Valheru_84

Mocata said:

I could be wrong, but while TFA had say three new themes, the only memorable music in TLJ was TIE Fighter Attack from Star Wars… Listening to it now but so far it’s just the old stuff.

I’ve tried a few times since seeing TLJ to think if there were any new memorable themes from TLJ but I can’t actually remember any of the music apart from knowing it borrowed various themes from earlier movies here and there to try and evoke emotion when they wanted it or to help lead you to an expectation so it could then be subverted on you.

Were there actually any new standout themes or even new themes at all? One thing the PT taught me is that no matter how bad a SW movie may get, you could always count on Williams to produce an outstanding score with at least one standout new theme per movie. I am thinking maybe I can’t even get that much out of TLJ this time round, which would be saddening if not even Williams could give me one positive thing to say about TLJ.

Val

Dr. Krogshöj said:

Sir Ridley said:

I don’t see how the beam could enter hyperspace partway through. The speed of the beam should come from how fast it is pushed out from the weapon, unlike a ship which propels itself forward and can enter hyperspace using its hyperdrive.

I agree, it is a stretch. A big one. But I don’t see any other way to reconcile two things: 1, the plasma beam being fired from SKB and hitting the targeted planets visibly and clearly at a sublight speed and 2, it travelling across the galaxy almost instantaneously. In my head, SBK has some sort of tunelling device that creates a hyperspace wormhole, the “entrance” of which is near the origin and the “exit” near the destination.

I think if it was the SKB itself creating a lightspeed tunnel or wormhole that the beam enters and exits, this is a lot more believable. Also if the SKB has the capacity to compress an entire star into itself / its “modulating capacitors” (or whatever the explanation was again for being able to do this), you could say the SKB has the capacity to also use this energy in a further compressed form to generate a small black hole like wormhole out front of it that links to just outside of the destination they want to fire on, providing the means for the energy beam to pass through within the time shown in the original movie.

The fact that the star itself does not have enough mass to form a black hole yet the SKB can suck it in from that distance and compress it that much speaks to the power of SKB and its potential for other uses of that power.

Val

Collipso said:

88 minutes is a bit too short for RotS imo. It’s probably rushed in several places.

I would highly recommend giving it a watch before deciding if it is too short 😉

Oh and I forgot to mention but the AC edits do the best redub of the Neimoidians to give them alien voices and language with new lines via english subtitles and is the best use of this technique that I have seen to date to give these characters more threat and menace as well as removing the cheese at the same time. I think the AC edits may have even been the original pioneers of this idea for TPM.

Val

Collipso said:

Do the anti cheese versions or the Kerr edit include any deleted scenes or major re edits?

From memory the AC edits only cut out the “cheese” as best possible, not really editing anything else and just trying to make more tolerable versions of the theatricals.

I think Kerr’s edit does use the deleted scene where Padme meets secretly with the other senators but I’d have to rewatch to confirm and remember any others as its been a while since I last watched it. The IMDB for it doesnt seem to mention any added scenes though after a quick scan through from which you can see that it does do some rather extensive re-editing though its still essentially ROTS - just much more cohesive, believable and shorter:

https://ifdb.fanedit.org/star-wars-episode-iii-dark-force-rising/

Val

Ok…so for someone that really doesn’t like TLJ (just shy of hate) and hates what RJ and Disney have done to SW with TLJ, this analysis video is absolutely beautiful! That is not to say that it’s not also very watchable / listenable by people that like the movie as he does a great job on remaining pretty unbiased and simply poses logical questions and really explains where his point of view comes from.

It is in similar vein to the Red Letter Media detailed critical analysis videos of the prequels and equally as long, if not longer. This is only the first of 3 parts and it’s 1hr and 22min by itself but it’s interesting and on point from start to finish, I had no trouble listening the whole way through.

It is very much a detailed and in depth movie critique rather than the usual ranting review or opinion piece from one or another of the varying extreme views out there (and therefore there are no pre-warnings required for this video 😉 ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk

Val

So I’ve had a further 8 people sign up since my last post above just for copies of the AC edits, bringing the total to 23. For something random people are coming in from off site to find, the AC edits are hot property right now!

