Trident

Mrebo said:

Trident, your initial question was alright, though the psychological is often physical in the sense it’s not caused by experience but rather is baked in (which you recognize). And if we’re talking about solely about the latter, the question that follows yours is what difference it makes? That’s a sincere question for you.

What difference does any question make? I’m curious. I’m beyond curious.

You’ve got to understand where I’m coming from. I’m looking at this from a couple of angles and different world views.

I grew up in a really strong and strict conservative household. Admitting my SSA was a non-starter. Instead I buried it as best I could and managed to screw up a few lives by the wayside. So I’ve got that want to know what’s up with all this. I’m part of a group who get together online to trade pain and share hope. We’re all from different backgrounds. Some of us have SSA. Some of us have dysphoria. Some of us have different leanings all together. But where we’ve got a basic understanding is that we all struggle with our identities in context of our religious views. Most of us are from Christian backgrounds. Most of us grew up our whole lives being told God looked down on what we wanted to do with our bodies. Most of us had families who had a range of different views from what we have. So a lot of us are still closeted. A lot of us only share with each other what we’re really feeling. We’ve made a safe place to be honest with at least someone else on the planet.

Many of us want to live a normal life. As much as possible. I mean we want to understand what makes us what we are. We’re trying to join together the idea we have of recognizing our identities without having to give away family, friends, or our religious beliefs.

Now of course that’s a conflict. Of course there’s a lot of disagreement with that whole line. Because some of us say this is a physical problem? While others insist it’s all in our heads. One of our main members is a doctor who’s convinced his SSA is caused by his environment. Another is an author who is convinced her dysphoria’s a physical extension of what she really is. Full stop.

So sometimes the arguments go back and forth? But what’s true about most of us is that given the choice? We’d take a pill to drop this leaning. Most of us are strong enough in that camp. But that doesn’t mean we’re placing that want on anyone else. I mean most of us also have a lot of Side A friends and we’re cool with how they roll in their own way.

But sometimes the question’s meaningful for a different reason. I’ll give just a quick example.

I’ve got a friend with gender dysphoria who leans on me to give advice. He wanted to know if he should tell his family? Or just suck it up and try to bury it deep inside. I told him to tell them. I told him not to live that lie. I told him he needed their understanding and not to live that life I had to live.

I was basically pretending to be someone I wasn’t for so long that it led to some pretty bad happenings. Some stuff I don’t want to get into. Some stuff that got me to a really bad place. So I didn’t want that to happen.

But then this guy wants to know what I thought of the operation. Now here I was mixed because it seemed like such a 1-way trip. I mean what if he changes his mind later? He was only 18 at the time of first asking (now almost 20). I told him to wait. I told him to take my example. I told him to try a Side B life for a bit and see what happens.

I told him he could always go through with it later. Like maybe 10 years from now?

Look. This guy isn’t really like the OP. He’s not as well thought out. He’s got Asperger’s along with other things. So he has almost zero contacts he can share his world with. He’s got a very odd POV on other things too. So I saw this thread and I thought I’d ask that question. There’s nothing wrong with asking it. I wanted to know if it was felt to be physical instead of psychological. I wanted to know what sort of research the OP must’ve done when first getting into it. Because if physical? Then I’m handing out the right advice to go ahead and get the operation at some point. If psychological? Well I’m not sure. Does it bring this guy forward to get his operation at all? Or will he just go down some other way instead? I mean is the dysphoria of today just going to turn into a new type of “not-feeling-right” about his new body instead?

I’m already well aware of the suicide rate with the transgender group. I’m already well aware that a lot of them are in a tricky place from the conflict they live. I don’t want to go and suggest my friend get counseling vs get an operation only to find I’ve taken the wrong leap? But at the same time I don’t want to just telling him to wait and see. Wait and see. As if that’s helping his torment any more than anything else. Because what might be a fix for me might not be a fix for him.

So I brought in my pal with the other problem as a way to widen the circle. Because on the one hand? I’m ok with telling my one friend to accept what is. To go ahead with what needs to happen. But on the other hand? I’m conflicted because I’d never tell the other friend the same thing. Clearly I’d tell him to keep his cool and fight it. So it just seems a bit of a mix for me right now.

