TestingOutTheTest

RogueLeader said:

DominicCobb said:

This is an interesting idea. I’ll need to sit with it and think about how it factors in to the characters throughout the film.

I suppose since I’ve already cut the bit where Kylo tells Rey they’ll kill him and take the throne, this works. I guess if you think about it with the hangar line changes it’s kind of like Kylo is basically saying Palpatine doesn’t matter? I’ve suspected before that his line on the DS “the only way you’re getting to Exegol is with me” was a dub to remove an earlier version where Kylo doesn’t want Rey to go to Exegol at all. Hmm, how might that idea be accomplished?

Actually perhaps most important this change probably makes more sense in terms of my new version of Rey’s backstory.

These kind of logical questions speak to the frustration I’m having while trying to figure out how to make the Force bond duel scene (and the hangar scene) work in a logical way. Tbf, the original film has these problems too I think.

Okay, so Palpatine tells Kylo to kill Rey because he foresaw her killing him and taking the throne. Okay… so, how does Kylo factor into this? Palpatine tells Kylo that if he kills Rey, that he’ll give him the fleet and let him be the new Emperor. So, is he basically trying to tell Kylo that he wants him as his successor, but not Rey? And Kylo believes that?

Why do you think he eradicated the Jedi Order during the prequels? Because they’re a threat to his power, in the way Rey is, in this context. And he wants to possess Kylo Ren after he kills Rey to clear away his confliction - he has no use for Rey at this point since Kylo Ren’s this far into the dark side.

The movie makes you think Palpatine is telling Kylo he wants her dead because she’s a Jedi, but when Kylo says, “Because he saw what you would become. You don’t just have power. You have his power” that whole speech makes me think he is referring to this dark power inside her, that she will become evil like Palpatine.

Maybe it’s like this: Palpatine wants Kylo to think he wants Rey dead because she will destroy him and his Empire “as a Jedi”. But, Kylo doesn’t want to kill Rey. He wants to show Rey her power and her inner darkness in order to make her join him and destroy Palpatine together. But if Kylo fails to kill Rey and go full dark side, Palpatine wants Rey to actually be his new vessel (assuming if she kills Kylo instead).

There’s still less than two whole hours of the movie left. There’d probably be information yet to be revealed by the end (which, in fact, there is: Palpatine originally wanted to possess Rey, but her parents hid her and he turns Ben to the dark side and hopes to possess him, and wants him to kill Rey to clear away of his confliction, but Ben turns to the light and now Palps falls back to his original plan to possess Rey).

Also, isn’t weird that when Rey says that to Finn, Finn says that doesn’t sound like her? Like, isn’t finding Palpatine and destroying him the plan, though? I guess it was how she said it, since it is implying she wants revenge for him killing her parents? So weird. (This is a scene that I think would be improved in a “Rey killed her parents” scenario, because Rey could tell Finn she killed her parents, and Finn could say that doesn’t sound like her. Idk.)

Finn’s never seen Rey like this before.

DominicCobb said:

I’ll be honest, I actually do think you can make some logical sense of the original film’s take, even if it’s pretty silly.

Palpatine from the start wants Rey to come to Exegol and take over his spirit. He basically lies to Kylo knowing that he’ll reveal to Rey her backstory which will just make her want to come to Exegol more. Meanwhile he figures that Kylo won’t actually kill her, and even if he does he can just take her place. “You have his power” seems to be more neutrally “you have a lot of power” or something. Even in Kylo’s mind, he doesn’t know about the essence transfer, so if Rey is destined to kill Palpatine then he doesn’t see why Palpatine wouldn’t want to stop it.

Things definitely get more complicated when we start changing things, since most of this logic you kind of have to figure out on your own, it’s not explicitly stated to begin with. I’m gonna have to think this through for sure in terms of where Kylo fits. Is he trying to stop her from killing Palpatine, or is he trying to get her to fulfill the vision. I will say in my version he still doesn’t know about the essence transfer. I kind of like the idea though that he might be trying to stop her regardless. Wonder if we could sneak in a line like “Palpatine is a distraction,” something that gets that point across. So his offer is really more about the dyad thing specifically. I wish we had that oracle scene, apparently it told him about the dyad. Tricky stuff here.

