rcb said:why do you not like stehphen king! both his books and movies were awsome! again, the only book i could understand was the hobbit from tolkien.
King's writing is mediocre and overrated. The Hobbit is the least of Tolkien's Middle Earth books.
rcb said:Vaderisnothayden said:Johnboy3434 said:Whoa, wait a minute! It's GL's fault that fans of his work are so insane?
We were driven insane by watching CGI Jabba, Jabba's palace SE musical number, invasive ROTJ SE celebration scenes (with added Gungan) and Hayden Skywalker. ;)
what the hell you talking about. CGi jabba, the musical number and the ROTJ celebration was definitly nessecary. and haydens goast was one of the best add ins GL did.
CGI Jabba was utterly unnecessary. That whole scene was unnecessary, so stuffing in a cgi Jabba that didn't fit with the film's style or with previously existing portrayals of Jabba was totally unnecessary. The musical number? How in god's name was that necessary? There was zero need for it. Heck, there wasn't even any need for the original scene, except that it was part of the original film, so expanding it with nonsense and cartoonish creatures was totally unnecessary, not to mention serious vandalism. The ROTJ SE celebration was so damned unnecessary that nobody felt its lack in all those years after ROTJ came out before the SE came out. It broke up the flow and feel of that part of ROTJ, which was emotionally important stuff. Hayden's ghost?! Sebastian Shaw did a great job on ROTJ and his sympathetic portrayal was emotionally important to the end of the trilogy. That final image of him redeemed is crucial. It was an abomination to replace him with Hayden Christensen, who has nothing to do with Anakin Skywalker in any of the valid Star Wars films. And Hayden Christensen's performance in the prequels was the worst thing about the prequels, so putting him in the original trilogy was an incredible insult. Not to mention an insult to Sebastian Shaw. All those things are stand out extreme cases of vandalizing the original trilogy, abominations that would make any good Star Wars fan want to vomit.
negative1 said:Vaderisnothayden said:Johnboy3434 said:Whoa, wait a minute! It's GL's fault that fans of his work are so insane?
We were driven insane by watching CGI Jabba, Jabba's palace SE musical number, invasive ROTJ SE celebration scenes (with added Gungan) and Hayden Skywalker. ;)
and the original jabba, and musical number, and the final Ewok song were any better?
i don't think so, they were all equally cheesy...
later
-1
The original Jabba was a spectacular work of art. So convincing and so full of personality. The original musical number wasn't my favorite part of the film, but it wasn't drastically at odds with the film like the SE version was. The final Ewok song fit in with the fim, unlike the added celebrations on various worlds, which broke up the feel and flow of that part of the movie. Rightful parts of the film versus additions that didn't fit and screwed things up.
caligulathegod said:
Second biggest was the mention of Luke and the Princess being twins at one point in the development. Now obviously, it's not a direct line concept to Return of the Jedi's revelation. It's just another developmental element that was in his notebooks that reappeared when he needed a story point. There's plenty of cites in the book that he never actually planned them to be siblings in the final concept as he originally wanted Luke and Leia to end up together and Han to go away. It just never worked in the eventual storyline of Luke becoming a Jedi so Han got the girl.
Hold on, Luke becoming a Jedi meant he couldn't "get the girl"? So Lucas had the celibacy thing as a definite back then?
Also, can anybody tell me the gist of what the book reveals about the contents of the Journal of the Whills? Basically how do Lucas's claims of having the prequels story in the journal hold up against what the book says?
(Just to make sure I'm getting things right here, the journal Lucas was suposed to have had the story of everything including the prequels in since way back, written during the writing of the first film = The Journal of the Whills?)
Love the thread title. :)
I too have found the official site's searches a pain in the ass.
lordjedi said:No director in their right mind would take a freaking laserdisc master from 1993, throw it on a DVD, and sell it in 2006. And there's the problem. George Lucas is not in his right mind. Not anymore.
We didn't f'up a damn thing. Lucas is f'ing things up just fine on his own.
Rotfl!
CO said:Lucas can now count on the PT fanbase that made his Clone Wars movie such a hit only grossing 25 million and falling out of theaters within a month. I know I'll wait for the OOT George, but I honestly don't care about the other stuff.
