VideInfra78

TMBTM said:

I kind of like the idea of "cloning" being the "macguffin" of the NPT.

The technology everyone (bad guys and good guys) wants to control but that don't really matter from the audience point of view, since what would be interesting should be the relationship between the characters.

Hell, the "moral" of the NPT could even be that the Force (used for good or evil, since the bad guys wins in the end anyway) is stronger than technology.

I like it as well, I think cloning or the clones should have been a really important concept in the PT. I think what surprised me the most about the PT is just how unimaginative they were. I couldn't believe they came from the same mind that created Star Wars. There was nothing novel or interesting about them other than the double-bladed lightsaber, but then I read somewhere that that wasn't even Lucas's idea, it was from EU. Even the design and concepts of the aliens and the spaceships were pretty terrible, they sorely missed Ralph McQuarrie I guess. I'll never forget my first impressions of the opening minutes of TPM. Uhh, wtf is that annoying Jar Jar thing? Uhh, Star Wars has SR-71 Blackbirds? Jesus, George, you could have paid me to do this stuff.

xhonzi said:

VideInfra78 said:

...forgot to mention my interpretations of the Force. I always thought that Dark Side and Light Side were polar opposites of each other and that the Jedi would live on in the afterlife while the Dark Side users would have an afterlife in the Star Wars world. So my interpretation was that Dark Side users could never die of natural causes. That was the power of the dark side, immortality, but when they die, their "life energy" is dissipated in the "real world" like what happens to the Emperor. The choice would be that as a Light Sider you could live forever in the afterlife but have a limited life here, but as a Dark Sider you could live forever in the "real world". It makes for a much tougher choice, you just have to be sure you don't get axed. It's kind of like making a deal with the Devil/Dark Side. Anyway, that's just how I thought it should always be. I always thought the Emperor was hundreds of years old as a child and that he was once human but that age and the dark side had corrupted his physical appearance.

That's interesting.  That's not too far off from what I was saying, but that they couldn't die from natural causes.  Presumably with some supernatural protection against unnatural causes as well, or else they might not be willing to stick their necks out so far trying to conquer the galaxy.

I also got the sense that Palpatine was very old.

I'm not sure where I dropped this other little nugget.  (It's here several places, I know, but I'm not sure where any one of them is)  In trying to craft a "realistic and satisfactory" arc for Anakin that includes a "fall/seduction" to the Dark Side... I've analized Luke's "lean to the Dark Side" at the end of Jedi.  It's the only concrete example of how the Dark Side can overtake an otherwise good Jedi.  And the conclusion I've come to is that the scene, on the surface, is broken to me.  Palpatine claims Luke will be his new apprentice if he can take out Vader.  Assuming this is true, why would Luke "stop killing the bad guys" if the Dark Side had compelled him to kill Vader?  Wouldn't he follow through and take out Palpatine as well?  He would have tried, at least, right?  Either he would have killed Palpatine or would have been killed by Palpatine.  Maybe I can see him attacking Palpatine and being toyed with Cat->Mouse until Palpatine traps him and takes him prisoner for further indoctrination...

But I digress.  My point is this: Palpatine appears to not have a very good exit strategy from DSII at the end of RotJ.  This makes him look a little stupid.  And how exactly Luke would end up being his apprentice in any scenario- I can't see it working out.  IF you take into account Palpatine using cloning and not fearing his own death... then he is poised to use his death as a means of converting Luke to the Dark Side.  If Luke wins his "duel" with Vader by tapping into the Dark Side, presumably he then turns on an undefended Palpatine.  The Light Side would not allow Luke to kill an undefended man, no matter how evil he might be.  But the Dark Side!  The Dark Side would compel Luke to take revenge on the man, to blame him for the making Luke kill his own father!  It was Palpatine's fault for corrupting him afterall!  So, Luke cuts him down!  Is his Journey to the Dark Side complete?  No, what nonsense!  But his Journey to the Dark Side has begun.  And Palpatine, having cheated death, will be there to guide him in.