I’m not in love with my bad parents but still revenge solution, but personally I’ve yet to be convinced of a better solution. I don’t believe that Rey having bad parents would be enough to stop her from wanting revenge for their deaths. These are still people she’s been emotionally attached to for almost all of her life, and this is the dark side messing with her mind after all too.

Except the point of her arc in TLJ is that she doesn’t care for them anymore by the end because of everything they did to her, they threw her away like garbage and considered her to be absolutely, inherently worthless. Why would she avenge them after what they did?

Also, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo doesn’t have any personal connection to Anakin. He has more personal connection to Han Solo, his own father.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

I just want to address something about the pitched edit of removing the mention of Rey having a vision of both herself and Kylo Ren on the Sith throne. She didn’t have that specific vision at the beginning of the movie, she only had it when she touched the dagger on Pasaana.

It’s not shown on screen, and therefore is irrelevant. When Rey says she had a vision, the audience instantly should think of the one from the beginning of the movie since, ya know, it was shown. In fact, there is no proof that they ever recorded footage of both Rey and Kylo on the throne. So tbh, I’m not even sure what they were smoking when they wrote that line for Rey.

By that logic, Luke’s piloting experiences pre-ANH are irrelevant because they aren’t shown to us.

Rodney-2187 said:

Those skeletons were not Owen and Beru. Both were a lot more formidable than their preferred modest lifestyle would indicate. They eliminated the first two Stormtroopers to arrive and stole their armor. Owen burned the bodies, and Beru sent a phony report saying they had interrogated and killed two civilians, but found no droids. Owen had already overheard Leia’s message and deduced Obi-Wan would be taking Luke to Alderaan, so they planned on reuniting there, but lost track of them when the planet was destroyed.

Honestly, that would undermine Luke’s arc and strip him of his personal motivation to fight the Empire.

I just want to address something about the pitched edit of removing the mention of Rey having a vision of both herself and Kylo Ren on the Sith throne. She didn’t have that specific vision at the beginning of the movie, she only had it when she touched the dagger on Pasaana.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

So Rey currently claims with Finn that she saw both Kylo and herself on the Sith throne in her vision. This is wrong. Only Rey is seen on the throne in both the theatrical release and Ascendant. And the vision in Ascendant, in my interpretation, represents the two dark paths she could end up on (either with Kylo or the Sith).

Luckily this can be corrected by simply removing Finn’s line: “Ren?”

https://youtu.be/9NRD_G2N5lI

It’s obviously a Force vision Rey had off-screen we didn’t see.

NFBisms said:

^Rey finding self worth for herself alone, would still serve Rey better than the ol’ friends-and-family-help-me-realize-what-it is-vaguely. You’re Not Alone and being validated by everyone, is not the same as accepting Being Alone and trying to make something out of it. The fact that she even has something tangible to reject to find purpose already takes a lot away from her TLJ arc.

If you’re referring to the scene with the Jedi of the past, they’re not giving Rey validation. They’re encouraging her to stand against Palpatine, regardless of how weak she is in comparison to him. They’re giving her motivation.

“You’re not alone” refers to one of the symptoms of her core belief of self-worthlessness, that being feelings of loneliness. And she turned to the Jedi of the past for help because she felt alone and unable to stand up to Palpatine after he sucked up her life force and threw Ben into the pit.

There’s really no justifying this imo - Rey Palpatine is a completely different arc, and if you think otherwise I don’t know if you understood the ethos of TLJ.

How is it a different arc from her self-worth arc? And I already explained in the post as to why it doesn’t undermine her TLJ arc as well as why said arc is misunderstood by even the most loyal TLJ fans who dislike TRoS.

JakeRyan17 said:

Yeah, that doesn’t work still. Her parents being nobody was about her not feeling like a part of this big and important conflict. Her grandfather being the biggest and most important part of this almost-century of conflict does contradict that. It contradicts her emotional arc of having to create self-worth, rather than her importance being externally from who her parents and grandparents were.