Hey, The Clone Wars did badly? Cool! I wonder if the modern so-called-Star-Wars fad (created by the prequels) is dying down. He has that live action series planned for next year and I read they want to expand it into multiple live action series. We'll see how that does, but I can bet you it'll be crap anyways.
It does look like they did make the GOUT a limited edition release with added SE because they got the idea from the petition. But laserdisc 93 was all their own idea. I'm just worried Georgie can now tell himself "Those ungrateful fans, I gave them just what they asked for and they threw it back in my face. I won't give them anything else." Still, the GOUT is being rereleased as non-limited and that's a teensy bit of progress, so maybe we proved grateful enough to satisfy his bank account. Maybe there's hope for the future.
Btw, can anybody tell me what the letters in GOUT stand for?
Mielr said:There was a change of a background matte painting- the scene where the truck goes over the cliff. Someone posted comparison shots.....somewhere. LOL!.
Yeah, a few pages back, thanks. So nobody knows of any other changes?
Ok, not good and a bit ominous, but hardly CGI Jabba and ROTJ Hayden. I really hope they don't replace all Sean Connery's appearances with Hayden footage to show Jones senior's true uncorrupted self. Or edit Jar Jar into the end of Raiders.
zombie84 said:Because they've been referred to in that time since. Even still, it makes absolutely no sense why they would destroy some of the highest-quality material for the film--the SE is actually made up of parts of the IN.
I think this whole thing stems from a confusion of a few sources:
1) Lucas says the original print doesn't exist anymore. He's talking about the O-neg. And he's right--its been re-edited into the SE. You'd have to go back to the trim bins and put the original pieces back in.
2)Lucasfilm claims that the GOUT is the highest quality material. This is, frankly, marketing bullshit; its the best pre-existing video transfer, is what they perhaps mean.
3)Lucasfilm indeed took OOT prints out of circulation. Were some of them destroyed? Maybe. After all, what is the point in having 100 degrading, scratchy release-prints of a film that will never supposedly be screened again. They almost assuredly kept a master release print, I'm sure, as this is standard practice, and no doubt a few exist in the Fox vaults too. However, these would not really be used as sources for future releases in the first place so it really doesn't matter.
Ok. But I thought Lucasfilm said the existing prints were in bad condition or that they went looking for stuff to make the GOUT out of and found nothing?
And is Harris right that if they don't restore the OOT now the prints will deteriorate that they won't be restorable (if that's the gist of what he said)? That it'll be too late in the future?
(Appreciating the info btw.)
zombie84 said:1) Lucas says the original print doesn't exist anymore. He's talking about the O-neg. And he's right--its been re-edited into the SE. You'd have to go back to the trim bins and put the original pieces back in.
What if he didn't keep what cut out?
TheDoctor1987 said:I have been thinking lately on how to watch the Star Wars saga i have all six films on dvd with both special editions and theatrical editions. Now do you watch them in order through episodes 1 - 6 or do you watch the Original Trilogy then Prequel Trilogy or do you just not watch the Prequel Trilogy at all. Which is your method to watching the Star Wars Saga?
Watch the original trilogy in original form through in order. If you want real Star Wars that's all you've got. But if you want inferior Star Wars spinoff you can watch The Phantom Menace. And if you want to make yourself sick you can watch Clones or Revenge, in any order you like. But whatever you do, don't watch the OT right after watching the PT, because that's Lucas's stupid "vision", which should never be indulged. The OT was NOT made to follow the PT and any claims to the contrary are just nonsense. A quick look at the structure of the OT is enough to prove it wasn't built to follow the films that came out in 99, 2002 and 2005.
Oh and the 1997 and 2004 versions are solely useful for studying how Lucas screwed up Star Wars. So it's best to watch whatever scene of them you want to study, not watch a whole SE film through like it was a legitimate version of the film.
The last two prequels are especially useful if you've swallowed something poisonous and you want to bring it back up. Just watch "Anakin" act like a pain the butt and Yoda be a pompous wanker and you'll be coughing up the toxic substance in no time. But be warned, watching the Anakin/Padme romance has been known to cause people to vomit forth a year's worth of meals. Use at your own risk.
zombie84 said:That report is heresay. Its unfounded and unsubstantiated, aside from the fact that 1) it would be pretty hard to do, 2) there ARE still prints of the OOT out there, and 3) LFL and Fox still have master prints such as IPs, INs, seperation masters and the dye-transfer print used as a color -reference for the SE itself. The whole "Lucas destroyed them all" thing is just a rumor started by panicy fans. Its possible that LFL might have destroyed a few excessive copies they had (ie release prints) to clear up some space, but LFL would not have literally destroyed every copy.
