Vaderisnothayden

C3PX said:

It is not bullshit to claim the PT was made to be seen after the original trilogy. It is pure fact that they were made to be seen before the original trilogy.

The PT is made so it works (as much as it works at all) seen AFTER the original trilogy. The OT does not work so well seen after the PT and was NOT made to be seen after the PT (despite claims to the contrary). The PT is very much made to be appreciated with full knowledge of the OT and thus seen after the OT. Despite claims to the contrary.

C3PX said:

George, who was the primary creative force behind the PT claims that they are meant to be seen before the others. His intention was to make them all fit together as a series to be seen chronologically.  

 

I'm not in the habit of believing George Lucas. It's possible he has convinced himself that the PT was made to be seen before the OT, but what he actually made is a trilogy designed to be seen after the OT. And the OT was certainly not designed to be seen after the PT, let alone THAT PT.

C3PX said:

miker71 said:

 It was quite pleasing to see stuff from the original WEG Star Wars sourcebooks (Original, Rebel, Imperial) turn up in the prequels, much more pleasing than Chewie and Yoda being mates and the Boba/Jango/clone/stormtrooper thing.

 

You found the Yoda/Chewie relationship and the Boba/Jango/Clone/Stormtrooper thing pleasing?

Ditto on that expression of surprise.

And it's bullshit the claim that the OT was made to be seen after the PT. Even a cursory look at the OT's structure shows that it was made to stand by itself and not supposed to be seen after the PT. For one thing, the PT blows all its secrets (the OT could be said to blow some of the PT's secrets, but the secrecy of those things isn't half so important to the PT -in fact you could say the PT is designed to be seen after the OT). And the PT which was made is a distinctly different story from whatever Lucas envisioned when he was making the OT. So no way is the OT designed to be seen after those films that came out in 99, 2002 and 2005. The myth that it's one big film going from I to VI is just that, a myth. A revisionist Lucas myth.

2008: The animated movie and TV show test whether the audience will accept something new.

It's not a question of whether the audience will accept something new. It's a question of whether the audience wants to accept animated stuff as canon Star wars.

1999: A prequel trilogy debuts to unmeetable expectations.

I question whether the expectations were really unmeetable. I think it's more a case of they just didn't try to meet them.

1996: Steve Perry's Shadows of the Empire is published; finally we know Vader's thoughts, and a character tries to get Leia to disrobe.

You mean we know what some EU writer puts forward as being Vader's thoughts. I wouldn't say that really counts as knowing Vader's thoughts.

Gaffer Tape said:

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little hearing the prequels be referred to as "the first three films."

Yeah, I know what you mean. That gets me seriously angry, thinking about it. The first three films my arse hole. Revisionist nonsense.

Gaffer Tape said:

Lucas in 2010:  It was my original vision to give Jabba the Hutt fingers, but that had only been possible with puppets, and I don't like puppets.  So it was my original vision to have a computer generated Jabba that had fingers.  Until now that wasn't possible, but with my brand spankin' new versions of the films, Jabba not only has fingers... he has spirit fingers!  I felt it was important that Jabba wiggle his fingers as much as possible.  It's indicative of my strong desire to have him have fingers!  I felt that I could simply go in the direction of giving him regular fingers, but that wouldn't be worth it to the fans... the fans who have waited six years for a new version of Star Wars.  They needed to see the kind of effort we put forth in these corrections.  I know they'll be excited about these fingers.  They wave, they curl, they give the peace sign.  He even gives a big thumbs up when Han steps on his tail.  It's a very whimisical moment.  The kids'll love it.

::shudder:: You can just imagine it. God, what's that guy going to do to Star Wars next?

C3PX said:

Also, you'd have learned that there are only a handful of systems in the galaxy, but the Empire adds a bunch of fake systems to the star maps in order to make it look like the Empire is larger than it actually is.

Um, that's a joke, right?

Erikstormtrooper said:

Yes. I was joking. I made that up.

But the franchise must be in a pretty sad state if y'all thought that might be true.

Well it is in a pretty sad state.