Her feelings of worthlessness don’t come across at all in Rise of Skywalker. It’s a feeling that she must be evil because Palpatine is evil. And overcoming that is literally what Luke already went through with Vader. It’s reductive to Rey as a character on a storytelling level, repositioning her again as a proxy for Luke rather than an autonomous character, and it’s also reductive to her arc that she already went through in Last Jedi to learn that she is her own person regardless of who her family was.

It’s just bad writing. Like it all you want, maybe it helps you with the accusations that she was a “Mary Sue” or whatever. It doesn’t make up for the fact that it was bad writing that hurt the character and story. Maybe that can and will be fixed, but it hasn’t been yet.

I put up a link to my post of Rey’s self-worth arc earlier.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Hal 9000 said:

What’s your version of that moment, in your rewrite?

Genuinely curious about this as well. I kept it the same in my rewrite because I couldn’t think of anything else that made much sense.

EDIT: Maybe just “I’m a Jedi” instead of all of them. But then the whole “1000 generations live in you now” doesn’t necessarily relate to the line.

How about we change Luke’s line to, “A thousand generations will always be with you, but this is your fight…”?

Rey still has depth as a character. Her having a core belief of self-worthlessness makes her so relatable to those who have that as well, and when she does overcome it as she kills Palpatine it shows that those suffering from this core belief can overcome this as well. It’s inspiring.

I never really said that Disney took away Lucas’ original meaning of the PT & OT, I just said that it unintentionally recontextualized that or added new meaning to that.

Ride of Skywalker did contradict what was happening in Last Jedi

If you’re referring to the general heritage, I described in the defense that just because Rey’s PARENTS were nobody doesn’t mean her other ancestors were.

So you, Jake, finally read my actual defense itself.

The self-worth stuff is not really headcanon, it’s actually inferable from the movies. Yes, it relies on inference, like almost everything else in this trilogy.

It isn’t that Rey wants to be important in the grand scheme of things and in the galaxy and make a difference for the sake of it, blah blah blah, yadda yadda. It’s that Rey wants to feel worth something to other people, she wants people to give her validation and appreciation so it’d essentially, emotionally push away her feelings of self-worthless so she can feel happy - but it doesn’t address the core belief itself, only its effects.

And she wants to feel worth something to her parents, as well - after all, they were the ones who abandoned her. Parents are supposed to care for you, love you, take care of you, not consider you to be worthless.

Also, Rey doesn’t technically want to be great, because she feels unworthy/undeserving - her feelings of unworthiness are a symptom/piece of evidence for her core belief of self-worthlessness. She rejects the Skywalker lightsaber that literally called out to her when Maz offers it to her because she doesn’t feel worthy of it. She keeps relying on other people (i.e. Luke, Ben) to be the Hero when she doesn’t want to do it herself.

Even when she does become the Hero it doesn’t imply she’s found her own importance, it’s that she has no other choice but to be that Hero, and even in The Rise of Skywalker she doesn’t feel worthy or deserving of being that Hero (“I will earn your brother’s saber…”) because she thinks she’ll turn to the dark side and no one’ll give her validation and other people will consider her to be worthless. The same happens in The Force Awakens - just because she’s using the Skywalker lightsaber in her fight with Kylo Ren on Starkiller doesn’t mean she finally felt worthy of using that saber, just meant that she has no other choice but to use it.

The truth Rey comes to terms with in The Last Jedi is not that she has to rely on herself, but that her parents really did throw her away like garbage and consider her to be worthless. She finally moves on from her shitty parents, and now relies on other people aside from Luke, Han, Kylo Ren and her actual parents for validation. She says “They were nobody” in the sense that because they weren’t important, it meant they had no actual reason to abandon Rey - something I address in the defense itself.

I do agree with you that the “Rey Palpatine” stuff is similar to Luke’s arc, but it’s simply a natural way of reinforcing her core belief of self-worthlessness - in the same way, Jakku being a desert planet is a way of visualizing the hell Rey’s gone through during her time on Jakku, and Starkiller Base is a way of saying that the First Order’s an improvement over the old Empire (hell, even the laser splits into five beams whereas the Death Star’s beam didn’t in A New Hope when it destroys Alderaan).

This is a really long way of saying “it’s not really about what the person who wrote the story says it was about!”

