vaderios said:
Plus take this awesome excibition of how a PT vader could have been :)
I for one never cared for the prototype Vader mask. It's too expressive, like it's TRYING to look evil. I prefer the placid and skull-like vibe from the real Vader mask.
Bingowings said:
There were many people back in the day who thought that Conquest Of The Planet Of The Apes (too many of thes in that title I think) was racist because it was seen to have portrayed the Watts Rioters (apparently the inspiration for much of the film) as apes (a derogatory image often used to depict people of African origin).
I havent seen that film since I was a wee lad, but if that's the case, both the Watts riots and minorities-as-apes are pretty strong imagery to use lightly.
doubleofive said:
ZombieLocke/Smokie/Esau/Man in Black/The Man Outside
During the off-season, my pals and I took to calling this fellow "God of Evil."
I hated Hogun.
He was living in the same building as the Losties. They probably had breakfast together. Why didn't he just take a few minutes and actually explain the situation? It was always "You have to trust me."
I'm glad he's dead.
Bingowings said:
I once read a review of Aliens which postulated that it was all a racist metaphor for black and white motherhood.
The black alien queen is a parasite who constantly churns out hundreds of fatherless savage children which choke up the environment.
Ripley, the white mother figure throws all of her energy behind one adopted resourceful child and cleans up the neighbourhood after entering into a nuclear family unit with Hicks.
Utter balls.
I just kept thinking about that.
There are people who dismiss are criticism of racism in films with a flippant "well, some people are just looking for a reason to be offended." I usually don't think that's the case.
But in this case with Aliens, that has to be the case.
It's so stupid it makes my head hurt.
i think the one that bugs me the most on that list is "Planet of the Apes."
The apes in the film had three castes. Chimps which in the real world we seem to think are the smartest apes, Oruangutangs, and Gorillas, the biggest and baddest apes. The chimp caste was smart, and the gorilla caste was baddass.
Is it racist that chimps have dark fur and lighter toned skin around the face, and gorillas have darker skin tones? They're damn monkeys for Crom's sake!
Oh, and could they have missed the point of "Falling Down" any more?
Bingowings said:
I once read a review of Aliens which postulated that it was all a racist metaphor for black and white motherhood.
The black alien queen is a parasite who constantly churns out hundreds of fatherless savage children which choke up the environment.
Ripley, the white mother figure throws all of her energy behind one adopted resourceful child and cleans up the neighbourhood after entering into a nuclear family unit with Hicks.
Utter balls.
That has to be the dumbest thing ever.
Ever.
I'm not a guy who sees racism everywhere, but I am able to admit sometimes its hard to see and often more complicated than to allow simple answers.
I can admit that even a work of genius that's blatantly anti-racist like "The Lord of the Rings" can carry within it echoes of a racist structure of the real world (evil is black people from the South and East). I don't personally think Jar-Jar is racist (I hate him for other reasons), but I wont totally dismiss people who see in Jar-Jar troubling echoes of minstrellry and coon shows.
http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/44258486.html
So when I came across this list, which has been making the net rounds for a couple weeks I gave it quite a bit of consideration. My opinion is that half of it is already obvious to anyone, and half of it is totally moronic.
Thoughts anyone?
These are all so entertaining, I'm contemplating being a horrible douchbag and getting myself banned.
You know... as a gift to all you guys.
Bingowings said:
In a lifetime of reading mystery novels, this is the ONLY book I was able to correctly deduce the murderer, motives, and all that jazz before the detective did it. Consequently, I think it's just about the best book ever.
To stay on topic... I bet fellow board poster "ABC" wouldn't have been able to do that.
I dont listen to much music, but I do enjoy the rockband SavaTage, and it's modern incarnation Trans-Siberian Orchestra.
And for some reason, I think "Paralyzer" by Finger Eleven might be the best song ever written, but I wont try to back up that claim.
FF, ABC, thanks a bunch guys. That was driving me nuts.
Is it me, or are people with sceen names that are variations of "Obi Wan Kenobi" doomed to be trouble?
Next word:
MAGIC NEGRO:
This refers to a stock character of a wise black character who comes along and teaches a white protaganist an important lesson. Unexplained mysterious powers are a plus, but not necessary.
This term is tied up into a lot of racial analysis, and like "Mary Sue" I think it gets tossed around a lot when it doesn't really fit, but that's not why I'm ranting against it.
My issue with it is that if you look up anyone describing what it means, every single person lists Morgan Freeman's character in "The Shawshank Redemption" as a good example.
Two reasons this bothers me.
a) The character, Red, is written as an old fat white guy. The movie cast Morgan Freeman but did keep a line of dialogue about him being Irish.
b) Red learns the important lesson of the film (something about hope) from the Tim Robbins character. He doesn't teach the Tim Robbins character anything or do anything especially important (except give him an itty bitty hammer).
I think Morgan Freeman is so charismatic, paternal, and charming that he gives the feeling of his character being more in line with the "Magic Negro" stereotype than the character actually is. His character is almost the opposite of the stereotype, and if Tim Robbins had been a black actor, his character would have been the one to fit it quite well.
Chewtobacca said:
I thought of the Maltese Falcon too. I agree that the Falcon itself is a MacGuffin because it is simply there to motivate and evoke certain responses from the characters: it could, if the story were renamed, be replaced by anything else without detriment to the plot.
Exactly! "The Maltese Falcon" could be replaced with valuable microfilm, the case in "Pulp Fiction" could be the Maltese Falcon, and "North by Northwest" could be about finding a diamond.
FanFiltration said:
I'm saying that Lucas told the story following the DS plans, he could have told the same story and had the same end result had he followed the origins and history of the Millennium Falcon as the focus.