But how do we know that Lucasfilm and Fox have "master prints such as IPs, INs, seperation masters and the dye-transfer print used as a color -reference for the SE itself"?
Thanks for the info, btw. :)
I'm praying there's prints out there that can be used to preserve the film and put it on future formats for generations, but I don't have a clue. The page I linked to said that prints survive in private possession and in film archives.
C3PX said:I have always felt that Stephen King is a bit of a prat. His works are way over rated, it pains me how many serious literature teachers consider this guy the next Shakespeare. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'd hesitate to call anyones opinion stupid just because I disagreed with it. Many people feel Lord of the Rings is a masterpiece and that the Silmarillion is just a shadow of what it was meant to be, an unfinished work never finished by its creator. I believe had the Silmarillion been finished by Tolkien and published while the author still lived, it would not recieve such harsh criticism.
I certainly think King's work is overrated. And I sure don't like to hear that he ran down the greatest fantasy fiction book (I wouldn't call it a novel precisely) of all time. Seriously, if people don't respect the Silmarillion then that's sad, tragic even. It's a beautiful noble work that truly captures the spirit of the ancient literature and heroics Tolkien was inspired by. It far more successfuly captures that spirit than LOTR, let alone the Hobbit. It's also a far more daring work, because it dares to stray farther from the narrative conventions of more modern literature. which is undoubtably why some people fail to appreciate it. You have to be flexible to appreciate the Silmarillion, because it doesn't play by the rules of modern fiction. I think you need to appreciate the Simarillion to understand Tolkien's work. After all, to him it was the most important of his works. LOTR and The Hobbit are Tolkien Lite. The Silmarillion is the real thing.
Baronlando said:The deliberate destruction of ALL that stuff (that's endless feet of film all over the world- including stealing the archive print from the Library of Congress, Ocean's 11 style!) would be pretty hard to do.
Whatever the true number of people who really want the original version might be, it can't be any less than there was for Close Encounters
Well, the page I linked to didn't say he destroyed all the prints in the world or anything from the library of congress, just that he recalled and destroyed all the release prints he could and that he said in 1997 that the original theatrical versions no longer existed. I don't have a clue about the accuracy of that account, but I've seen stuff said (in other places than that page) that would fit with that.
zombie84 said:The OOT prints exist! Of course they do! LFL did not destroy them. All Lucas said was that the original negative no longers exists. Because it doesn't--it wasn't physically destroyed, as in chucked in a furnace, it was just re-edited, so the negative now is in the edit configuration of the 1997 SE, thus technically you cannot go and make a new print without doing some work to put the O-neg back together the way it was. In any case, they have multiple Interpositives and Internegatives, plus reference prints, and Lucas himself owns a dye-transfer Technicolor print, which he lent to YCM labs as a reference for color since dye-transfer does not fade.
Hold on. See here: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa120.html#aswrant
On that page they say Lucas recalled and destroyed lots of prints back when he was making the SE. So maybe they don't have prints now, maybe they did destroy all the ones they have. Interpositives, internegatives, reference prints, the dye-transfer technicolor print you mentioned... maybe it's all gone. I know people keep mentioning Empire of Dreams as proof that he has prints hidden away, but isn't that just a few shots? All that would prove is that he has a few shots, not a full print.
Gaffer Tape said:Raiders paints away the track the boulder rolls on in the opening sequence. And it digitally removes the reflection of the cobra on the glass separating Harrison from the snake, which is really funny because in the interviews on the 4th disc, Harrison mentions this minor gaffe, but the change itself is never mentioned. If you don't know any better, you'll look at the scene and wonder why you can't find it.
In an overall sense, they're extremely minor clean-ups, but they still annoy me because it was completely unnecessary.
Thanks. :) And the new change is in the tv HD version? How much change is in the new change?
Mielr said:Well, you could start with all the people who signed the petition here- and there are many others out there. I think it's safe to say that everyone who saw SW and the 2 sequels in their initial runs would qualify.
Did a lot of people sign the petition here?