Anakin's first temptation as a Sith should not have been to murder innocent Jedi children.  Murder.  Innocent.  Jedi.  Children.  It goes against everything the man stood for 10 minutes prior.  Sending him to despose of the Separatist Leaders is much better.  It's not murder, it's a military assassination to end a war.  Palpatine is a commander and Anakin is a soldier- and the war does need to end.  So you can justify it, from a moral perspective.  And using the Dark Side to control enough power to bring to pass a good thing... THAT is a temptation for a Jedi.

Return of the Jedi is my least favorite of the OT movies, but I don't mind any of the scenes with Vader, Palps, and Luke...other than I thought Vader should have disappeared. I always interpreted it as Palps just needed him to turn to the Dark Side to control him. So after Luke turns, it's like a switch has gone off and he doesn't really think rationally anymore. And from what we saw, Palps would have no problem handling Luke anyway. But yeah, if he goes to the Dark Side and still thinks rationally it doesn't make sense, but I got the feeling the Dark Side makes you kinda crazy and Palps just needed to push Luke over the edge.

With your clone concept, Luke still thinks rationally as a Dark Side user, he would always try to kill Palps, clones or not. I like that you've tried to work clones into the overall story, but I think that cloning technology has to end with the PT because it's never mentioned throughout any of the movies other than a reference to the past in which it's pretty much assumed since there are no more clones, that the clone threat/technology was defeated. But that's just my take on the whole thing. But yeah, as far as Anakin's fall, it was just weird. There was never any type of temptation at all really, not a believable one. When Anakin does turn, I would say he does the correct thing, and not Mace. Anakin wants to arrest Palps, I think that was actually more of the "light side" thing to do, Mace wanted to go vigilante, that in my eyes is more dark side. Anakin's reasoning could have been an excuse, but still Anakin ended up doing a light side act to turn to the dark side. That makes no sense to me.

...forgot to mention my interpretations of the Force. I always thought that Dark Side and Light Side were polar opposites of each other and that the Jedi would live on in the afterlife while the Dark Side users would have an afterlife in the Star Wars world. So my interpretation was that Dark Side users could never die of natural causes. That was the power of the dark side, immortality, but when they die, their "life energy" is dissipated in the "real world" like what happens to the Emperor. The choice would be that as a Light Sider you could live forever in the afterlife but have a limited life here, but as a Dark Sider you could live forever in the "real world". It makes for a much tougher choice, you just have to be sure you don't get axed. It's kind of like making a deal with the Devil/Dark Side. Anyway, that's just how I thought it should always be. I always thought the Emperor was hundreds of years old as a child and that he was once human but that age and the dark side had corrupted his physical appearance.

xhonzi said:

Here's a relatively simple "restriction" I've been toying with: Cloning doesn't work on humans.

This does a couple things for you:
1. It restricts "primary" characters from being clones so the audience doesn't feel like you're jerking them around with fake deaths, or clone deaths or having to be suspect whether the main characters are themselves or not.  
2. If it's only the humans that can't be cloned, it gives the Empire the rationale they need to be distrustful of non Human races.  All important leadership roles would need to be held by Humans since they are beyond suspicion of being replaced by clones.
3. If it's a single race that can be cloned: That means anytime you see that race, it's probably a clone.  If the Clone Wars are destructive enough, then some galactic leaders would approve of complete genocide of that race of creatures if it means "restoring peace" to the rest of the galaxy.