I’m also now including and recommending a copy of Kerr’s ‘Episode 3 - Dark Force Rising’ via the AC edit link. Coupled with the Episode 1 and 2 AC edits, those are my definitive PT edits and have remained so for some time now.

Val

Great thread Solkap, very interesting to read and glad to hear about the efforts going into preserving these films since no one else seems to care or understand their significance.

Val

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.

Then I read this article:

“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020

I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?

What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.

How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.

Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.

Wow, this is a great article. It makes me angry and sad all over again for what has transpired in TLJ but it is also great being able to read something that so soundly articulates many of the things I find wrong with the movie. Your comments above are also very much on point and a great way to analyse such matters. Nearly every time you post in here about TLJ I am amazed at how well your view on matters lines up with my own.

I think the post-modern view itself is very relevant to TLJ and the below video does a great job on explaining why. I watched it a few weeks back and was amazed at how much sense this bloke makes and helped me also realise why I really don’t like the new ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ show. Not a Trekkie myself but I do love the original movies (really don’t like the new JJ ones though, the first one was barely acceptable and the rest are garbage) and am quite enjoying my first watch through of The Next Generation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZKlUa7MzQ&t - note: if hearing the term “Mary-Sue” triggers you, maybe give this video a miss 😉

Val

cough Trekker cough 😛

LOL, never understood the whole SW vs STrek thing. You either like something or you don’t, no need to crap on the other fan base just because you don’t identify with them. Funny thing is, I’m very much more SW oriented than STrek but as said, love my original STrek movies and it just so happens that my boss is a big and long time Trekkie and most of my colleagues watch it as well. I’m the odd one out though in that I don’t like STD (Star Trek Discovery) and think it’s lost what made STrek good in it’s own way, almost doing to opposite. The Orville on the other hand while starting out as a parody / humorous take on STrek, is actually much faithful to STrek than the new official series is (or so I’ve heard).

Val

Mrebo said:
A pretty good critical look at Luke’s characterization from someone who really enjoyed the movie. Some good comparisons to the movie “Logan.”

DrDre said:
Yeah, that sums my feelings up very well.

+1

A very well thought out analysis on where they went wrong with Luke’s character.

Matt.F said:

Dre, oh dear. What an awful ad filled bit of clickbait crap!

“Understanding how the new movie went off the rails” Really?!

And then the guy spends the whole article comparing it to Tolkien.

If you really want an insightful deconstruction then listen to the Empire podcast, with Rian Johnson getting much deeper into the decisions, the story and the characters.

If you can get past the initial popup and ignore the few adds as you scroll down (pretty much the majority of sites these days), it is a quality article and articulates very well an opinion and point of view that obviously Dre, myself and others hold on the matters. If you don’t agree with it, fine. That’s got no say on the quality of the piece though.

In regards to listening to RJ try to justify his decisions (as that’s what he’s doing otherwise he wouldn’t feel the need to explain), no thanks. I’ve read enough of his quoted comments in some articles to know that whatever he says on the matters is never going to justify for me the decisions he took with this movie. Many of the comments sound like straight up bullshit anyway, so I’m already not interested in anything else he has to say as I don’t feel I can trust what is coming out of his mouth.

Matt.F said:

[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

If anyone is being aggressive here (and definitely not passively) it is yourself. His comment is true - the article articulates very well the author’s issues with TLJ and the ST in general. It is also respectful in it’s tone. Both of these things are lacking in your initial reply that calls into question Dre’s own quality of posting and by insulting an article that Dre supports the view of, you indirectly insult Dre.

Val

DrDre said:

I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.

Then I read this article:

“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020

I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?

What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.

How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.

Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.

Wow, this is a great article. It makes me angry and sad all over again for what has transpired in TLJ but it is also great being able to read something that so soundly articulates many of the things I find wrong with the movie. Your comments above are also very much on point and a great way to analyse such matters. Nearly every time you post in here about TLJ I am amazed at how well your view on matters lines up with my own.