I'm not sure everyone who saw the originals back before the SE came out are OOT fans. I think I saw somebody who actually posted here (and caused a stir) who seemed to be an older fan but was into the SE. I'm sure people like that must exist. And among people who prefer the OOT, how many would feel strongly about it, I wonder.
Chewy72 said:Vaderisnothayden said:CO said:sent me a PM, "Nobody cares about the OOT anymore, the saga is 6 movies, as you will never post here again."
Question, do we have any idea how numerous OOT fans are? I don't mean actual figures. I mean is there a lot of us? How numerous are we compared to TFN-type fans? How numerous are we compared to older fans who've accepted the SE and don't care about the OOT?
I look at it this way, what do the majority of SW fans prefer? I still say the OOT. I have many friends who bought the '04 SE DVD because it was the OT in any form, and they all say to me, "I just put up with the changes, what can you do?" You'll never going to know on the internet, because it is only a small fraction of the SW fanbase, so what we see posted everyday on SW websites really can't be judged as anything specific.
The bottom line is if you ask the majority of SW fans these questions:
1. Do you want Han shooting first reinstated?2. Do you want the Jabba scene in Star Wars taken out?
3. Do you want Jedi Rock taken out in ROTJ for the old song?
4. Do you want the original ending with old man Anakin rather then Hayden?5. Do you want Vaders line in ESB, "Bring my shuttle!" back
The majority of SW fans would say yes to all these questions, so they are the major changes to the OOT that everyone hates. Now if Lucas did some special effect changes, and didn't take any actors out I believe the OOT vs SE wouldn't exist.
We'll never know, but if Lucas put out on BluRay the OOT in one boxset and the SE in another boxset in the same quality, I still say the OOT would sell more, because the PT/SE fanbase is still a niche fanbase compared to the OOT fans who really never got into the PT movies and dont' have much of a voice anymore, as they probably moved on sometime after ROTJ.
How much of a minority are we on the net?
And are you sure the internet fandom is only a small part of the star Wars buying public (people who'd buy the dvds or whatever)? Because it's very easy for people to find their way onto sites and forums these days.
the PT/SE fanbase is still a niche fanbase compared to the OOT fans who really never got into the PT movies and dont' have much of a voice anymore, as they probably moved on sometime after ROTJ.
But is a fanbase that doesn't have much of a voice anymore going to buy Star Wars on blu-ray or HD or dvd or whatever? If many of us have moved on and aren't on the net, are they going to care enough about OOT vs SE to search out OOT dvds? Are enough of these silent fans really going to shell out money enough that they would make a serious difference in dvd sales?
If we're just a minority voice on the net, do we matter in terms of what can have an effect on Lucas's bank account?
What sort of alterations?
God, this is like a disease. Can't they understand the idea of people wanting a classic just the way it was?
Btw, can you use the f word on this site? Some forums are real strict against swearing. How much swearing can you do here? (I'm really feeling like swearing right now.)
CO said:sent me a PM, "Nobody cares about the OOT anymore, the saga is 6 movies, as you will never post here again."
Question, do we have any idea how numerous OOT fans are? I don't mean actual figures. I mean is there a lot of us? How numerous are we compared to TFN-type fans? How numerous are we compared to older fans who've accepted the SE and don't care about the OOT?
And btw, to hell with the "saga" and six movies and Lucas's bloody "vision". Star Wars is not what resides in Lucas's head, it's what made it onto the screen back in the 70s and 80s. I couldn't care less about the "saga" of the force being balanced with the aid of sub-par movies that didn't need to be made. Star Wars is NOT the story of Darth Vader. It's the story of Luke Skywalker, and Leia and Han -Vader's just the bad guy who gets a handy redemption at the end.
I'm just horrified they're messing with the old Indy films. Here we go again...
But only to Raiders on tv so far?
Gaffer Tape said:Okay, "flea," that helps. Are you talking about those weird creatures with the tiny heads and giant rear ends that throws Anakin off and tramples him, momentarily scaring Padme but ultimately ending in a fun little roll in the grass?
Oh that. That was in with all the revolting Anakin-Padme romance crap. Much vomiting there, definitely. I thought you guys were talking about real fleas.
CS said:But Lucas made something totally awful.
EWOKS - the television series.
I'm not sure that was really Lucas. I don't know if he was much involved in that. It was made by the same company who did some of the Care Bears series, so I'm not surprised it turned out very Care Bears. It was pure torture.
