Vader? If he had to yes. But showing compassion is part of being a Jedi. Compassion is why neither Obi-wan nor Luke killed Vader. If killing him comes from fear, anger, or aggression, they it would be wrong to give into that.

But the PT makes it even more clear that a Jedi should not just indiscriminately kill. Anakin knew this when he had Count Dooku at his mercy. But Palpatine egged him on to do it.

So we come back to Obi-wan saying he would do what he must and the wording of what Obi-wan and Yoda said to Luke. They did not say to go and kill Vader. They said he must face him. That Vader and the Emperor needed to be conquered. They expected him to go, act like a Jedi, and do what he must to achieve that goal. If that included killing them, he had to be willing to do so. If that meant showing compassion, then that would be what they expected. Obi-wan was ready to kill Vader if he had to, but he never had to. He defeated Vader without having to kill him. Leaving his redemption for his son to achieve.

I agree with this except insofar as it applies to the new show. When he says “I will so what I must” it’s a direct reference to when he says that in ROTS, which is itself related to when Yoda says “destroy the Sith, we must.” It makes sense for them to do that at that stage of things in both cases.

Just don’t engage with him. I don’t think you should increase or decrease anything out of spite for him either.

NFBisms said:

If you have any more general ideas for an edit, there is a more general redux thread for the show. I’m still just trying to break the first act of my personal edit here lol. Not that I don’t appreciate anyone trying to help, but I do have more specific goals than being everyone’s else’s wishlist. I do read that thread and if any of those ideas appeal to me, I’ll reference it here as I fold them in

Otherwise, I might be bowing out until I have a bit more to show. thanks for understanding

DominicCobb said:

Miche said:

NFBisms said:

I like Reva though! I’m actually trying to find a way to include her a bit more as this goes on without it feeling out of left field for who’s mostly been a background player

Why do you like the character? Also, out of curiosity why shift the focus onto a secondary role. I personally found her as stuck up, ill headed, guetto stereotypical want to be baddy. Not sure why anyone would want to include even more screen time.

Assuming “guetto” is a typo for what I think it is, kindly fuck off from this site. We don’t need your kind here.

^^^^^

Definitely true. Personally I think this is because your edit seems like the most promising right now so people are latching onto it.

Sirius said:

I don’t know if someone already brought this up in the edits of this site, but I have an idea about making the imperial cruiser chasing the rebels ship less silly, right before the second Vader vs Kenobi fight.

You can just cut the supposed hyperdrive problem entirely, and make Obi-Wan wanting to confront Vader just because he wants to resolve this personal conflict with Anakin (this is somewhat confirmed by his conversation with Roken). To accomplish that, I think that would be necessary just to cut most of the chase sequence, and insert a shot of the rebels ship entering the light speed right after Obi-Wan’s ship has launched. You could even relocate part of the drama with Obi-Wan and Leia about he being left behind for when they are leaving the planet, i.e. right after Reva being stabbed by Vader but before the beginning of the chase sequence in space.

This way, you make the Empire less incompetent for not sending tie fighters after the rebels ship, since they would have escaped too fast after they leave the orbit of the planet.

This would be good.

Kaweebo said:

I don’t think the Nari scene is necessary, since it’s main point is to show that Kenobi himself has fallen into depression and has become jaded about everything, willing to abandon his moral conscience out of cowardice borne of his PTSD, which doesn’t seem to be as much at the forefront of this edit. This Obi-Wan is more practical, I feel, but driven by his sense of duty more than anything. There’s hints of his having become unbalanced (his inability to communicate with Qui-Gon, for example), but that’s more of a side thing than the main point.

The only other useful thing about that scene is setting the idea up about Obi-Wan burying his sabers in the sand, but I don’t think it’s that big of a stretch to just cut to him retrieving them once he’s resolved to leave like in the edit.

Really, Nari as a character was so mishandled because they decided to show us him through the Inquisitors’ POV rather than his own. If there was a scene of him heading to Tatooine or giving any explanation of the journey he’d been on since Order 66, I’d probably feel better about leaving it in since it’d be set up better. As is, I think his appearance only really works in this context via the Inquisitor scene in the cantina.

I didn’t interpret it that way at all. He’s depressed and jaded but he’s absolutely right to keep his head down and recommend other Jedi do the same. By not going around calling himself Obi Wan and making a big show out of things he’s protecting Luke, which is the most important thing he can do. And his advice was right, Nari just got himself killed anyway. Everything he said was true. And again when he tells Bail Organa that his primary responsibility is Luke, that’s also true.

The show later undercuts this by trying to make it seem like Obi Wan is supposed to abandon Luke so he can have more off world adventures (maybe in season 2) and his “flaw” was not being adventurous enough (?). I hate that but it doesn’t have to be that way. The opening is pretty good and doesn’t have to set up that non-arc.

It’s important to remember that this is not The Last Jedi Luke. With TLJ Luke there is no purpose to it, he hates the Jedi and wants nothing to do with the story. Obi Wan, inside this show or not, depressed or not, is being an isolated hermit for a very good reason. He has a purpose and he’s still a Jedi. There’s a plan in place.