I think the post-modern view itself is very relevant to TLJ and the below video does a great job on explaining why. I watched it a few weeks back and was amazed at how much sense this bloke makes and helped me also realise why I really don’t like the new ‘Star Trek: Discovery’ show. Not a Trekkie myself but I do love the original movies (really don’t like the new JJ ones though, the first one was barely acceptable and the rest are garbage) and am quite enjoying my first watch through of The Next Generation:

Edit: I’ve been asked to remove the link as apparently it crosses a line that Jay laid down earlier in the thread on political discussions. PM me if you would like to see the video.

Val

CarboniteSolo said:
This Solo trailer could be great, but the film could suck. That’s how marketing works.

This is definitely true for me in regards to TLJ. Trailers had me pretty hopeful and excited to see where the ST went in the second movie, the movie itself though has turned me off new SW forever.

Val

ray_afraid said:

adywan said:

No matter what ending i decide upon for ROTJ:R, the [galaxy] wide celebrations will NOT be included.

This is reason for planet-wide celebration!

I’m already celebrating over it here in Australia 😄

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

This is not the first time you’ve called me out for something I haven’t done. Instead of stooping to your level, this time I’ve just decided to report you.

What a load of bull. There are 3 posts in particular that you made after my own posts that are indirect but distinctively antagonising which I’ve already reported you for. I’m sure this will now be settled via mod PM and hopefully its the end of it.

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

Not only are you taking pot shots at me simply for posting my particular opinion on the movie, they are generally off topic or really only serve to belittle my opinion and usually generate a page or two of other members then following up with further off topic comments. What it leads to is a burying of the discussion I am trying to have on the matter which is not appreciated, especially seeing that I don’t to it to you or other people commenting positively on the movie, instead trying to reasonably relay why I may not agree on a particular view or point being made.

Val

As I said before, feel free to report it.

I will and I have, though not for any of yours currently. I feel you’re the more reasonable out of the two of you and would rather try and settle it via talk. Not going to bother with Dom though, despite asking him to reign it in he couldn’t help himself and had to have another jab which is when the report button was clicked.

Val

Valheru_84 said:

dahmage said:

Oh cool, ignore what Mark Hamill says today, and keep posting what he said yesterday. Cherry picking.

What did he say today? Got a link? I watch a fair few videos (too many according to Frink) and read plenty of articles as I find them but I haven’t seen and heard everything. However whatever he did say, I don’t see how it would nullify what he plainly says here and in one go. The video is not cut together, it’s one full section of an interview.

So I’m still waiting for that link after you accused me of cherry picking? One way or the other would you mind substantiating your claim, otherwise please revoke that accusation.

Val

TV’s Frink said:

Val if you truly feel people are still harassing and attacking you, you should probably just report it. I don’t think it will get you far, since I don’t see it in the slightest, but that’s probably more likely to do something than just complaining about it here.

I did not say anyone was attacking me, but the fact that you and Dominic have to chime in with off topic jabs after each time I post something new in discussing what I don’t like about the movie is starting to wear a bit thin and I do feel harassed so please stop it.

Not only are you taking pot shots at me simply for posting my particular opinion on the movie, they are generally off topic or really only serve to belittle my opinion and usually generate a page or two of other members then following up with further off topic comments. What it leads to is a burying of the discussion I am trying to have on the matter which is not appreciated, especially seeing that I don’t to it to you or other people commenting positively on the movie, instead trying to reasonably relay why I may not agree on a particular view or point being made.

Val

yotsuya said:
Lucas gave us new force powers in nearly every film. In Episode I, Qui-gon and Obi-wan run super fast.

I’m not commenting on the discussion at hand, just simply stating that the force-run ability seen in TPM was nothing new to me when the movie first came out. Having played the PC game ‘Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2’, this was an ability you gained in the game along with force-jump.

That aside, it is shown in both TESB and ROTJ that the force can be used to dramatically increase your athletic abilities and while I can’t think of any clear example of force-run/speed, it is an easy extrapolation to make based on the other force enhanced abilities we do see in the movie. So I don’t see the force-run ability seen in TPM as a new ability, simply one we hadn’t seen yet on screen.