Re the comparision of different Jabba's up above, the 97 version looks like a cartoon and the 2004 version looks dead. The TPM version isn't too impressive either. It's like there's no effort being made to make Jabba look like Jabba.

Scruffy said:

There's nothing silly or cutesy about his appearance--at least, no sillier than he was in RotJ. It's simply a slightly different appearance, due to the limitations placed upon and inherent to the CGI artists of the time. Perhaps your impression of his personality is based more on his mood than his appearance? Like all creditors and collection agencies, he is relatively friendly the first time he calls to collect--but he means business, and will freeze you in carbonate (or do worse to your credit score) if you don't pay up.

There most definitely is something silly or cutesey about his appearance. He looks like a cartoon, with those cutesey big vulnerable eyes. Are you sure you're thinking of the 1997 Jabba and not the 2004 version? In 1997 the animation cutesifies him and plays him for laughs. In ROTJ he wasn't silly at all.

It is not a slightly different appearance. It's a massively different appearance.

Nor is it due to the limits of cgi at the time. The limits of cgi didn't make it necessary to make his eyes big comical-cutesey-vulnerable things or make him come off cutesey-comical in general. That was a choice they made. They could have tried to make him faithful to the ROTJ Jabba. Instead they chose to go a totally different direction.

My impression of his personality is based on everything in the portrayal and his appearance is a big part of that. As for his different mood, different mood doesn't excuse a totally different personality. Even in a good mood ROTJ Jabba would have been menacing. 1997 ANH Jabba couldn't scare a toddler if he tried.

Scruffy said:

I never really minded the fact that Jabba in ANH:SE looked different than he did in RotJ. There are a few ways to rationalize it--Dark Horse did a Jabba miniseries in which he eats several people, sure to put on the pounds--but in the end, it's just a special effect in service of the story. No more or less suspension of disbelief is required than for any other questionable special effect. The change in Jabba's appearance is no more jarring than the change in the Emperor's.

I agree that the scene adds nothing to the movie, and it ruins the beat when the Falcon is properly introduced with a minor swell in the score and an appropriate exclamation from Luke. That is why it belongs in a special edition, and not the standard edition.

Dark Horse's comics series takes place before ANH, so it doesn't account for the difference between ANH and ROTJ Jabbas. And Jabba was a lot more than just different in size. They gave him an appearance that totally changed his personality, from sinister and clever to silly and cutesy. It wasn't just a bad special effect. A special effect that doesn't work is presumably at least intended to work, but with Jabba there was clearly no intention of making it consistent with the ROTJ Jabba, so the scene screams out contempt for what had been previously established in the films and thus for the old films as a whole.

TheHelmetDork said:

Grievous was pretty much wasted, I thought.

There seems to be no logical explanation for Yoda and Chewie knowing eachother...

But they should have had Palpatine act a bit more mature.

After he struck Yoda down at the beginning of their battle, he stood there as if he was laughing like some bratty little kid. I now laugh at that scene because it looks so screwed up.

The portrayal of Palpatine from his showdown with Windu onwards was awful. Overdone painfully. The Emperor in ROTJ was over the top, but in a way that worked. ROTS's equivalent didn't work. Painful hamming, awful makeup, ruined character. He was so fucking annoying too. The Yoda-Palpatine fight scene was thoroughly lame all around. And it was shown simultaneously with the awful Mustafar showdown, so we got a double dose of awfulness. Complete with extra-pompous music. Terrible filmmaking. So much work was put into that Mustafar scene and it was built up so big and it was totally uninvolving bullcrap. The worst part was probably Anakin ranting, which came of like a pissed off two-year-old trying to do Bad.

Why? Because I have an opinion you don't agree with?

negative1 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

bkev said:

yea, that whole "ZOMG SPACE IMPREGNATION" thing is probably the worst part of the PT. At least, I think so...

It was awful. It was arrogant and it didn't fit at all. It made the Star wars universe that bit less real.

the star wars universe was never 'real' to begin with in the first place (see lightsaber,

spaceship flying physics, hyperspace, the force, etc, etc, etc)...