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Kaweebo said:

Editing is much tighter on the Inquisitor scene, though I do think there should be an establishing shot of them exiting the ship before we just cut to them in the bar. Especially when Reva comes into play a bit more later in the show. I get why you edited them walking out because it just highlights how ridiculous they look, but it did feel a bit rushed, almost like they teleported to the cantina.

The editing on Nari and him getting strung up is good, as is the last time Kenobi goes to the Lars homestead. Very impactful. I’m enjoying this so far very much.

I agree with this. I also think it might be good to include the scene of Nari visiting Obi Wan before he gets killed, just to introduce who he is, let Obi Wan express “we lost,” and let the inquisitor scene play out to show why Obi Wan’s caution was justified while also making him feel it harder when Nari does get killed. I know that all we really need to know is that he’s a Jedi but as it is it feels a little abrupt. I also thought that this little sequence of events was something the original show did well.

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

I get what George is trying to say about attachment, but it bugs me that he considers emotional connection to your own mother, or simply the act of falling in love with someone, as something problematic. Anakin falling for Padme is portrayed as a dangerous thing, like it’s a “sin,” but Anakin’s behavior towards Padme doesn’t become overtly possessive until RotS. It’s hard to gauge what Lucas considers to be crossing the line from “good” love to “bad/possessive” love.

act on instinct said:

I understand the resistance to the ideas about attachments but that’s really something to take up with Buddhism/Hinduism more than Lucas who is being a pretty loyal messenger to the eastern view on such things, rather than misinterpreting or inventing.

The idea behind attachments, I think, is a good idea poorly executed. The Force gives mere humans immense power, and humans are fallible and make rash decisions based on emotion, greed, and self-interest. Trying to eliminate any potential motivation to slip away from righteousness is probably a good idea. The distinction between “good” love and “possessive” love needed to be way more clear, but if the PT leaned further into this idea, the distinction becomes more clear. Anakin’s love for Padmé isn’t healthy because of what it motivates him to do. Simply, it clouds his judgment. He isn’t making rational decisions because he’s afraid to lose her.

The problem with this, though, is that no human is capable of living a life without sin. George Lucas is a Buddhist Christian, and if heaven is where the righteous come to live with God in the afterlife, and sin is antithetical to God’s very being, heaven should be entirely unpopulated. An infinite being has infinite moral standards, and no human is perfect. Drinking soda is a sin. Driving a car is a sin. And those are just baby examples, there’s so much worse stuff that everybody contributes to simply for existing, it’s just that maybe it isn’t tone appropriate to bring that up on a Star Wars forum. Even being associated with anything like this, though, makes you partially morally responsible for great harm.

I thought that first part was already pretty explicit.

You’re describing Christianity without Christ. The whole point is that Christ redeemed humanity’s imperfections and allows people to become more perfect than they were and reach heaven with his help. I don’t know what you’re trying to achieve here by trying to point out problems with Christianity.

I think you’re also stretching the definition of sin. Why is drinking soda or driving a car sinful? Contributing to something just by existing isn’t a sin either because sin requires an actual choice being made.

Superweapon VII said:

Vladius said:

act on instinct said:

Servii said:

I agree with what SparkySywer said above.

I get what George is trying to say about attachment, but it bugs me that he considers emotional connection to your own mother, or simply the act of falling in love with someone, as something problematic. Anakin falling for Padme is portrayed as a dangerous thing, like it’s a “sin,” but Anakin’s behavior towards Padme doesn’t become overtly possessive until RotS. It’s hard to gauge what Lucas considers to be crossing the line from “good” love to “bad/possessive” love. And we don’t really see much of the Jedi showing that compassionate love to people. And maybe that was intentional, but I don’t think it was.

I understand the resistance to the ideas about attachments but that’s really something to take up with Buddhism/Hinduism more than Lucas who is being a pretty loyal messenger to the eastern view on such things, rather than misinterpreting or inventing.

From the Bhagavad Gita, I’m sure it will sound familiar:
https://panindiahindu.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/love-vs-attachment-in-the-context-of-gita/

Exactly. It’s very difficult for a secular, materialist, western audience to accept the idea of not leading yourself by your emotions or what gives you “fulfillment” or sexual desire.

Something which shouldn’t be ignored is that unlike the Jedi, the average Hindu/Buddhist can still practice their faith without having to become an ascetic. It’s not the doctrine that’s the problem; it’s the Jedi’s dogmatic adherance to it. Them taking children too young to give informed consent only compounds the problem.

The Jedi aren’t completely ascetic either and there are clearly people that believe in the Force without becoming Jedi. But anyway, their dogmatic adherence isn’t a problem at all. The problem is Anakin’s refusal to follow the dogma. Like I said that’s really uncomfortable for westerners (especially Americans) who love individuality and rebellion above all else, which is ironic given how Star Wars started with being about rebellion.

The thing is that Anakin (or any of the younglings) could have chosen to leave the Jedi at any time. There’s nothing forcing them to stay. Anakin’s problem is that he can’t leave just to be with Padme, he wants to have it all. He’s ambitious. “I want more, and I know I shouldn’t.” He wants to be the big hero, to be on the Jedi Council, to be a master, to make people do what he wants. So Palpatine offers him the chance to save Padme by being more powerful, not less.

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.