Vaderisnothayden

I always figured it was anger and hate that turned Anakin dark, because that's what the dark side was all about in the OOT and that's what Vader and Palpy were trying to use in Luke to get him to go dark. I'd go so far as to say I suspect that may have been Lucas's original vision. Certainly the version we got in ROTS was a late development. And in an article on his site Michael Kaminski demonstrates how the heavy focus on trying to save Padme in Annie's reasons for going dark was a late development in the actual making of ROTS.

xhonzi said:

"He rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone."

Man, that is awesome. That's going in my sig.

 See? |

         V

Yeah, he did capture it in a nutshell. For a while now I've been carefully meticulously hammering out the detailed theory equivalent of that statement. So much hinges on when Lucas decided to make the SE as the "definitive" version of the OT (as it's described in Star Wars Insider 23 in which the rumors of the SE are confirmed in 1994) -definitive as in it replaces the original. And we got the "Last chance to own the original" video campaign (in 1995) which told us the OOT was being replaced for all time. The OOT was kicked out of his canon, which in reverse kind of kicks the SE and the PT (which was made to be in continuity with the SE) out of the OOT's canon. It's a break in canon and continuity, loud and clear. Hayden Anakin and Jar Jar and all that just don't exist in the same universe as Han shooting first and nor does anything that's in continuity with them, like anything Lucas is doing now or does from now on. So for people who go by the OOT, all the prequels and more recent shit just doesnt happen and isn't real.

skyjedi2005 said:

I don't think lucas will ever come to his senses.  The original versions will probably cease to exist in the future, if he has not already burned them on funeral pyre.  Like Luke Burning Vaders suit in rotj.

I think i officially stopped caring about the Lucas canon and the main film series, when he added hayden to return of the jedi.

I enjoy some eu from time to time, but the even the quality of the fiction and video games are hit and miss.  And mostly miss.

Besides the new tv show will be in the Alternate Universe continuity where the original films the real star wars from 1977-1983 don't exist.  But the special editions do, and the prequels.  It is really a third branch of continuity because in there the 1997 versions also cease to exist.

If he has Daniel Logan as Boba Fett, and has Boba Fett being a clone of jango, again alternate universe tangent of continuity i vote for a boycott of the show.  He may just a well have Hayden as Vader,it is not as if he is going to make true star wars he stopped doing that in 1983.  He rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone.

I don't think lucas will ever come to his senses.  The original versions will probably cease to exist in the future, if he has not already burned them on funeral pyre.  Like Luke Burning Vaders suit in rotj.

 

That's depressing. I hope you're wrong. There are other copies of the films out there apart from the ones Lucas has. They could be used to restore the films. And I don't know if I believe Lucas really has gotten rid of the copies he had. I still hold out hope.

Besides the new tv show will be in the Alternate Universe continuity where the original films the real star wars from 1977-1983 don't exist.  But the special editions do, and the prequels.  It is really a third branch of continuity because in there the 1997 versions also cease to exist.

Yeah, there's that continuity break. Like you said, he really did reboot the franchise. Which gives us every justification of course for saying the SE and PT are not canon. Because if the OOT is not canon in the SE and PT universe then the SE and PT are not canon in the OOT universe, and it's the OOT universe that's the real thing and the question of what's the real thing is the real issue behind the idea of canon, not the whims of "creators" and companies.

If he has Daniel Logan as Boba Fett, and has Boba Fett being a clone of jango, again alternate universe tangent of continuity i vote for a boycott of the show. 

Yeah I'm expecting Daniel Logan to be totally inappropriate in the role. And adult Boba Fett, in Lucas's continuity, is supposed to look like Temuera Morrison and adult Logan's looks bear out my view that he looks nothing like Morrison and never did.

The thing that gets me about the EU is you can get all these video games and comics and novels, all the ones you want, and they have no relation to the real Star Wars story, but while you can get all that irrelevant stuff to your hearts content, the original films that made the legend are still not being restored, are only available on second rate dvds and may not be available on future formats. And the money from the eu stuff goes into Lucas's pockets while he craps on Star Wars and treats the original films the way he does. Personally I think there shouldn't be much Star Wars merchandise out there unless it's fundiing restoration and preservation of the original films. Books like The Making of Star Wars are fine (though preferably at a less flashy size -Star Wars has too much of a business in milking fans for money by selling them lots of luxury coffee table books), that's the sort of stuff that SHOULD be published by Lucasfilm (and they should offer to publish a mass-produced uncensored edition of Kaminski's book too), but all this EU stuff is money into Lucas's pockets while selling Star Wars fans the illusion that it's relevant Star Wars, all while the OOT rots.