I'll add one more and this is where my ideas get most unpopular: (some of it is here: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-Emperors-New-Clones/topic/11008/ )

Perhaps the human clones "don't work" because they "have no mind."  Their bodies are completely functional, but their brains just don't work.  They simply lie as if in a coma.  But Palpatine, seeking immortality through manipulations of the Dark Side, is also using the clones- not to build an army, but to create an infinite supply of Palpatine bodies which he can use to transfer his dark soul into.  So this gives Palpatine a motivation for the prequels besides simply "conquer the known galaxy."  But, probably best, in my opinion, it gives you a reason that Vader would server Palpatine and the Dark Side.  If transferring your soul is one of the hardest "spells" in Dark Side Magic and Vader has to learn it from Palpatine and also gain proficiency at using the Dark Side...  well, it sure beats the "Join me and the Dark Side so that your wife can live forever.  By the way, she's dead and you killed her, but joine me anyway." logic of Revenge of the Sith.
 

An interesting read and take on cloning. I'd have to say I am against the Emperor living on after ROTJ. I'm not a big fan of the EU at all, I didn't even really like the Thrawn Trilogy to be honest. But I do really like your ideas with cloning.

I was really unimpressed with how Lucas handled cloning, cloning opens up a whole new world to Star Wars, and we really didn't get any information at all about it. The Jedi seemed content to use an enslaved clone army without a thought. Where do the clones come from? Why doesn't everyone clone? How many planets have the technology? Why aren't there clones in the OT? Are the stormtroopers actually clones (I'm not sure, I'm assuming they are.) Why are only troopers clones? Do they have feelings? Why didn't the Emperor just clone a million Darth Mauls?, Etc. Really, the clones added nothing to the story, they could have just as well not have been clones and it wouldn't have made a difference.

I actually wouldn't be opposed to the Emperor flirting with cloning before the OT, I just really think the Emperor needs to die in ROTJ. Or, he shouldn't have died in ROTJ and then have him die in a third trilogy which I guess was the original plan. I like your ideas, and I agree with you, as I have added transferring the mind to clone bodies also as a dark side Force when I killed Padme. It seemed obvious to me that would have been a better route to go with Anakin. "Hey, I can clone your wife and transfer her mind." Instead of, "oh, I don't know, I heard of this guy who might have done something like that...maybe...oh, and we would need to work together...and then maybe we could do it, hope you're in no rush...JOIN ME!".

One thing I think that I might incorporate is the xenophobia aspect. I really think that should have been addressed. I always thought George Lucas added that aspect on purpose and I was so excited to watch the prequels and see why all of the Empire was only humans and the Rebellion had aliens. Well, guess there was no reason at all? Lame. Yet another question not answered.

In your Emperor's Clothes thread I saw we also agreed on the Force aspects itself and the Emperor's background. I really think the Emperor is an absolute. He is evil, completely. He doesn't need any background story, he is the epitome of everything that is evil, and that's it. But I thought that Anakin's flirtations could have been an interesting story. And that is that sometimes evil deeds have good intentions and sometimes things are gray. And that hsould have started his fall. I thought that Lucas would have focused more on things that didn't seem so evil at first. I think I like the story better, how you would also have it, that the Emperor is just pure evil. But Darth Vader is a Sith and perhaps they are generally evil, but not clearly so. For example, I have a few scenes written in my head where Anakin discusses these interpretations. For example, suffering...can actually be considered something good. When you suffer, it teaches you to be humble, it makes you stronger. And these are the types of axioms that I'd have the Sith subscribe to. Survival of the fittest, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, anti-pacifists, mercy is for the weak (kill your enemies or they come back to haunt you). I thought that that when Anakin was talking about the Galaxy needing a strong leader George was going somewhere with something, alas, Anakin never said a word about it again. I totally expected a scene where Anakin thought the Jedi were being too passive, and that they needed to fight first and ask questions later because of time being of the essence. Really all we got was a bunch of whining all the time. Vader just turned out to be a retard. It's a shame, because that would have fit in with Vader just wanting order, ruling the galaxy as father and son. His intentions weren't pure evil, but his actions were.