We all interpret and view art differently (not that film quality is subjective). Lucas said that the saga was about Anakin when he was still in charge, but now with Disney in charge it’s about the whole Skywalker family.

Lucas’ POV: The prequels are the fall of Anakin, and the originals are his redemption.

Disney’s saga… and its unintentional meaning: The prequels are the Skywalkers’ origin story, the originals are their rise, and the sequels are how their legacy would live on once the actual Skywalker bloodline dies off.

Stories unintentionally convey unintentional meaning all the time, if you know what I mean. It doesn’t really matter as to what the creators themselves say, because inferences and what is shown and told to us in the film itself conveys otherwise.

Can I have a link?

yotsuya said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

That is clearly what Rey believes at the time. If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories. Rey has been clinging to the idea that they will come back for her. Again, very typical for someone who has been abandoned. Kylo twists her memories (he was in her mind searching for the map so he likely picked up a lot more that he later found useful). He amplifies that feeling that although she hopes her parents will come back, she doesn’t know of a good reason why they left her in the first place. He is trying to pursuade her to join him and he is the one saying her parents were junk traders, nobodies, that Rey had no place in the story, that they sold her off for drinking money and are dead in a poppers grave in the Jakku desert. Rey said they were nobodies, but Kylo filled in the rest. Probably all things she had though at some point, but none of it true.

I just watched the scene and caught something so many have missed. Here Kylo is saying let the old die while at the same time he is doing exactly what we have seen every Sith do, try to turn their opponent and make them their apprentice/partner. I find it historical that here is his saying he wants to break with the past while repeating the past. The irony is beautiful.

I’ll give you a few comparison examples or something like these, to hammer my Rey pointer in.

Example 1.

You’ve probably seen Finding Nemo. Coral is killed by the barracuda and this heavily affects Marlin, he becomes overprotective of his son Nemo to make sure he doesn’t end up in danger, to avoid facing the same trauma went through when losing Coral.

Imagine if the third movie came out and blatantly revealed to us that (surprise!) Coral never actually died in the first place. This would undermine the entire first movie, including Marlin’s character arc - especially since it was the thing that made his arc necessary in the first place.

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but bringing back Coral DOESN’T undermine Finding Nemo, because we NEVER saw the barracuda eat Coral!”, then I don’t know what to say.

Example 2.

Imagine if Return of the Jedi revealed that Darth Vader was lying to Luke about his father’s identity in Empire. That would undermine the point of “I am your father…”, since it was there for this reason: “How is Luke going to deal with the revelation of Darth Vader being his father?”

If you can say with a straight face that, “Oh, but Darth Vader lying DOESN’T undermine Empire, because we had no reason to believe he was telling the truth!”, then I don’t know what to say.

See my point?

Also, as the other user stated, Rey is the one who admits her parents were nobody, not Kylo. He gets her into admitting the truth she has hidden away, then Rey herself admits they were nobody. He’s just elaborating or adding onto what it meant.

And there was absolutely no indication that “Rey’s parents were nobody” or anything else I said about that was otherwise in The Last Jedi itself.

If you read about kids who have been abandoned, they can have many conflicting feelings, emotions, memories.

Star Wars is a fictional universe. It doesn’t have to follow reality. (You might see it as ironic since it came from me, who detailed on how Rey has a core belief of self-worthlessness, but then, again, Star Wars picks up on some things from reality and doesn’t at times.)

@SparkySywer You didn’t finish the second section on your comment.

I considered something like that once. Removing some of Hal’s edits I don’t really agree with, while preserving some of the ones I do like and adding in my own ideas (not that I’m a super-duper God-tier perfect editor).

Cinefy said:

Hal 9000 said:

Yeah, I see no reason to add a hand. lol

And I hate to be a wet blanket, but Rey using lightning on Finn doesn’t strike me as feeling right for that moment. It could’ve been scripted that way, but with what we have to work with Finn still flies backward and Rey doesn’t blink about any of it.

Yeah I’m not a big fan of Rey using force lighting on Finn, feel like it would probably look weird especially since ILM force lighting is hard to replicate unless you do it in Nuke

There’s also already enough set-up for her giving into the dark side and stabbing Kylo Ren anyways.