Your last question is essentially whether flame would take a pill, were it available, to make the dysphoria go away. Any given person may have a different answer and it’s complicated by the internal sense of identity one has had and the idea that a pill would destroy that, rather than fix something.

Unsurprisingly your examples get in the way. I get what you’re saying but they don’t really support what you’re getting at.

Well now I think you’ve got the whole view. All 5000 words.

snooker said:

I can’t abide that. I’m sorry, I just can’t.

I’m the most progressive person I know but that shit is repulsive.

So it’s ok to have problems as long as you agree with them? What kind of shit is that exactly?

Thank God I don’t need your permission to hang out at the Y.

News flash buddy. We don’t all get to pick what we are. We just don’t. I seriously don’t see why you’re sitting up on a high horse over this anyway.

I mean maybe I’m not getting what you’re saying? But it just seems so full pretentious.

This guy was so so so reluctant to talk about his issues with the rest of us. He was so tired of being slammed down to the ground for it. We coaxed him. We made it a safe and fair place to speak up. We all knew what it was like to be that animal in the eyes of someone else. We all knew what it was like to be misunderstood and judged. We were over it in about 10 minutes from revelation to relation.

What makes guys like you think you have all the answers?

snooker said:

An adult wanting to have sex with prepubescent children should not be compared with two consenting adults minding their own fucking business. That shouldn’t need explaining.

It’s not his choice though. Just like it’s not mine. And just like, I’m assuming, it’s not the OP’s. The only difference is what the pull is. Not the choice. I figured this would be the last thread where a guy would feel judged.

Seriously

moviefreakedmind said:

What is SSA? And fuck any attempt to compare or link LGBT orientations to pedophilia. I have no tolerance for that.

Why the fuck do I care what your tolerance level is?

I’m talking about the real world. I’m talking about a group I’m a part of. We hang together and share our stories and don’t judge. Unlike you, you prick.

If you knew this guy? You’d know he has a heart of gold. He’s really fighting this. He’s doing all the right things. The only difference is he’s honest about his pull. He’s not some monster hiding in your childhood closet.

Honest to God some people here are such assholes.

Like what gives you the right to judge this guy? What bloody right makes you all that and more?

What’s your take on dysphoria in terms of rating its cause to be physically caused verses psychological?

I mean take apotemnophilia or xenomelia? Both of these are obviously disorders. Obviously. I mean I’d have a hard time thinking anyone anywhere really thinks that wanting to cut your own limbs off is ever gonna be accepted as normal enough to have its own parade. They’re both accepted as caused by physical breaks in the brain. They’re not even so much psychological as physical brain wiring problems.

Now compare that to pedophilia or SSA? The view I’ve gotten is SSA’s moved from being classed as a psychological problem to just a sub-type? But I don’t think the same’s been agreed about pedophilia. I mean I still think people assume that’s more something a guy should go to a doctor to try to get a cure from. I think most people are assuming a pedophile deserves jail time if he doesn’t fight his ‘disease’. I think most people seem to think that’s a psychological failing.

But having a good pal who’s a pedophile I can tell you honestly that I seriously doubt any level of psycho-analysis is seriously going to fix his pull. I mean it’s all so much against what he wants to be? But it’s so so close to who he is at the same time. Still, he and I agree that my SSA and his problem have a common link. He figures it’s based on something mental. Or based on some sort of cause and effect. It’s a long story. But he figures it’s based on something that maybe could be unlearned. He’s hoping for treatment. Maybe even a cure. But I’m not so sure.

So what do you think? Is dysphoria more likely to be caused by something physical or psychological? And I mean if there was treatment for it (other than surgery) would you even want to take it?

Well she could be. I mean its not like hiring actors has never been done.

But I’m not sure how likely that is either. I guess if someone recognized her and tied her to some acting guild that would do.

SilverWook said:

What could anyone gain from putting their life and that of their family in jeopardy on a false accusation? Ford is going to be watching her back possibly the rest of her life. The world is full of crazies who hold grudges, unfortunately.

Money? I mean if you’re the type to believe this is a set-up it’s probably pretty easy to believe there’s a big chunk of cash waiting for her somewhere.

I mean her freaking GoFundMe alone is almost up to $480,000. That’s a pretty strong motive by itself.