It sure does make a better story, addressing these things. I might have even been able to get past Jar Jar if some adult issues were handled well. Some people claim that the politics were interesting, but it wasn't explained well either and those people obviously know nothing about history, there wasn't anything original about the story at all. Anyway, you've got some good ideas there, but I really think that cloning has to end with the PT.

xhonzi said:

I see what you're doing there and it's a very creative solution to the Vader misdirection problem.  Maybe you just need to explain it better since you said you have other puzzle pieces you haven't laid out yet... but here's my read so far:

Cloning has to be reeled in somehow in the NPT.  Cloning seems to be such a powerful technology that any fictional universe which contains the possibility of cloning would need to be almost exclusively about cloning.

Maybe let me phrase this as a question: Why don't we see any clones around the time of the OT?  Maybe some of the Stormtrooper force is still made up of clones... and we're told that Boba Fett is actually a clone (whatevs!) but no one is talking about cloning Mon Mothma and replacing the head of the Alliance with an ersatz clone.  When they capture Leia and torture her on the DS, why don't they just clone her and send the clone back to Alderaan or let Luke and Han rescue the clone.  (Or didn't they?  Hmm...)  What the heck is Vader doing in his damaged, scarred, robot body if he could just order a new perfect one up from room service?  Just like the early EU had something of a Superweapon problem, introducing cloning into Star Wars, unless it was somehow specifically restrained, would just overtake every Star Wars story.  Think of world history since the US dropped the bombs in Japan- a large amount of it has been about keeping secret, reverse engineering, stockpiling, limiting production, etc. of atomic weapons. 

Yet cloning, though unexplored, has been a part of the Star Wars fiction ever since Luke and Ben talked about the Clone Wars in A New Hope.

Conclusion: The prequels had to have cloning in them.  The NPT has to have cloning in it.  BUT, cloning should be restricted in some way as to explain why it's not any more widespread than it is.  And then, the door on that technology must be more or less closed so that it is relatively a non-factor by the time the OT rolls around.  I don't know how to introduce that door so that it can be closed in a series of movies made 30 years ago.  But if you can figure that out, I think you'd be on your way to having a decent foundation upon which you can build your Clone Wars backdrop for a New Prequel Trilogy.

I agree with you on those points and I have thought about that. In my version of the NPT I would make it to where use of the Force cannot be transferred. So a clone could never use the Force, because for lack of a better term, it doesn't have a "soul". And so that "mythic power" that a being has, a clone does not have. Really, Lucas needs to address why Palps just didn't clone a million Darth Mauls since his clones are totally obedient. But with the Luke clone, I would have this be some type of exception, some hard to pull-off new technology, or better yet something that the dark side is needed for as well. But ultimately, you're right, at the end of the NPT the cloning facilities or race has to be destroyed. And I would plan to do that, as it does give the good guys some type of victory even though they end up losing the galaxy to the Empire.

A clone of Luke... Was that correct?

Maybe I shouldn't have posted until I get everything more coherent. I need to explain it more, but ultimately yes. I'll have more time tomorrow and next week, I can explain it better. But yeah, clone technology will progress through the movies. The first problem with the clones being that they aren't able to use the Force (in the PT why didn't they just clone Maul a million times if they are totally obedient?). But then eventually I'd have Luke being discovered, but not by Anakin, and a clone is made of him but it is progressed in age. It's not really Luke, it's just a clone. I still have a lot of thinking to do about it, but I like it for a number of reasons. People would think Luke is fighting a dark side of himself, and really, that's what the OT is about, just not literally. You have the cave scene which reinforces that. A lot I just didn't have time to write and explain and some things I just haven't pieced together. I do have more to piece together on that, and really, I can scrap the volcano and even Obi-Wan being there. But the Luke clone I do like. I just haven't figured out if the Emperor makes him to secretly take down Anakin, because at that point Anakin is showing resistance to the dark side, and the Emperor knows that a child with two Jedi parents would be stronger or if the clone is made by the good guys and turned bad, he at least has to be with Obi-Wan at one point as some sort of pupil. Or, really that the Luke clone would be A...but then also have a new Obi-Wan apprentice who is choice B (although probably wouldn't have him turn to the dark side because that is redundant). Then have the truth C, end up being Anakin. I haven't worked it all out, but those are the reasons I like it. If I scrapped that idea, you'd basically just have to show Anakin's death off camera and go with what Lucas did.