 

this didn't change one bit of that at all, that's like saying because : 'a' was real,

and 'b' was less real, that makes 'a' less real... there's no logic to that statement that a lot

of people are claiming....     when you start off with a untrue statement (ie: your assertion

that star wars was 'real'), and then conjecture the follow up statement is true :(ie : the

virgin birth is 'unreal')... then you can never logically make the claim the first statement

was ever true in the first place...

 

i still have no idea why people have trouble NOT believing in midichrolians or

anything that lucas comes up with... if you take the first trilogy as canon, or

a closed set of values (logically speaking) .. and you extend it with the values

from the prequel trilogies, it does not NEGATE the original values.... yes, aesthetically

it may bother you, and it may not be your preference, BUT YOU COULD NEVER ARGUE

LOGICALLY that there is a falsehood, or negation of the original values because lucas

left the entire saga as AN OPEN SET of values, that could be extended however he felt

like...

 

i have no problem with any of the explanations or convolutions that have occured, why?

 

because everything doesn't have to FIT LOGICALLY for it to 'work' for me... i'm open to

whatever incidents occured and changes were made..yeah han shot first, the first time!

but not after that...to some people that is their reality..... and if its not yours, then ignore it.

you don't like the explanation of the force? then ignore it... lucas is not FORCING YOU to

believe everything he says, its just another explanation..

 

if you're looking for logical or reasonable CLOSURE (which it seems a lot of you are) to

the series, its mythos, its values, and ideals, you WILL NEVER BE ABLE to reconcile it

with the prequels, because that's a logical fallacy (as i described above)..

 

 

It was part of this transformation of Anakin into a messiah figure and making the whole story of Star Wars revolve around him.

again, depending on how you saw the movies, and in which order you saw it,

this may be true.. not an issue.. (logically speaking)

 

Lucas likes to say how Star Wars is the story of Darth Vader, but we still remember the time when it was the story of Luke Skywalker.

 

careful how you use the word 'we'.... i know what you're talking about, but not everyone does.

 

look, i don't mean to be arguing semantics, or reducing arguments to absurdist statements

(this isn't exactly logic theory class)........ but everytime i see : statement p (false) and statement q  (false)-> implies statement p(less false)... it bothers me..

 

and yes, you can sue me for being a math major.

 

later

-1

 

The Star Wars universe was never realistic, but just because you have unrealistic things doesn't mean you can't have a certain level of believability and pretend realism. The original films set up a certain level of pretend realism and lightsabers etc worked fine with that. Virgin births do not. And all that was really obvious and shouldn't need to be explained to you. There was nothing illogical in what I said, rather your understanding of its logic was limited.

lucas left the entire saga as AN OPEN SET of values, that could be extended however he felt like...

No he didn't. The original trilogy implied certain boundaries. Which is why the early Marvel comics giant green rabbit doesn't fit and Jar Jar doesn't fit. Maybe you can't see how the original films express those boundaries, but a lot of people can.

Before you assume other people have faulty logic maybe you should consider that you might in fact be a fallible human being and therefore might have failed to understand something in their logic.

And I couldn't give a screw if you're a math major.

rcb said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

The state of Star Wars: Soundly fucked.

But who knows, maybe there's hope. I keep hoping one day the OOT will be out on blu ray and later formats. It's awful that we now have lots of people accepting the pukewell trilogy as a rightful part of the saga and accepting stuff like the animated series as real Star Wars. Star Wars keeps getting abused and abused and abused.

 

 

 

as i had said, refering to your comment on the pukewell trilogy, the newer generation is going to accept it more then

the older generation. i still hear complaints about lucas creating the special editions of the movies. to me, being one

of the more recent generations, i still think the OT is better then the PT. i still accept them though as part of the

saga. and the special editions of the OT were one of the smartest ideas lucas had.

 

The newer generation isn't going to give a damn about the PT in a decade or two, while the older generation (and some younger people) will still give a damn about the OT.

As for calling the SE a smart idea, yeah right, like shitting on great art is a smart idea.

C3PX said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

She was most prominent in one of those awful scenes with Padme's pals trying to start the rebellion. She was really bad in that scene. As such, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about her input into the show.