C3PX said:I also like how you act like Tin Tin being CG is the end of the world, but the Clone Wars being CG is an amazing and very mature show for adults. If Clone Wars can be so great in all its wooden CG glory, why can't CG Tin Tin even be given a chance?
Good lord, somebody thinks The Clone Wars is adult and mature? Screen Star Wars doesn't do adult and mature any more. Now we've got a silly animated show trying to pass itself off as real Star Wars, which is pretty damn presumptuous. But then the prequels were pretty much animated too.
Gaffer Tape said:Well, I think he's joking, but I consider the unnecessary alterations they already made to Raiders as a "special edition."
What alterations did they make to Raiders?
skyjedi2005 said:The indiana jones special editions trilogy when released will have bad and fakely added cgi and walkie talkies instead of guns.
Um, I take it you're joking and there's no special edition? Or is there?
negative1 said:and thankfully this movie wiped out the horrible memories
of temple of doom, and the last crusade, so i can finally
forget that those existed..
Temple of Doom was a good film. Last Crusade is THE Indy film, the best by a long ways. So much fun and a great actor pairing.
TheBoost said:Vaderisnothayden said:rcb said:whether you like george or not, he knows SW best.
No, I think the special editions and the prequels prove that that is emphatically not the case.
Or perhaps "If you're willing to kill a bunch of kids rather that let totally natural things like death happen, you really need to work on letting go."
Love didn't drive Anakin to kill those kids. Possessivness, greed, fear, and anger did. You know... the Dark Side.
Yeah, love did make him to kill those kids. Love for Padme made him join the dark side to save her and that led to him killing the kids. Message of the film: Love makes you kill kiddies. Screwed up film.
If he did it for love he would have been willing to go away with Padme when she asked, or at least no Force-choke her out at the smallest provacation. But he gave into fear (of losing her) which led to anger and suffering. He started down the path of the darkside and dominate his destiny it did. Love didn't matter to him once he gave into the darkside, only power.
Love didn't lead to any of those things. Greed and possesiveness and desire for control did. Do you turn on "Cops" and see some wife-beater and say "Love leads to wifebeating, what a screwed up message."
Presumably those Cops episodes don't tell you that love leads to wifebeating, but ROTS does show you that love leads to the dark side. He is attached to Padme and loves her, this causes him to fear losing her (when his visions show death for her) and to want to save her, and this leads to the dark side. There's a clear line of cause and effect from love to evil. We're given the impression that Anakin should in fact have not cared whether Padme died or not, which would obviously have required him not to love her. Love led to the dark side. And just to rub in the point, we're reminded that the Sith specialize in passion. Passion is the dark side. Which to me sounds like saying human feeling and emotion is bad. Anakin shouldn't feel, then he'd be fine and never turn evil. He shouldn't feel about his wife dying. But feeling is what makes us human. Passion is what makes us human. The film strikes me as condemning human feeling and saying we shouldn't feel or love.
If he did it for love he would have been willing to go away with Padme when she asked, or at least no Force-choke her out at the smallest provacation. But he gave into fear (of losing her) which led to anger and suffering. He started down the path of the darkside and dominate his destiny it did. Love didn't matter to him once he gave into the darkside, only power.
Just because his love was twisted once he turned to the dark side, and mixed with suspicion and anger and lust for power, doesn't mean love didn't lead him to the dark side in the first place. His number one reason for turning dark was that he loved Padme and wanted to prevent her death,. Love led to the dark side, to evil, to slaughtering kids. And there's holy Yoda telling us it's better not to care if our loved ones die.
Octorox said:Yeah but how could his hair get cooked and not his eyebrows? It makes absolutely no sense...
So what. The old movies shouldn't be altered to suit the inferior new ones. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense. The old movies don't exist to serve the new ones. That scene worked the way it was. It was a cool scene in a great film and shouldn't have been changed to suit a crap scene in a worthless film made over twenty years later. If Lucas was worried about them fitting together he should have found a way to make the new film fit in with the old one, not make the old film fit in with the new one. The eyebrows are crucial for the emotional effect of that scene and the emotional effect of the scene is crucial for the whole trilogy. As is Shaw's final appearance as a force ghost. With those two alterations Lucas stabbed his saga in the heart and insulted an actor who turned in fine work.