And who knows what other secret account might also be waiting for her in some dark corner. I mean I don’t know at all if she’s telling the truth? But people have lied for a hell of a lot less.

https://ca.gofundme.com/help-christine-blasey-ford

Edit: Quote from site

"Important Update – We want to be very clear that the money raised from this campaign is going directly to the Ford Family. They are the only authorized beneficiary. We have worked closely with GoFundMe to ensure this. This campaign is a great way to contribute directly to the family to cover the immediate security and personal expenses they are incurring.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your support! "

We’re probably seeing the last generation where some sort of tangible evidence of one’s unsavory past is hard to come by. Future politicians and would be nominees are going to have their digital and social media skeletons to deal with. But the internet seldom forgets.

moviefreakedmind said:

Trident said:

chyron8472 said:

Trident said:

So that’s where I’ve gotten to be a bit of a Jordan Peterson watcher. I mean that guy’s videos are sometimes pretty good. I connect with the way he lays things out most of the time. I mean I’m hardly a disciple? But that guy has a way of talking that’s usually a class act. At least in the ones I’ve watched anyway. I mean sometimes he comes across a bit angry or maybe stubborn in places? But usually he’ll admit when he’s wrong in an argument. So that scores points with me.

I can’t get past that Cathy Newman interview where she kept saying “So what you’re saying is [not at all what he just said].” Peterson might even be crazy, but to strawman his words in such a comically farcical way makes it hard for me to take opposition to him seriously.

Yeah I watched that one too. And felt the exact same way. Don’t sum up what a guy just said in totally different words. Just ask him to clarify.

Or just do what I do, which is attack his actual opinions.

I like talking them through instead of attacking. But I get what you mean. It’s better for sure.

chyron8472 said:

Trident said:

So that’s where I’ve gotten to be a bit of a Jordan Peterson watcher. I mean that guy’s videos are sometimes pretty good. I connect with the way he lays things out most of the time. I mean I’m hardly a disciple? But that guy has a way of talking that’s usually a class act. At least in the ones I’ve watched anyway. I mean sometimes he comes across a bit angry or maybe stubborn in places? But usually he’ll admit when he’s wrong in an argument. So that scores points with me.

I can’t get past that Cathy Newman interview where she kept saying “So what you’re saying is [not at all what he just said].” Peterson might even be crazy, but to strawman his words in such a comically farcical way makes it hard for me to take opposition to him seriously.

Yeah I watched that one too. And felt the exact same way. Don’t sum up what a guy just said in totally different words. Just ask him to clarify.

No problem

chyron8472 said:

Jay said:

chyron8472 said:

Jay said:

All I know is that activism is slowly replacing reason on the left

While that may be true, activism has already replaced reason on the right. Both sides demonizing each other and glorifying themselves, as though either side has a monopoly on reason, to the detriment of reason itself.

Consider that Rush and Hannity cater exclusively to the right and have done so for a long time; and how many on the right are quick to defame Obama or Hillary, but are extremely hesitant, or flat out refuse, to oppose Trump’s views or actions (except in secret) now that he’s the president.

To be clear, and I’ve mentioned this before, one should not infer that I approve of or don’t see actions on the right that I’m currently criticizing on the left. I’ve seen this in a lot of political discourse, and not just here. It’s almost like some kind of reverse whataboutism, where if you criticize one side for something, people point out that you’re not criticizing the opposite side at the same time, which means you must condone the same actions on the opposite side. It’s bizarre.

Speaking for myself, I’m not a leftist nor a liberal. I’m a moderate devout-Christian Democrat from Oklahoma who is increasingly disenfranchised with the whole political scene in general. To be sure, my intellectual beliefs line up a lot with those on the left side of the aisle, but my faith purportedly not as much.

And that’s a big beef I have with either side. The left often belittles faith in God, and Christianity in particular, as archaic superstitious nonsense; and the right uses (pretend?) “faith” as a political tool to garner votes. Though I find the latter much, MUCH more irritating than the former, since they bizarrely cite faith while doing things wholly contrary to what their faith teaches them were they actually familiar with it (which amounts to them being Pharisees).

Yeah. I’m pretty much lining up with this here.