Also when you say in nearly every film, what other new force powers do you refer to in the PT?

.Val

Jedi with a GoPro 1 and 2, pretty awesome!

https://youtu.be/VTmYMpJcwyI

https://youtu.be/brjyUpcC9lA

I’m sure many of the sounds are ripped straight out of the PC game ‘Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight’ as that’s what it makes me think of so much when watching these.

Also, was sure I posted another video the other day that seems to have disappeared but thinking about it, I reckon it may have been classed as a TLJ spoiler so that makes sense 😉

.Val

dahmage said:

Oh cool, ignore what Mark Hamill says today, and keep posting what he said yesterday. Cherry picking.

What did he say today? Got a link? I watch a fair few videos (too many according to Frink) and read plenty of articles as I find them but I haven’t seen and heard everything. However whatever he did say, I don’t see how it would nullify what he plainly says here and in one go. The video is not cut together, it’s one full section of an interview.

Hardcore Legend said:

I will say that I feel like the druids and non-human creatures are way underused/misused in this trilogy.

I thought this was something RO did well, even with a new Droid character.

Maybe now that the trinity are all dead (either on screen or off) they will give Chewbacca a bigger role. Or 3PO/R2 will be given to some of the new characters.

I felt the same, but more so I felt C3PO was especially treated badly. When Poe just outright tells C3PO to shut-up, almost hostily, I almost felt insulted myself with how the character was treated. It was the old “be quiet C3PO, we know and it’s not important right now while serious shit is happening” but it was so harsh and actually disrespectful to C3PO that it actually took me out of the movie and made me feel bad for him 😕

On another note - below is a recent interview with Mark where he further confirms in plain speak, that there was never any grand vision or overarching plan to the ST and the way he explains it, it was nearly a race as to who would get their script in first and that they’re just running up to the next director and handing the baton over (except in the case of TLJ Rian just tosses it over his shoulder and goes in a different direction altogether). Mark also again demonstrates how even he is going “wtf is going on, this movie doesn’t work with the other”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLrzBLH5I2s

I agree with one of the commenters in that many of the interviews I’ve watched of Mark, he often walks a fine line between promoting the film and absolutely shitting on it and should actually be commended for cleverly telling people how badly written his character is without openly saying it and drawing the wrath of Disney and obviously his contract.

.Val

DeckardKatarn said:

Hal 9000 said:

Maybe they play the trailer before the movie itself.

“Bold. Stylistic.”

“Subverting expectations.”

Fkn oath!

😉

DominicCobb said:

Star Wars movie is like other Star Wars movie in superficial ways… tricky RJ thought he could get away with it, but he was sorely mistaken! True Fans know that the only way to judge a movie is on a scale of perceived originality.

You might want to keep your snide, rude side in check otherwise I’ll have to start reporting you for being a dick to other members (me in this case) like we both promised each other 😉

MaestroDavros said:

I often wonder about when an idea or story beat goes from being similar to something done decades earlier, to when it becomes directly appropriated from it. In the case of ROTJ I would argue the similarities are more superficial, since there are shared locations like Tatooine and a Death Star, but what they do with those places is entirely different.

Contrast this to the sequel trilogy, which quite clearly contains many scenes that are similar not only on a superficial level, but directly reference earlier plot points, sometimes with similar events and even dialogue, all to elicit an emotional reaction like: “OMG DO YOU REMEMBER THAT SCENE WHERE ___ HAPPENED IN EPISODE ___?! THEY JUST REFERENCED IT OMG!! OMG!!!” Meanwhile I’m like “I’d rather watch the original version of that scene instead of someone else’s version that doesn’t do anything new”. And that’s just it: I want them to do something different that doesn’t rely on events that already happened. To do otherwise is IMO a poor attempt at fan-service, and just incredibly lazy writing in general. I get it’s hard to come up with ideas in Hollywood films that differ from something else done 40-50 years ago, but please don’t also bring attention and make a big deal of the fact that you are “borrowing” the idea in the first place.

