Tiptup

Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

I deplore some of the stuff that Lincoln did during the civil war. Supsending habeas corpus was as repugnant then as it is now. But I don't hold the morality of the last century up to the standards of this one. That's the nature of civilizational progress. Nevertheless, I don't give Lincoln a pass.

Alright, but my point was that Lincoln went far, far further than Bush has gone. Many of the properly checked capabilities he advocates for government simply lead to strong law enforcement in my mind and should be active whether we’re at war or not.

Under our justice system, non-citizens should not have the same protections as we do (particularly captured enemies). That’s not to say that decency and ethics should not require us to protect their basic rights as human beings, but that foreign threats should not be given the extra protections we enjoy.

I also believe that under certain circumstances government should be granted temporary powers to properly execute a war. For example, a war on terror leading to the automatic “wiretapping” of native civilians under the correct circumstances is perfectly acceptable. Not every action has to be pre-approved; we can review actions after they have taken place. There’s nothing extreme about this, and therefore there is no reason that it cannot be temporarily allowed.




Then you must live in a horrible universe from your perspective. Violence can be found almost anywhere. Stars are violent. Light bulbs are violent. Surgery is violent. Life is violent. Violence is unavoidable.

You cannot appeal to me that violence is evil in and of itself. You cannot merely say “people were killed and that’s evil!” That’s a meaningless statement. Violence is neutral. It is the context in which violence is used that allows us to judge it as good or evil.

If a society launches an unjustified war against another, we can conclude that the violence is evil. If another society then seeks to destroy the society that began the unjustified war, that violent action can be considered justified and good so long as the response is properly measured.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

In any event ... the Japanese military attacked a military target on December 7, 1941. Their "entire country" was no more behind their war effort than our entire country would become. And our final response to that attack was nuclear annihilation of civilian targets. Go ahead and rationalize that all you please. The depravity of rationalizing a nuclear attack on civilians is disgusting ... but if it will make any of you feel better, go right ahead. And sleep well.

Originally posted by: Jumpman
There is no evidence that Lucas is in it for the money and not in it for the art, which it comes to him as a director. Period. Him milking Star Wars has everything to do with keeping his company afloat. They're not WB, Paramount, or Universal. They don't have a cascade of films in a library.

Then how do you explain the accounts where George argued that Empire should have been made differently in order to make more money? Sounds at least a little detached to me.


Originally posted by: Jumpman

And you don't spend from November of 1994 to April of 2005 and hundreds of millions of your own money, just to make a quick buck. You just don't do it. That's 11 years he could've done numerous amounts of projects(easier ones) to generate more money.

Originally posted by: Jumpman
How can you say Lucas has grown detached? There's no basis for that statement unless you're argument is that "he has treated the Original Trilogy with the proper respect" to which I say....horseshit!

Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

Honest people can differ as to who is the aggressor, but there's no denying that the two invasion situations beg comparison on the anniversary of one and the continuing controversy of the other.

In my estimation, the unjustified aggressor in our current war is just as clear as any invasion comparisons you speak of.




Wow, interesting sentiments. I'd be very interested to hear what you'd say about some of the actions Abraham Lincoln took as president.



Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen

Perhaps we might, on the anniversary of the day the Japanese attacked the United States, also recall the final way in which we responded to that attack, and compare a despicable sneak attack on military targets to a devestating nuclear annihilation perpetrated on civilian targets.


You can rationalize all you want, but I will honor all those fallen by violent attack ... and not merely those from one "side" or another.

Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Lucas' contribution to the Empire script can't be underestimated.

Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
What a difference 60 years makes. Now it is the United States that is the unprovoked aggressor.

Though we did not "sneak" attack Iraq, we were nevertheless completely unprovoked. (Unless, of course, you count violation of U.N. resolutions as a provocation for invasion and occupation ... in which case, where is our invastion of Israel???).

Originally posted by: Jumpman
The Empire Strikes Back was written, first draft after Leigh Brackett died, by George Lucas. The foundation of that story was written by Lucas. Lawrence Kasdan and Kershner eventually beefed up the dialogue and other tweaks. But, that film doesn't work without Lucas doing that first draft after Brackett died. He gave her credit even when nothing from her original script remains.....

Lucas wrote a very quick, rough script at that point. I'm willing to bet that Kasdan and Kershner made a lot more than just "tweaks."


Originally posted by: Jumpman

And the Jackson love is getting to be a bit too much. He gets the love eventhough he makes 3 self-indulgent films in a row (Two Towers, Return of the King, and Kong.) that no one takes him to task on.

Originally posted by: auximenies

I think you missed my point. I came at them (or, TPM actually) with a biased position. I was planning on enjoying TPM because it was a SW film and I was looking forward to it very much. The difference between me and you was that it didn't take me multiple viewings to realize that I didn't like it. But our points are the same, and contrary to Gomer's assertion. We weren't pre-disposed to disliking TPM. We were pre-disposed to liking it.

Ahh, I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding.




Yes, because if a person enjoys something, that automatically must mean that they are enjoying a "proper" job? That's illogical.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

I guess some people were better at meeting him half way than others. He spent almost a decade constantlly working on the prequels, and you guys dismiss them in a few viewings.

It seems to me like Lucas put way more effort into entertaining us than a lot of us put into being entertained.

Originally posted by: auximenies

I can't say that I ever enjoyed the PT, but prior to seeing TPM I was VERY excited about a new SW movie. There was no reason for me to decide ahead of time that I wouldn't like it. SW defined my youth, and the fact that Episode I was actually being made was like a dream come true.

The only thing that my dislike for the PT has to do with my love for the OT is this: I like good movies. The OT were good movies. The PT were not. These opinions were formed AFTER seeing the films, not prior to.

Originally posted by: THX

boba, AFAIK, Zaentz commented again, since the New Line decision, which is where that story is from.

Originally posted by: auximenies

On a related note, are there any pics of the chimp and the old woman that were composited (is that a word?) for the Emperor? I mean, before the images were tweaked.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

I don't mean to insult the original version, but to me the falcon leaving mos eisley was pretty low quality. With just a small blip moving in a straight line, and the lift off from Yavin was just a bunch of red dots that were hand animated to fly up into the sky.

Even before the changes, I always personally felt that those were shots I had to overlook for the greater sake of the rest of the movie.

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

From what I can recall, the CG used to replace the models was created by scanning in the original models.

But the original modelwork and filming is more important than the CG from many stanpoints. At the very least, even you cannot deny history, Go-Mer. Having the original version of Star Wars decaying and not being properly respected and preserved, as Lorne Peterson lamented, is a sad thing. While the "bonus disc" release was a step in the right direction, you can't say that the original version of the films is actively being preserved for the world.




Yes they are! How can you say that?! You cannot be a true Star Wars fan and say that as far as I'm concerned. The original versions of those scenes are oozing with drama and style. Their replacements on the other hand are overly shiny and emotionally hollow by comparison.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic

I just don't get it. Plenty of things that artists came up with for SW was abandoned entirely before the final cut, yet just because you happened to see this stuff released originally, suddenly it's a huge insult to the artist for the director to make artistic decisions?

Originally posted by: canofhumdingers
yeah, well, the last time i pointed out a grammatical mistake, a war erupted. so i figured i'd leave this one alone. (i admit, i'm pretty anal about using proper grammar)

Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab

*As opposed to the classical liberalism espoused in ADM's signature.