With the slight sway in that I’m probably more right than left. I mean my religion’s at war with my heart even on the best days. So I give a nod to keeping a bit right on the social side? But then when it comes to fiscal policy I guess I’m more of a bit left there. I mean I don’t believe in wide open capitalism. I think stores are getting way the hell too big and guys with deep pockets are buying too many votes.

That said? I also think our county’s got a problem with emotion winning instead of reason. I mean you see it in the news. You see it in the universities. You see it just about everywhere really.

So that’s where I’ve gotten to be a bit of a Jordan Peterson watcher. I mean that guy’s videos are sometimes pretty good. I connect with the way he lays things out most of the time. I mean I’m hardly a disciple? But that guy has a way of talking that’s usually a class act. At least in the ones I’ve watched anyway. I mean sometimes he comes across a bit angry or maybe stubborn in places? But usually he’ll admit when he’s wrong in an argument. So that scores points with me.

Handman said:

I still think I should talk to her. That will happen on Saturday… However I will definitely try to keep it a bit lighter… we will see.

Dude. I’m thinking deep thoughts for you here. I’m trying to pan the scene and read between all things said and unsaid. And I’ve come up with a bit of a scenario.

So here’s a tip you should try on before saying words that can’t be unsaid.

If you love someone you usually think about them a lot. And in thinking about them a lot you’re usually further into the emotions and the feeling of connection that makes you want to be open and vulnerable to them than you’d be otherwise. That’s normal. That’s typical. But.

There’s a problem though. Because if the other person isn’t on that level? Well holy hell can all those words feel too heavy if said in the wrong order. I mean they can erase even a slight positive vibe because the realities don’t line up.

My strong advice to you is that talking deep is murder to an early relationship. I mean it’s like we complain of Lucas: show us, don’t tell us. Talk is the cheapest way to share feelings. It’s a commitment of words without actions.

But a girl wants to be the one to open up her love to you. She wants to lend that gift. She doesn’t want it forced from her. Or pulled out of her. She wants to show you with her eyes. With her smile. With a slight touch of her hand. With a closeness of her body brushed against you. With a welcoming of you into her deeper life step by step.

The trouble with words is they try to use logic to frame emotion. And man that doesn’t usually work until the feelings are already there for both of you. She’s got to be feeling giddy when you’re near her. She’s got to be craving your hand over hers. She’s got to be wanting you to be near and keep her company in dark times and share fun with you in light. She’s got to be feeling a whole lot of chemistry that might even make her a bit nervous when you’re nearby.

So I’m saying watch for these things. Chart these things. Look for the body language. Watch for the evidence before cornering her with words. I mean when you guys are in a group does she try to sit near you? Does she share any meaningful looks with you that only you and she would understand? Does she feel comfortable talking to you about things she doesn’t share with the group? Does she listen closer to what you say than others? Does she laugh even at your worst jokes? I mean does she seem to be trying even a little too hard now and then?

If you think about all the time you’re with her and come up negative on all of that? Then you’ve got to step up your game in a different way. Don’t do the great reveal until the final act. That’s so guy-like to want to cut right to the chase. But with girls? They like their trip into love to take place scene by scene. I mean have you ever watched a chick flick? Ever waded through a romance novel? The loving confessions come at the end. Never at the beginning. I mean the outbursts of true connection and real feeling are usually non-verbal. The clues are laid out in order. The words come later. The stringing of it all together into a love song comes with the closing credits.

So be careful.

Peace

Reading this forum backwards is sort of an experience. All the banned dudes come back to life. All the comments unwind instead of build up. All the arguments die off. And nothing makes any goddam sense.

But I still do it.

All the time.

I guess I’m just a sucker for a never-ending bunch of prequels?

I don’t know

To hell with you!

Truth

chyron8472 said:

Collipso said:

do, or do not. there is no try.

You can’t handle the truth!

Hasta la vista, baby!

Wow that’s great to hear!

Was he given a reason that made sense? Or any reason?

How long did he know he’d have to retire? I mean was this sudden? Or did he have quite a while to get ready mentally?

NeverarGreat said:

Almost anything Trump or his administration says comes pre-slanted or is an outright lie. So when the media simply repeats these things without immediately fact-checking them, they are perpetuating the lie.