Edit: I'll just re-post it when I have it more fleshed out, I guess it doesn't make much sense right now. I'll have some time next week. =)

Luke: No, my father didn't fight in the Clone Wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter. Obi-Wan: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals; he felt he should've stayed here and not gotten involved. Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars? Obi-Wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father. Luke: I wish I'd known him. Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you've become quite a good pilot yourself. [sorrowfully] Obi-Wan: And he was a good friend.

Watched the scene, I'd have to say that what I thought was correct. He doesn't say "just" either. From this conversation, I just don't see it as him being a navigator on a spice freighter, but a real "star pilot". Sorry.

Bingowings said:

By making him a pilot on a spice freighter it turns a lie into not the whole truth,

"That's just what your uncle told you."

The implication being that there was much more to the story that Owen didn't tell Luke (something Ben would continue to do).

What sort of mentors are these guys?

Ah, okay. I'll have to watch the scene again. It's interesting that you can watch a scene a million times and have a different interpretation that someone else whose watched it as many. I think if Obi-Wan meant that that was only part of it he would have said it in a different way. I always interpreted it as "nah, that was just your uncle not wanting to tell you he was a jedi knight." Because I thought afterwards he goes on to say he was a great pilot and a jedi knight and I just assumed he was this bad ass "fighter pilot" not someone who made shipments of spice. It seems that's an unnatural way to say what you think he means. But, I'll watch it again. =)

mrbenja0618 said:

I think if someone would just write a draft, maybe we could take it from there.

Work has been hectic this week. But last night I was able to read through this entire post. What at first I thought were a lot of similarities to what I had in my mind I guess didn't end up being so as I read further. But it's a shame that my vision follows more closely to the people that really don't post here anymore.

I was surprised more progress hadn't been made, the first post was a year ago I think? But it is tough, 3 movies is a lot of material. At first I wanted to make scripts until I sat down to do it and realized that it's a ton of work. One movie okay, but 3? That's when I just decided to work on stuff when I had time.

The reason I was excited about this post though was the willingness to throw the prequels out entirely. Usually, "rewriting the prequels" is people deciding to take out Jar Jar. That's just editing. Of course, throwing them out also means more work. I'm also from the camp that they were meant to be seen in order (hence, the episodes) and plot twists should be preserved. New characters should be made, and only the necessary ones used. I also think the movies should stand on their own like the first ones were able to. I also think the movies should be character-driven with galactic affairs happening in the background. Oh, and of course, nothing should conflict - (looking at you George).

My notes are at home and I'll try to post after work. Curious, what happened to the script that was being written?

Note: I found it interesting that everyone here thought that Anakin should be a pilot on a spice freighter. That actually was just what Owen had told Luke, it wasn't the truth. "That's just what your uncle told you."

PART TWO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poBUYSFmiCE

P.S. If you guys don't like Yoda looking weak...well...you won't like part two! ;)

Love part 2. The fact that Vader's identity is still open preserves ESB. Was never sure why Lucas didn't do it that way.

Is this thread still alive? Work has been slow and for the past few months I've just been thinking about what I'd do with the PT if they were scrapped, I've even delved into a treatment for the first. I've had a few ideas, a few which were mentioned in this thread, which is pretty cool. I'd love to contribute if people are still talking about the subject. Thanks.

Bingowings said:

We are still talking about them in the context of rendering them into something other (and hopefully better) than the manner which you describe (which most of us also recognise and agree with you about).

Yes it is a long thread and for me to précis the ideas on it would make for a huge post all on it's own. If you set out and paced yourself you could get through it in a reasonable amount of time.