Star Wars isn’t the only franchise with this problem BTW.

Exactly. Thank you for articulating just what my problem is with these movies in regards to constantly just recycling things straight out of the OT. TFA did it in spades but I accepted it on the premise of re-establishing a franchise, setting the tone and playing it safe while Disney was testing the waters with their newly purchased franchise that they want to make a lot of money with. TFA was a decent enough movie anyway with all of the recycled beats aside that I generally enjoyed despite the issues I did have with the movie.

This of course was all on the premise that TLJ didn’t then also do the same thing. This was their chance to take original and new characters and go in a completely new direction and this was a common expectation of the movie which is why one would almost think that RJ has specifically done the opposite, borrowing and mashing together as many pieces of the OT as he could as another way to go against the grain of what was reasonably expected of this movie.

So now that we’ve had ANH 2.0 and TESB/ROTJ remix 2018, what are they going to rely on for Ep9? Or will they finally tread new ground? With what TLJ left on the table though, it feels like it’s leading into ANH 3.0 or ANH/TESB remix 2020…I’ll never know though because as stated, Ep8 is the end of the SW road for me.

canofhumdingers said:

So I just noticed on my second viewing that the falcon gets its (new rectangular) radar dish knocked off while flying through the crystal cave (ROTJ Rehash!! ;-P ).

LOL, the recycling IS getting ridiculous. I don’t even remember that detail but it just lends extra weight to exactly what I am saying.

yotsuya said:

Valheru_84 said:

Having seen TLJ though, I now understand it could never be what I was expecting and that’s because RJ has a compulsion with this movie to do the exact opposite of what is expected. It was a pretty common belief that everyone was expecting TLJ to be the movie that was going to be different, darker and setting new ground after the safe bet that TFA was. So in order to do the opposite he just made another rehash movie (simply disguised a bit better by jumbling it up a bit with the edges blurred) which is what everyone didn’t want. Even the darker themes are subverted by the constant stream of tone killing humour. This movie is literally RJ giving the middle finger to a fandom and it’s expectations, making writing choices solely directed at doing the opposite of what the fandom wanted or expected, no matter the cost to the story and cohesion to the overarching saga and previously established characters and lore.

.Val

This attitude wearies me. Just because you didn’t like it and it wasn’t what you wanted to see does not mean RJ is giving fandom the middle finger. Some fans hate it. I get it. Some fans loved it. You didn’t like the humor. Some people did. You didn’t like how your expectations were turned. Some people loved how it made the story fresh and different. You didn’t like the homages to the past, some loved them. There are obviously very different opinions. But constantly saying that RJ or Disney set out to ruin the franchise is just so… Use your heads. You are part of the billion dollar package that Disney wants on board to buy tickets and merchandise. But they can’t tell the same old story. Heck, they can’t even seem to use anything similar. It sets up a catch-22. Sometimes there is no pleasing people. But at least come up with something that actually makes sense. RJ, Kennedy, or Disney trying to deliberately alienate fans makes no logical sense. It is a tired refrain that has been sung since GL sold to Disney.

If you don’t agree with it, that’s fine. Don’t tell me to adjust my opinion though because you’re tired of hearing it from me and other people with the same feelings.

It’s not that I didn’t get to see what I wanted to see, I went in not really expecting all that much outside of what was setup by TFA and that it would be a darker chapter of the trilogy much like TESB was which is a pretty standard trilogy trope to expect, which it did except for all the tone killing humour that also meant…that it didn’t really. I was actually properly excited to see where TLJ went, I’d watched all the trailers multiple times but not looked into it any further than that (not wanting to spoil anything). I did notice the walkers on a white planet and knew that would be a call back to the battle of Hoth but did not think for a second that nearly the whole movie would be OT re-used and recycled. But everything else looked properly interesting and potentially awesome from the trailer perspective.