How would that have gone, and how would that have been the same story?
The next word I hate.
MARY SUE
This term originally meant an idealized author-insertation character, specifically in fan-fic. The term comes from a specific parody from the Trek fanzines in the 70s. I guess a lot of teenaged writers were writing about brilliant wonderful teenagers serving on the Enterprise.
"Mary Sue" expanded to mean (maybe) an author insertation character in any type of work.
It also means (according to various sources) any type of audience insertation character, especially an awesome wish-fullfillment type character.
BUT is also means (according to some) any type of character the audience is meant to strongly identify with, idealized or not. In descriptions of what a "Mary Sue" is, one can be a Mary Sue if a character is
Any type of outsider protaganist is likely a Mary Sue, but so is any type of BMOC leader alpha-male type. Being lonely and being loved are both strong evidence of Sue-ism. Being like the author is clear evidence of being a Mary Sue, and so is being radically different.
To summarize... the following characters are Mary Sues.
Luke Skywalker, Spock, Captain Kirk, Captain Picard, Han Solo, Anakin, PT Obi-Wan, Princess Leia, Padme, Thrawn, Mara Jade, Horatio Hornblower, Maximus from Galdiador, Huey, Duey, and Lewie, Talon Carde, Frodo, Aragorn, Neo, Batman, Leopold Bloom, and James Bond
I propose that the term is meaningless because its original usage was so specific and consequently it's been applied to so many situations, each requiring new and in most cases contradictory layers of explanation on the original usage, that it acually can apply to anything the reviewer doesn't like and wants to dismiss as "Mary Sueism".
This is not to be seen as a defense of any character/work that has been accused of "Mary Sue"ing. Only that the term itself has been manipulated to the point of near-meaninglessness.
xhonzi said:
I think it applies here. As FF said, Star Wars (1977) is decidely NOT about the DS plans. The plot may center around the plans, but the story doesn't. The story is about the characters, the galaxy, good vs evil, Jedi Knights and lightsabres, etc...
The plot to Star Wars is about the DS plans. From scene 1 it is the #1 thing the drives the plot.
It is why the princess is captured. It is how the DS is destroyed in the last scene. If the DS plans weren't there, the plot wouldn't work at all. Regardless of the elements that make it a great movie (good/evil, lightsabers, etc) the PLOT is driven by the DS plans. They are fundamental to the plot structure on all levels.
The MacGuffin DOESN'T drive the plot. The money in psycho, the 39 Steps, the Maltese Falcon (which never acually appears in the movie), the briefcase in Pulp Fiction, the microfilm in every spy movie made in the 1960s; the identity of these objects don't matter to the plot, the only thing that matters is that the characters want them.
The DS plans, the Ark, the Holy Grail are all pivotal to the plot, and couldn't be replaced with anything else.
Yeah, but since the plans are of pivotal importance to the characters, the plot, and the audience, they're not a MacGuffin (unless we use the Lucasized term).
Here I'm going to rant and rave about terms used in literary/film criticism, and how I see those terms misused, abused, and rendered meaningless far too often.
I'm going to star with a word that none other than George Lucas decided to rob of all meaning.
MACGUFFIN:
This tem was popularized, if not originated by, Hitchcock. It refers to the object that drives the character's motivations but it otherwise not pivotal to the plot. It's not what the movie is about.
Great examples would be the stolen money in "Psycho" or whatever the hell the 39 Steps are in "The 39 Steps."
The money is thrown into a lake 1/2 through Psycho and the meaning of the 39 Steps are revealed in the last 30 seconds, but neither actually mattered to the viewing audience. They were the MACGUFFIN, something that drove the charaters towards the actual plot of the movie (in these examples, a movie about psychos and a terse chase thriller).
George Lucas came along and decided that the Death Star plans in "SW" were a 'MacGuffin.' Then he took to using the term to describe the central goal of the Indiana Jones films.
The Death Star plans aren't a MacGuffin. They're actaully what the movie is about. They are the driving force of the narrative in every way. They are central to a plot about looking for the plans, raiding the Death Star to get the plans, then using the plans.
Lucas has robbed the term of all meaning, in fact he's robbed it of even a reason to exist. If the MacGuffin is the vital central part of the film, of great importance to the characters and the audience, then there's no need to have a term for it.
Warbler said:
Vaderisnothayden said:Without emotional depth you've got jack shit in terms of art. The problem is there are some pretty mistaken ideas about art and what's of artistic value.
in your opinion
Vaderisnothayden said:
Oh there are other criteria for evaluating movies, sure, but artistic value and emotional depth is the big one.
in your opinion
Warb, you're missing the point. VINH doesn't express opinions (if he even has such lowly feelings). He reveals fact.
Just saw "Avatar" and tried to watch this dude's review of it.
Couldn't do it. His voice is like pulling teeth.
I got just long enough into it to wonder... apparently RLM hates TPM because it's not formulaic enough, and hates Avatar because it's formulaic.
bkev said:
Coffee Bean is the west-coast Starbucks. Everyone likes to go there more to pretend that they're better people for it, but really it's the same
We have a few Coffee Beans in my area, and theyre all within 50 yards of a Starbucks.
TV's Frink said:
10) Clone Wars Recloned (The jedi93 Meltdown):
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/STAR-WARS-EPISODE-III-THE-CLONE-WARS-RECLONED-EDITION/topic/10880/
long ago, Jedi93 said
You know I have connections in Lucasfilms, I could of got you, your edit made for real. But not you can fucken forget it
This has to be the greatest thing ever said by a mentally disturbed douchebag on the internet ever.
Bingowings said:
I thought this thread was about coffee, not my dream menage a trois.
..
...
Wait a sec... I get it now,