CO said:

I hope he doesn't get off with a slap on the wrist, because violence against women is pretty disturbing to me personally.

Violence against people of any gender is a serious business. It doesn't become suddenly worse or better based on the gender of the victim. People of both genders are human beings and have the same right not to be subjected to violence.

The idea that violence against women is worse than violence against men is rooted in old-fashioned sexist attitudes toward women. Basically this traditional view of women as these helpless little people who can't stand up for themselves and can't do things for themselves and need to be protected by men and treated like pieces of delicate china. It's tied to a whole load of other stupid attitudes about women. It's very disempowering for women when attitudes like that are around the place.

Nanner Split said:

He also wrote "Love and Monsters" and all the shit with the Slitheens.

Just sayin'. :P

Love and Monsters was the best ep in season 2. Real depth. But I wish they hadn't put in the bit in the end about the paving stone girlfriend.

I dropped the show after season 3 proved to be a load of shit and they were getting rid of Martha (the main good thing in season 3) and bringing in bloody Donna for season 4. Whereas Torchwood I dropped after season 1 because it was crappy from the start and three of the main five characters drove me up the wall.

Crygor64 said:

 

Thank you adywan. That's great news. I've really grown attatched to David. I wasn't ready to let him go yet. Losing a Doctor was always so traumatic for me when I was growing up. *chuckle*

So David is playing The Prince of the Danes. I would enjoy seeing that. His performance in Human Nature/Family of Blood really blew me away. I always liked Christopher but David has truly earned my respect.

David is going. They've got the next Doctor picked. I found David's Doctor to be one of the least convincing Doctors ever, up there with number five. Doctor Ten came off like a giddy immature fanboy playing at being a Timelord, rather than the real thing. None of the stature needed for a Doctor. Eccleston was so much better.

Nanner Split said:I'm pretty much the same way regarding the TV movie: it felt a bit too much like Doctor Who meets The X-Files, but Paul McGann was a good enough Doctor to bring it up a few notches (he was plenty better than Colin Baker.....blech!). 

Colin Baker is underrated. As opposed to say Troughton, who's severely overrated. The tv movie was plain dreadful and McGann was odd as the Doctor.

hairy_hen said:

I keep forgetting this show even exists.  I first heard of it years ago and nothing seemed to come of it for a long time, so I wrote it off as apocryphal.

I suppose it's possible they could produce something worthy of the name, if it's left in the hands of competant people who respect the original movies.  But honestly I doubt it's going to be anything worthwhile.  If it's even ten percent as good as Firefly, I'd be really amazed.  Can't they just leave Star Wars alone?  Hasn't enough damage already been done?  I'm way more interested in Timothy Zahn's new SW book than anything more officially produced.

"Can't they just leave Star Wars alone?  Hasn't enough damage already been done?"

My feelings exactly.

"I suppose it's possible they could produce something worthy of the name, if it's left in the hands of competant people who respect the original movies."

I think it'll be impossible unless the people working on it reject all of Lucas's bullshit (SE, PT, and the ideology and mentality that goes with it), because as long as they acknowledge that stuff it's going to be part of the foundation of their work and infect it with shit.

"I keep forgetting this show even exists."

The live action show has been put off because of the success of the animated show, but they seem to be implying it'll appear circa 2011 or so.

EyeShotFirst said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

EyeShotFirst said:

skyjedi2005 said:

If it was actually shot on film had minimal cgi, good character writing and scripts i would watch it.  Especially if it tried to emulate the style of the true star wars trilogy and not that shitty add on series.

I will watch the pilot and if it isn't up to my standards I will not get worked up. Of course several TV shows have shitty pilots. I just don't believe in Lucas anymore.

 

Sounds wise. I think the chances of him making something worthy of the name "Star Wars" is nil. I mean, the recent cartoon was watchable, but Star Wars it was not. Nor was there much in way of emotional depth. It was tolerable mainly because it wasn't meant to be much and therefore you hold it to a less high standard than a live action film.

I've seen this live action show compared to Firefly and Battlestar Galactica and Deadwood and Sopranos and I think that's pretentious striking poses, because no way do I think they can come out with something like that. So the show will be pretentious as WELL as dumb.

 

After the prequels he kinda proved that he can't really do a decent movie little less a Live Action show. Maybe he will hop off of the horse he is on and give us OT fans a real good treat. Maybe not. I am not going to expect it to be good. Maybe I should have it in my mind that it is going to suck so if it is good I will think it is really good.