What I certainly didn’t expect though was to watch everything I never could have imagined would come to pass in a SW movie and that every expectation built by TFA and even RJ himself was summarily turned on it’s head again and again. Like WTF am I watching? Subversion 101 on how to shock your audience simply because it doesn’t make fucking sense? Because as a self proclaimed SW fan, RJ knows exactly what SW fans would not expect and so he does that just for sensational shock value? What a joke of a film. The entire movie is one sarcastic middle finger to people that feel and understand SW the way I do. He/Disney trod all over what many people loved about SW and then trolled them on it.

I think Disney know exactly what they are doing. They’re riding out the pain of damaging parts of the franchise’s existing fan base in order to reach for what they see is a much broader common audience to make more money and secure future large audiences. Did they have to do it in Ep8 of a 9 part saga though? They’ve just given RJ a whole trilogy to himself that’s completely separate from the main saga and the Jedi/Sith, Rebellion/Empire, Skywalker narrative - the perfect place to explore and take new stories in completely new and fresh directions.

DominicCobb said:
Incorrect yotsuya. If I didn’t like a movie it means the creators hate me. This is simple stuff, don’t get why it’s so hard for you to understand.

Again, can you please reign yourself in. Between you and Frink I’m starting to feel a wee bit harassed…

Frank your Majesty said:

The Ring Theory looks for things that are vaguely similar and tries to describe them in the most crude way, leaving out important details, to make two very different scenes look alike, and putting importance on small details that are smimilar, but insignificant in the movies itself. This rehash argument is just the Ring theory with a twist. Instead of using these constructed superficial “similarities” to show how great the prequels are, they are now a sign of how bad the new movies are. Why can’t angry fans come up with something new? Do they want to alienate other fans? Is Disney paying them as part of their great plan to soft-reboot the whole world?

Thank you Frank “not Frink’s wife” your Majesty (honestly sorry about that, not exactly sure how I came to that conclusion), but this has nothing to do with the Ring Theory that does try to twist things in favour of the PT. The plain similarities and recycling are clearly there in TLJ if you simply look for them.

The talk of being paid of just sounds like more denial tactics such as the whole Rotten Tomatoes audience score rumour. It’s a pretty low insult really and I’d appreciate it not being used again.

Anchorhead said:
By all means feel free to vent, deconstruct, debate, rage, etc. I do it occasionally myself. It’s what makes this forum work. However, maybe give some serious thought to focusing on what you like. The stuff we don’t like about the franchise isn’t going away.

This is what I will be doing once I’m all talked out. I’m not one to continue investing energy into something that’s simply wasting it when it could be put to better uses. For now, it’s helping me to talk about it. Also, my best mate has finally seen the movie so I actually have someone to talk to in person now about it, so I’ll probably peter out in the near future with only the occasional comment here and there from that point onward 😉

From an initial online chat, he said he liked it but was also disappointed and was conflicted on many matters that would take him a few days to let it all sink in and settle. He did also say and I’m quoting here - “empire strikes back + return of the jedi rolled into one haha”

.Val

PS. Sorry for such a lengthy post, but there were many other posts I wanted to get back to that I couldn’t reply to at the time and so I’ve just done it all in one hit. I’m pretty much caught up with the thread again thankfully.

Collipso said:
That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn was he didn’t care it was a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected because Rose him, seeing as the intention is what matters here.

But I think that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and destroyed the weapon and saved everyone/bought them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

ExNihilo said:
I can agree with this assessment

Yeah same. Spot on Collipso, at least for my take on it anyway 😉

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

Funny how everyone who dislikes the movie seems to have gone to a showing where the jokes weren’t laughed at. All the jokes (even the dumb ones) were huge hits with the audience both times I saw it.

My theatre was a mixture. Had some people giggling their heads off nearly the entire time, other people laughing during the jokes but other sections of the theatre dead quiet. Myself, I was holding my head in my hands by the time we got to Canto Bight…

I think two jokes / skits resonated with me enough for a muted chuckle but that was it. The thing is, the OT never had me roaring with laughter at any point but when I did laugh quietly or inside my head, it was genuine amusement while still taking in the serious story unfolding. As Mrebo said, the humour was understated and well-incorporated, even in ROTJ. No references that pulled you out of the movie or made you think “this is not SW”.

.Val