kk650, has your version been regraded to the colours of the Mondo BD or is it just a blanket removal of the yellow tint?
Gonna grab it either way. Many thanks. :)
I tried the same XBMC brightness reduction on Returns as well. It doesn't make it quite as dark as the above mock-up shot, which is good because I think a little too much detail is lost there. But it does make that shot of Batman look a whole lot more ominous and threatening. In the brightened shot he just looks sort of bored. Lol.
Ok so, as an experiment, I just fired up the BD on my XBMC setup and used the per-movie settings to turn the brightness down from the default 50% to 46% and it really makes the difference! Blacks are deep and black again instead of grey and murky, some of the visual effects that previously looked extremely dated now look seamless and the 'suiting-up' scene where Batman slowly raises his head is far more impressive as his eyes emerge from darkness rather than just getting a little brighter.
I can't say with any certainty at all that this simple change has returned the film to how it originally looked but it definitely looks far better and reminds me more of how I remember feeling while watching the movie as a kid. I'd love to know how dark the original print actually was and whether only certain scenes were lightened for home video, but until we have a good source then this will do just fine. :)
borisanddoris said:
like this?
Exactly. This is clearly close to the original 35mm source as many of the clips are covered with film dirt. Unfortunately it's a very low-quality transfer so is of very little value as a reference. For interest's sake though:
This scene actually appears as dark, if not darker on the BD:
Trailer
BD
Whereas the shadows in this scene appear to have been lightened for the BD, even accounting for the overall dimness of the trailer source:
Trailer
BD
Then there are shots like these. In this one, it's been speculated that you shouldn't be able to see Jack's face clearly until he steps out of the shadows for the Joker reveal. Though I don't think it was intended to be completely black, I agree that it was probably darker originally:
And in this one where the Batmobile is supposed to be driverless, you can clearly see a driver's hand on the wheel. It's surprising that this goof was missed in post-production so perhaps the original scene was dark enough that the hand wasn't visible:
And then there's just the general sense when watching the BD that many scenes just have a 'greyness' to them and lack of depth due to lightened shadows. Oddly this is not nearly as apparent on my PC monitor as it is on my (calibrated) TV.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any consistency in the brightness changes when comparing various original trailer footage with the BD. Some scenes from the BD actually seem darker than the trailer whereas some look as if they've been lightened significantly. It looks as if no blanket darkening process over the whole movie would do the job well enough and therefore a reference print would be necessary.
It’s well known that Tim Burton’s 1989 Batman was brightened for home video releases as many cinema viewers found the original prints to be “too dark”. As someone who still remembers the experience of seeing the original none-more-black Batman in the theatre as a kid, I wondered if anybody here with the necessary skills and software would be interested in creating a restoration with darker levels to resemble the original theatrical version.
Now, as far as I’m aware, there are no reference 35mm prints available to the community. But some indication of how dark the movie was originally can be glimpsed from old trailer footage and 35mm stills on ebay. While it may be impossible to recreate the theatrical look 100% faithfully with the materials available, surely any effort to take down the black levels would bring the movie closer to its original look than what we have now.
I’m just throwing the idea out there in case there is any interest.
I would personally prefer no enhancements whatsoever. Just the 4K source regraded to match the Mondo colours. Somebody's idea of 'enhancing' the original source is what got us into this mess in the first place. ;)
The problem is that a digital photo of a print doesn't necessarily reflect the true colours as many cameras will auto white balance the image.
Isn't that white/green R2 unit seen later being lowered into one of the X-wings before the assault on the Death Star?
I feel that removing him from Tattooine undermines his personal journey somewhat. The least George could have done is replace him with a dinosaur in that scene as well. In fact, replacing all the X-wing droids with dinosaurs would add so much more awesome to the Battle of Yavin!
Thanks for the screenshots. I have some questions if you don't mind.
In shots 5 & 11 Vader's saber appears pinkish in both the GOUT and the BD, however the v2.0 shot has it much more red. Can I ask what reference you used to establish that a redder saber is more correct here?
In shot 8, the GOUT shows the sabers as being much brighter than in v2.0 to the point where the whites are blooming dramatically at the point where they cross. v2.0 looks closer to the dimmer BD look. Again, was there another reference used here?