 

The only real good treat I want from Mr Lucas is for him to drop this vendetta against the OOT and restore it and promise to keep it in circulation in future formats.

I've come to the conclusion that there's not a chance in hell of him making anything Star Wars that won't piss me off somehow.

Oh you mean the ship sinks in Titanic? I didn't know that. ;) I bet some people went into the movie not knowing, actually.

TheBoost said:

Trooperman said:

The other option I see would be a blockbuster that completely shatters the current trend and is so popular (like Star Wars in 1977), that is so popular that it causes a shift towards that type of filmmaking in all the studios.  But it would have to be big.  

 

 Like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" or "Mama Mia?"

Those both made more money than God. And yet Transformers 2 was still made.

Mama Mia was shit.

Murry Sparkles said:

 Then in my collection i have Bullit ,the classic Steve McQueen movie with that car chase in it ( the best car chase ever ! ).

That's not a car chase. That's a leisurely drive. But then I've never been a big fan of car chases.

I think I'd put ALL blu-rays on the not-worth-buying list, at least until it becomes impossible to stick with dvd. Some day I'm going to have to switch to blu-ray and I'll want the OOT on blu-ray when I do. But I view blu-ray as a pointless money-grabbing gimmick that exists solely for the purpose of making money off people. There was no NEED for a format more advanced than dvd. Dvds look quite as good as you need movies to look. Maybe if they can find a format that really is non-wearing-out the way people pretended dvd is (dvds cease to work after a certain number of years due to changes in the plastic), then it might be worth it. But for a little totally unnecessary visual upgrade it's not worth it to move to a whole new format and the whole thing is just about making more money off customers. Cheap bullshit. I won't be upgrading to blu-ray until the format's already been around for a long while and I find it too difficult to avoid it. I'm still concerned with getting the OOT on future formats because someday I'll have no choice but to use them and my dvds and vhs tapes will wear out. But right now blu-ray can go fuck itself as far I'm concerned. I've been pissed off about the whole issue ever since I heard they were trying to bring in a new format to replace dvd. I mean, dvd only came in about a decade ago. VHS was going for about twenty years and there's a lot less need for improvement on dvd than there was for improvement on vhs. So why the fuck is it suddenly necessary to upgrade to a new format? We were doing quite nicely with dvd, thank you. Like I said, it's all a cynical money-making scam. But a lot of people are slow to upgrade to screw-ray. Not just because of the economy, but because they've amassed big dvd collections (much bigger than the vhs collections most people had ten years ago) and they're not eager to replace them. The one upside is that prices on dvds have suddenly dropped way down. So I've been buying a lot of dvds recently.

Anakin's padawan is the show's main good point. Grievous I do not need more of. But at least he's not so out of place in a cartoon. In live action he stuck out as a cartoon character stuffed into live action. Kind of the evil counterpart to Jar Jar. They're both Roger Rabbit clones.

skyjedi2005 said:

The Man with No name trilogy By Sergio Leone, yes already out in italy or something but a  us release would be nice.

That trilogy has been fucked around with like Star Wars, though not as badly. Most notably, the main available dvd edition of the third film is an altered version. If you want the version that made it famous in the English-speaking world you have to get the old dvd. I bet the English-language theatrical cut will never be available on blu-ray. Also, the uk versions of at least one of the other films has traditionally had some cuts. You'd think society would be past pointless censorship of films in this day and age, but no such luck.

skyjedi2005 said:

There is already a french release of dune theatrical cut by Lynch on Blu Ray.

 

Dune is one rare case where I don't go with the theatrical cut. Screw the theatrical cut. The extended tv cut is much better, whatever Lynch thinks. Put THAT on blu-ray and I'll buy it whenever I'm finally forced to switch to blu-ray.

skyjedi2005 said:

Actually my dream star wars set would be like Ridley Scotts's 5 versions of blade runner set

That set actually pisses me off. Granted, it's better than what we get in Star Wars, but why the FUCK should you have to buy a five disc set to get the original theatrical cut of Bladerunner? I mean, you can get the "Final Cut" in single disk edition, so why not the original? I personally couldn't give a FUCK about any version of Bladerunner other than the US or European theatrical cuts. All the other versions push the bullshit Deckard-is-a-replicant guff and I don't need that. Bladerunner is an overrated film and its saving grace is Harrison Ford's performance, and he's made it clear that he wasn't playing Deckard as any sort of replicant. I've got Bladerunner on VHS and I'm not buying any dvd or blu-ray of the film until I can get the theatrical cut without having to get a big 5-disc set. Why do filmmakers insist you buy their awful pompous director's cuts to get the real versions of the films?