 

 

Writing and acting are two very different skillsets. Her acting abilities tell nothing of her writing abilities, and it is her writing that will be in the Clone Wars series. Hopefully for the sake of CW fans she is a good writer. Even if she isn't, the chances of her NOT writing another episode are pretty nearly zero, what with her being the great bearded ones daughter and all.

Writing and acting both depend on the same personality and attitudes. Like her attitude on what's fit for Star Wars. I hear she's supposed to have written Jedi Crash and I found that episode annoying, with those annoying little alien twerps with their moral posing and Aayla being annoying.

.

Johnny Ringo said:

...or $40 for 4 episodes?

Seriously? Wow. Robbery. Mind you, HBO used to have horrendous prices on some of their series season sets, but at least the shows were quality. $40 for four silly fucking episodes with Joe Shmoe dork Anakin running around. This is dirty.

skyjedi2005 said:

Also i read that one of the upcoming Episodes was scripted by Katie Lucas.  That is right you guessed it Lucas daughter.  Apparently she has been on the writing staff as an intern for 2 and a half years and now is a permanent member of the writing staff, and is working on star wars.  Clone Wars.  Still could she direct a star wars movie in the future?

I hope her writing skills are better than her dear old dad's on the prequels and indiana jones IV.  He did some good writing with a lot of help on the original star wars trilogy, so i guess the other half can be forgiven.  Too bad all we got to remind us of the past greatness of star wars and george was the gout in 2006.

Katie Lucas. Here she is in the role she played in ROTS:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chi_Eekway

She was most prominent in one of those awful scenes with Padme's pals trying to start the rebellion. She was really bad in that scene. As such, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about her input into the show.

The state of Star Wars: Soundly fucked.

But who knows, maybe there's hope. I keep hoping one day the OOT will be out on blu ray and later formats. It's awful that we now have lots of people accepting the pukewell trilogy as a rightful part of the saga and accepting stuff like the animated series as real Star Wars. Star Wars keeps getting abused and abused and abused.

bkev said:

yea, that whole "ZOMG SPACE IMPREGNATION" thing is probably the worst part of the PT.  At least, I think so...

It was awful. It was arrogant and it didn't fit at all. It made the Star wars universe that bit less real. It was part of this transformation of Anakin into a messiah figure and making the whole story of Star Wars revolve around him. Lucas likes to say how Star Wars is the story of Darth Vader, but we still remember the time when it was the story of Luke Skywalker.

skyjedi2005 said:

Just like movies like the Watchmen film that is upcoming would have been unfilmable because they either could not do the effects traditionally or it would have been cost prohibitive or looked fake.  Like a guy in a blue rubber suit or makeup instead of a digital character that lives and breathes on the screen.

I have to say, seeing the preview photos for the Watchmen film, I may end up wishing that film had remained impossible to make.

HotRod said:

Are you starting to like it then??? 

I wouldn't go that far. And there are still seriously annoying things in it. Like how the Jedi are often portrayed as a bunch of posers. So far Fisto, Luminara and Aayla have been portrayed as posers.

Fang Zei said:

Got to love how it still says "limited time only."

Ok, what says limted time only?

Because I was told on this board that the 2008 GOUT box sets weren't limited time only and they're not advertised as limited time only on Amazon. And the picture of the box that I've seen doesn't show "limited" said anywhere, limted edition or limited time. The 2004 sets are out of print, so they need a regular edition of the OT and the 2008 GOUT sets seem to be it.

So can somebody clear this up for me. Are the 2008 GOUT box sets limited time only or not?

The show can at least proudly boast of being significantly better than the last two prequels. They were barren and empty and soulless and numb, with a supremely unlikable main character. The show isn't like that. It's got a fair amount in common in spirit with the cheerful but shallow antics of The Phantom Menace.

rcb said:

really? i couldn't fall asleep! i was shaking in my seat the entire movie! and it was a four AM showing!

I had trouble staying awake through the film.

AxiaEuxine said:

You all KNOW thats not what I meant. I love episode 3. I was commenting on how the audience never gave it a chance, like all the prequels.

The audience gave it plenty enough chance. ROTS was absolute shite and people have far too much respect for it.