Thanks once again. None of the above is meant as criticism, I'm just really interested in your decision-making process when it comes to colour references. :)
Can I ask how the Han/Jabba scene was restored? Did you replace the whole sequence with the one from TeamBlu's release or did you somehow replace just the new Jabba from the BD with the 97 Jabba?
I had actually expected the cloud city interior shots to be a lot more orange, similar to the shots from this bootleg and early LD release.
Puggo also mentions that these shots in his 16mm PSB restoration are similarly orange.
Just curious, Harmy; were these sources taken into account when you selected the color grading for these scenes and what made you decide on a color timing closer to the GOUT?
PDB said:
That's my fault. I was rushing to upload a new copy and exported the entire session instead of just the LD track. That's what happens when you rush. Thanks to Jonno for pointing that out. I already fixed it, tested it and uploading it now. I will send you a new link boris.
I'd also very much appreciate a link to the fixed Batman track. Many thanks. :)
Is anybody able to share just the LD sound mix synced to the DCP? I don't fancy downloading another 40Gb just for the audio. :\
Episode 201 was supposed to be censored - that's the joke. The creators may have backtracked on this due to fan backlash but just look at the scene where Tom Cruise is in the machine with Muhammad and draining his power. Muhammad is censored by a black box and, as Tom Cruise absorbs his power, he becomes censored by a black box too! That scene wouldn't make any sense without the censorship.
This myth about the network censoring episode 201 is cute but the joke is on anyone who believes it wasn't intended that way. :p
dvdmike said:
How has this not been uploaded anywhere useful yet??
1000x this
Again, I implore you not to touch the grain or at least make an alternate version of your release with the grain intact.
Any chance of getting the DCP version on MySpleen? The tehparadox links require a premium account and I'm not a member on either of the listed torrent sites. :(
I'm also very interested in this. But please, please keep the grain.
TServo2049 said:
And as to how dark the first Batman was, I have a theory. It had to have been dark enough that the Joker reveal actually worked. In every video transfer of the film, when he's standing in the shadows talking to Grissom, you can make out his face (to differing degrees depending on which transfer). But I just can't believe that Burton would have intended this; the original prints had to have had blacks sufficiently deep so as to almost completely hide him in darkness until he steps out into the light and says "You can call me...JOKER!"
That's interesting. I always enjoyed the fact that you could almost see his face but not quite make it out entirely. The way Grissom winces and strains his eyes trying to get a better look at Jack while he's talking as if he can see that something isn't quite right but it's too dark to see what is exactly how I felt watching it. I feel the scene would lose some of it's creepiness if Jack were entirely in silhouette up until the reveal so I'd prefer to think that was intended. It would be interesting to see how the final script describes that scene as the reveal is such a key moment. All I can find online are earlier drafts in which Jack is hiding his face with a muffler.
I agree that the movie should definitely be darker though. I saw the movie in the cinema in 1990 when I was 11 and right from when I got hold of the first-release VHS tape the following year, I thought that it was too light and grey compared to the deep blacks that scared the hell out me the first time I saw it. No home video release has ever reminded me of how I first saw that movie.
poita said:
The print has been reserved for us, I have a bit of a backlog with Star Wars and others, but I will be able to get onto this in the new year.
Great news. Any chance you could take a quick peek when you get the print and give us an idea of how the colour timing compares to other sources?
Thanks poita. :)
Ok, another $20 here. Preservation or no preservation, I just want to know what the theatrical colours were once and for all. :D
Mavimao said:
Harmy, you should have that explanation on the first post - it's the only way to be sure...
Agreed. And put that comparison shot of Tarkin there too. Nobody who's seen that could possibly justify wanting more than 720p for this project.
Wow, I guess we really can't tell anything about actual displayed colours from a screen photo! That's very enlightening. Thanks Spaced Ranger.
Well that settles The Hobbit for me. If the green tint is theatrically accurate then the BD is perfect as far as I'm concerned. Personally I don't care much about the green tint in FOTR EE since I much prefer the theatrical versions of all the LOTR movies but, as always, I'm glad there are fans out there with the skills and dedication to put these things right for people that want the choice.
That's interesting about movies being delivered on HDDs. I had no idea that's how things were done nowadays. :)