Some of the aspects of the films you point out (like Dooku's name) are almost impossible to get around as they are so deeply embedded in the dialogue uttered during key scenes, though I would be very interested in any suggestions you have for getting around such obstacles and what you would replace them with.

Some edits like JasonN's have reduced Dooku's cartoonish moves down to a minimum (the aim being to make him not a Sith Lord but a Jedi who is making a stand against a compromised Senate, a forerunner of the Rebellion of the OT).

There have been many suggestions regarding how to make the Gungans less ridiculous (even how to remove them all together) and to give the Trade Federation different motives and different voices and to make Grievous more sinister or even an anti-hero of sorts via re-dubbing and altering his appearance.

To some extent we are stuck with some of the elements of the PT (unless someone can figure out a way to make the films from scratch) but there are a lot of different methods of reconstructing the elements already there so they do make more sense and fit better into the universe we saw in the original films.

Actually, somehow I just totally misunderstood the point of this post. I didn't realize you were still trying to edit these movies, I thought it was ideas just for re-writing them. I apologize.

Is there a thread about that? I mean totally just what if we could re-write these things? Or anyone know of a site, or someone who has done it? I have a lot of ideas what would just be fun to discuss.

By the way, I vote for the Jedi lightsabers being all blue. =) They were actually always supposed to be that way. The only reason Luke's was green was because the blue didn't show up well against the background of the blue sky when Luke was on Tatooine (it was blue in the trailers too). Personally, I find that in the prequels all the colors are so distracting, it's so hard to even tell what's going on, Lucas just tries to cram as much shit as he can in each shot. Plus it just seems lame that the Jedi love their rainbow colors and then the Sith only have red. It should be just that each order has their own color. I always thought about Luke's green signifying a new era.

TV's Frink said:

And as always...if you don't like it, you don't have to watch (or post, for that matter).

Other than that, welcome to the forum! ;-)

I feel welcome already! Thanks. =)

I do support a thread like this. But, really what the problem is, is that the prequels had no purpose. They didn't need to be made, there was no story to tell. It's ironic that the PT was about clones, because Lucas had no original themes or ideas, he just copied the OT and claimed it was an homage. An homage is a scene or two, Lucas straight up copied himself. Down to where if you watched them in order, it's like you're watching the same 3 movies again. (Obi-Wan with the landing claw? Come on Lucas, couldn't you have thought of something different, anything? I always assumed what Han did was magnetic, guess not.) The PT was a clone without a soul, there was no theme. If you really had to try to pry one out of it from somewhere it was that people shouldn't have attachments. That is a horrible theme! So that's what needs to be addressed in each movie. What is the theme of each movie? Has this been discussed? I've tried to sift through this whole thread, but it's really long.

Bingowings said:

The idea of this thread is to go beyond spot patching (though some edits have made improvements with minor changes).

Then why is everyone talking about Grievous who is basically a caricature of ridiculousness when it comes to wielding lightsabers. And Dooku, who was the most cardboard villain maybe in the history of cinema. Plus his name is Dooku, why on earth would you keep that? The Gungans, I thought were a CGI mess. The Trade Federation, I don't even understand what it was, something to do with trade I guess. Beyond that it was very confusing, being that it had an Army and a place in the Senate. Why keep that when the only thing about the Trade Federation that was explained, just didn't make sense. This thread is very long, I've tried to read as much as I could. What radical ideas have been introduced so far? Maybe I missed them, it's a long thread.

I really think these Prequels are beyond saving. I don't know that I'd take one thing from them if I had to write them over. Maybe Darth Maul and the double-bladed lightsaber. Other than, I would start from scratch. No other character is worth salvaging. Grievous is retardedly over the top, Count Dookie is the most cardboard villain I've ever come across. The creature design really missed Ralph McQuarrie. I can't think of anything I would keep from these films. Story-wise there are just way too many holes, you might as well tear the wall down and build another instead of trying to spot-patch it.