Star Wars shouldn't be in a five disk set with all of the versions, either. Give us a three disk set of the OOT, with maybe a bonus features fourth disk. Or provide single-film editions. And then provide equivalent one-version-only editions of the other versions of the films for people who want them. So people don't have to buy versions they're not interested in. And the 1997 version should be available. Some people are attached to that and it's part of star wars history. Lucas shouldn't be able to erase from history what a horrible job they did on Jabba cgi the first time around. Not that the 2004 Jabba is much better -it still looks like a cartoon designed to be humorous (just more subtley) and it still looks two-dimensional, maybe even more so.

That Jabba crap is a fucking insult. Because it's not just limitations of cgi (and cgi can do a lot better), it's also a matter of how they chose to portray Jabba. As in with cartoonish facial expressions and not looking at all like his ROTJ self. The 2004 version is supposed to be the same version as the TPM version. Dumb. This is the OT, why not make him look like the OT version established in ROTJ? Plus the TPM version was crap. And they even had him fall asleep at the podrace in it, way to take from the character's menace. In the OOT, villains weren't made into jokes, but in the PT and SE that's a whole big thing. 

Yeah, well we've even got the Special Edition versions of the Clone Wars episodes, so who knows what's next. Maybe for the 3d version of the OT, all the human characters will be cgi. Maybe they'll look like something from the Clone Wars show. And maybe the death star blows up spontaneously, without Luke shooting it, because if it's WRONG for Han to shoot first then it must be immoral for Luke to blow up a death star with so many people in it. So, you know, let's "increase his heroism" by making it blow up without him hitting it. Meanwhile, Boba Fett now sounds like Hayden Christensen and Anakin's ghost has been replaced at the end by a ghost of Jar Jar. (Though I don't know if a ghost of Jar Jar is any worse than what we got in 2004.) This is all to ensure the films fit Georgie's original vision.

CO said:

Episode IV Scene where Owen is buying the droids from the Jawas:

Owen:  Do you speak botchee?

C3PO:  Of course I do, I am fluent....

Owen:  Wait, I know who you are, you are that annoying droid who talks like an English Butler that I owned about 15 years ago.

R2D2:  BEEP***BEEP***

Owen:  And your his little friend, R2.....D....2!

(Owen turns to the camera)

Owen:  Come on George, did you actually think the audience was going to believe I wouldn't have recognized these 2 droids!!!!

 Lol! Watch out, Georgie might work on ANH again to clear that up.

Isn't season two going to be all sorts of stupid fan-service bullshit about bounty hunters? I wish they'd quit pushing cheap "cool" in Star Wars.

vote_for_palpatine said:

Don't look for "name" actors - in fact, the films might even be better in their absence.

I disagree. Some name actors are damn good and I want to see their films.

I haven't seen GI Joe, but I doubt it's the worst movie ever made. That title probably has to go to something made by Jennifer Lynch (Boxing Helena, anybody? -A guy fancies a woman and she rejects him so he chops her limbs off and keeps her prisoner and eventually she returns his affections. And Surveillance was sick too.) You could also try watching Zardoz. And I'd be surprised if GI Joe was worse than AOTC and ROTS.

And I wish people would stop railing about blockbusters and summer movies. Sure there's plenty stupid ones, but they're not all bad, while there's a shitload of awful movies that aren't blockbusters/summer movies, often worse than them. It's sort of a tired cliche to rail about blockbusters in general. And no, films have not been getting worse and worse over the years. There's been plenty good films in recent years and there were plenty horrible films way back. The problem is that once something is designated a classic people don't question that status enough. Too many "classics" are just crap. While some of the films that are self-satisfiedly passed off as bad nowadays aren't so bad or are even good, sometimes very good.

Not that GI Joe is likely to be much good, but it doesn't have Hayden playing a great hero and powerful dark lord and it doesn't have latter-day Lucas romance or jackrabbit Yoda and I doubt it's especially sick or twisted like some movies out there. 

There's been some very interesting films out there in recent times if you just look around, not just in films done way back. Over the past decade we've had Fight Club, Wonderland http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335563/ , Bronson and Pan's Labyrinth. Those are just a few examples.

Fuck 3d. We don't need it. Stupid gimmick. I wish George Lucas would stop going on about putting Star wars on 3d and restore the OOT instead. And filmmakers should focus on making good films rather than trying to sell us a silly gimmick that people rightfully rejected years ago.