The media should always check up on things before quoting anyone. When they quote someone they basically give that guy credibility. So yeah. I totally agree with you.

NeverarGreat said:

Mrebo said:

This article helped me understand the intense dislike some have for Jordan Peterson.

I read that entire article and still have no idea what this Peterson guy is on about or why people dislike him.

Also, and sort of a tangent, what’s this about Leftism being like the final days of the Roman Empire? It’s an overly ominous attitude about the Left that has seemed to grow on the Atlantic these past few years. I’ve noticed it especially in their pieces on Trump, where the authors write as if his policies and tweets are couched in some form of intelligent strategy or overriding ideology instead of what they almost always are - an attempt to distract from the latest scandal and/or channel the media’s attention. This means that the Atlantic, and many other publications, play right into his hands when they ought to know better, and in fact they often do. When you read right to the end of the pieces, the authors often admit that they know just how cynical his ploys are, but the impression I get is one of defeat from the authors in their assumption that their article will not change anybody’s mind so why bother.

This is from the same publication that wrote this when supporting a presidential candidate for only the third time since 1857:

“In its founding statement, The Atlantic promised that it would be “the organ of no party or clique,” and our interest here is not to advance the prospects of the Democratic Party, nor to damage those of the Republican Party. If Hillary Clinton were facing Mitt Romney, or John McCain, or George W. Bush, or, for that matter, any of the leading candidates Trump vanquished in the Republican primaries, we would not have contemplated making this endorsement. We believe in American democracy, in which individuals from various parties of different ideological stripes can advance their ideas and compete for the affection of voters. But Trump is not a man of ideas. He is a demagogue, a xenophobe, a sexist, a know-nothing, and a liar. He is spectacularly unfit for office, and voters—the statesmen and thinkers of the ballot box—should act in defense of American democracy and elect his opponent.”

This is why the Atlantic infuriates me. If they are convinced that Trump is such a danger to the Republic, they should fight him regardless of how partisan it makes them look.

I like the Atantic’s stance here if I understand it right. Give me the news straight. Don’t slant it or make it too slippery to catch. Let me see what’s really going on as best as possible. Then I’ll decide what I like and what I don’t from there.

I don’t want to be forced to swallow stuff that’s not clean and true. The world’s complicated enough without added smear. Just do your job the best way possible. Just tell us the actual fucking news. Not your opinion of the news. Not what you want us to believe happened. Not some polished off version. Not some clever exaggeration. Just clear facts. And give us a goddamn Joe Friday to read it to us too.

It’s so simple.

The trouble with Pure Capitalism is it’s a race to the bottom and the guy with the most money wins.

And usually that guy is the one who’s the pushiest, meanest, or least honest.

So Pure Capitalism is about rewarding the psychopaths and bullies.

I want tougher laws against big companies. I want big stores to hit a limit so other places can give more choices and have a chance to support themselves. I mean thinking about trying to start up a company these days and competing in an honest way against some of these giants is really not a fun idea.

Sorry for the rant? But a 3rd generation store nearby finally shut down because it couldn’t compete with the advertising budget of a place with over 1000 stores that opened up nearby. They lasted 3 years in direct competition. But the fight just slowly bled them dry.

The owner was practically crying during the last week as he basically gave everything away. They had good quality. Made in America stuff. But couldn’t compete with a place standing nearby with cheap China imports.

Man. There’s got to be a better way to get things done than this.

Seriously.

Handman is probably the kind of guy I’d really like hanging out with in RL. I mean I’m not finding that kind of quality nearby.

And the fact his pals don’t seem to appreciate what they’ve got? Man that really gets me somehow.

I don’t know

Probably one of the reasons I gave up on real world friends years ago is I just couldn’t feel close to anything real. Just too hard to draw out that connection on a regular. Just too hard to always play the game without hope of a close link by the end.

But then I think it’s maybe because I just don’t relate to most.

I mean the stuff I’ve lived sort of gets in the way of relaxing and hanging in the unimportant. I sort of need someone who’s lived a little too. I sort of need someone who’s been there and back. I need someone who can see this world in the same tilted way I do.

So far I only get that sort of meet up online.

Like in this place.

Sometimes.

😉

Thanks man. I really appreciate you guys too.

I’m glad this site exists