CO said:

ChainsawAsh said:

1) Does anyone actually care about the new show anyway? 

I think kids enjoy the series, so I really don't have a problem with them.  I personally tried watching them once on Cartoon Network, and thought it was unwatchable after 5 minutes.

In saying that, it is a cartoon, and Lucas has never really targeted it towards the older SW crowd, so thats cool with me.  What gets me mad about the PT is that it is marketed to the older SW crowd, and then you have characters like Jar Jar in the movie, who is clearly targeted towards kids.  The Clone Wars Movie/TV Show is clearly for kids, so I never really cared about it, nor do I watch it now.

 

It may not be marketed to adults to the same degree, but it IS meant to be serious Star Wars, the real thing, roughly on the same level as the films, and that's an outrage. It qualifies as real Star Wars even less than the prequels do.

Gaffer Tape said:

Oh, geez, really?!  Even in television they can't resist the urge to fuck with what they've already done?!  Can anybody in Lucasfilm not tinker with their work?!

Yeah, that's my reaction, too.

skyjedi2005 said:

But he the fact he failed to recapture the magic of the original series will always leave fans the impression they have a right to condemn Lucas as a person and human being.

He did a lot more than fail to recapture the magic of the original series. He totally fucked Star wars over every which way (Hayden Anakin, jackrabbit Yoda, cartoon Jabba talks to Han, Jango voice in ESB, Hayden in ROTJ, jedis as wankers, films without feeling or heart -the list goes on and on). And then he basically told us that mutilated versions of our beloved films were the only real versions and stuff to the effect that he wants the originals to vanish. We have good reason to be pissed off.

So the films sucked.  So we still have the original movies if albeit in 1993 laserdisc quality. 

Not for long. Dvds and laserdisc cease to function after many years. Video fades. If we don't have it on future formats eventually that will mean we won't have it at all. We'll have to watch the SE or not watch Star Wars, which for me and many others means not watch Star wars.

So the films sucked.  So we still have the original movies if albeit in 1993 laserdisc quality.  And that is the real issue fans hate the special editions and the prequels to no end. 

Not true. Many people hated the prequels before people found out the OOT wasn't going to be released on decent dvd. The prequels ruined Star wars. That's reason enough to hate them. The special edition spat in the face of three of our favorite films. Reason enough to hate it.

When the 2004 dvds came out, I didn't buy them, because I didn't want special edition dvds because I didn't like the special edition. It had nothing to do with the OOT being released on bad quality dvds, which hadn't happened yet. I was fairly tolerant of the specal edition at first (for the life of me I can't figure out why), but I ran out of patience with it at the same as I ran out of patience with Lucas and all his bull, which is after I saw AOTC and realized that star wars was fucked and was headed down the path toward further fuckdom. That was 2002, before the whole OOT-on-dvd issue started up.

The shit quality of the gout does not allow me to recommend those dvd's to anyone

I have no problem recommending them to people. After all, we all survived on vhs for years and that has worse quality. Those dvds have great films, so I'd be happier recommending them to people than quality dvds with crap films.

I refuse to spend money on what a young kid would see as unwatchable quality after watching the restored 2004 set. 

Kids watch all sorts of youtube videos with shite quality. If a kid really thinks the GOUT is unwatchable quality then that's one dumb tech-snob kid. Make them watch VHS.

In a consumer based society you would think the originals being non restored and non anamorphic would prevent them from selling well. 

In a consumer based society, the OOT on bad quality is still superior to the SE on high quality. A lot of people know that, which is why the GOUT sold well. And thank god it did -that's our only hope for getting the OOT on future formats. 

And btw, I think it's a fucking outrage that the Holiday Special is not on dvd and was never on VHS. So what if Georgie doesn't like it, it's a piece of Star Wars history and he shouldn't get to erase history. Yeah, it's pretty crappy, but it's not any worse than the first ewok movie or the horrible Ewoks tv series. If those can have VHS and dvd releases, then the Holiday special should too. At least the Holiday Special has Han and Luke and Leia and Chewie. What does the ewok crap have? A bunch of ewoks.  

I read this bit about how Lucas was bothered by how badly the Holiday Special turned out so he got involved in making the ewok movies to ensure a quality film. WTF?! You call that quality?! Ok, the second one was better -Noa was an excellent character. But the first one? It makes the Holiday Special look Oscar-worthy by comparison. And then there's the Ewoks show he allowed them to make, which was probably used in Guantanamo Bay to torture the inmates.