@Jar Jar Bricks About the Palpatine line change, it was just an idea I felt like throwing around and felt like the First Order themselves could be their own thing, probably makes Palps’ plans a bit less… muddy.

Secret message to you about the video below… 😉

(Video in question does have some invalid arguments like Palps’ return ruining Anakin’s sacrifice)

Is it possible to modify Palpatine’s line to, “You were just the beginning…”, during his scene with Kylo Ren? Or, “Snoke was just the beginning…”?

There’s perfectly enough time for the First Order to analyse the necklace in the film. The pacing makes it look that way, but it alone doesn’t determine the actual in-universe time of the movie.

First things first, the film is re-titled to Throne of the Darkness, referring to Rey’s vision, as well as the stuff with Palpatine and Exegol and all that.

Below is a revamped version of the opening crawl. It starts off reminding us that this is the sequel to The Last Jedi, but it is put into a halt by the middle…

The flame of hope burns! Following the heroic sacrifice of Luke Skywalker on Crait, the daring RESISTANCE has been reborn. The diabolical FIRST ORDER, facing insurrection on a thousand worlds, is teetering on the edge.

But the dead speak! The galaxy has heard a mysterious broadcast, a threat of REVENGE in the voice of the late PALPATINE.

In response, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren rages in search of the phantom menace, determined to destroy this threat to his declining power…

Obviously, in the crawl, I have removed any references to Palpatine as an Emperor, because he is no longer Emperor. This is applied to other lines in the film.

The scene with Kylo Ren and Palpatine plays out as usual, except here Palpatine is speaking in Sith (which Kylo Ren immediately recognizes and points out; “So… a Sith…”) until he repeats his quote from Revenge of the Sith in Basic and is shown to us for the first time, so we would be asking, “Is this really Palpatine, or no?”, up until that point, so it’d have more “oomph”. It also reinforces Palpatine’s knowledge of the Sith.

Rey’s hair style throughout the film is the same as during her post-Ahch-To experiences in The Last Jedi, as a visual reminder that she no longer cares about her parents and has moved past them, having come to terms with the truth that they did throw her away like garbage.

The Resistance is located at Naboo, not Ajan Kloss. I feel it’d be more meaningful if the last hope of the galaxy is now located at where the saga chronologically started. They are not in Theed, however, although it can be seen in the background in some shots.

Poe isn’t reckless, as in the film it seems like he hasn’t learned his lesson from The Last Jedi. Furthermore, the lightspeed skipping sequence itself is removed as it reinforces his recklessness in the actual film. There’ll be ways to add in some conflict between him and Rey during that scene, but I have no idea as to what.

The Steadfast is Kylo Ren’s command ship and the new capital of the First Order after the Supremacy was crippled in The Last Jedi. It looks like this instead of a regular Resurgent-class Star Destroyer, and it even has its own throne room, complete with a throne for Kylo Ren to sit on.

Pryde is replaced with General Veers from the original trilogy.

I agree with Hal 9000 that Kylo Ren should not be flat-out saying to Rey that he is going to turn her to the dark side.

Hopefully, I can remove Finn being Force-sensitive. Hopefully…

I don’t really like the retcon that Rey’s parents were good people who abandoned her to protect her from Palpatine and loved her, I feel it undermines her arc in The Last Jedi. Instead, they abandoned her because they “saw what she would become,” due to her Palpatine heritage and Force-sensitivity (it’s implied or stated they hated Palpatine himself, seeing him as the bad guy, and ran away from him). Scenes are modified to match this (Ochi is probably reduced to just a Sith assassin).

REY: You said you knew the rest of my story. You knew why my parents threw me away. Why? Tell me.

KYLO REN: Because they knew what you would become. You don’t just have power, you have his power. You’re his granddaughter. You are a Palpatine.

The dyad was formed in the period of time between The Last Jedi and Throne of the Darkness as a(n indirect) result of Snoke bridging Rey and Kylo Ren’s minds; Kylo Ren and Palpatine acknowledge this in their respective scenes. Honestly, it is more meaningful if Snoke truly did bridge their minds, because it shows that Rey had fallen into a trap, that she is naïve.

KYLO REN: What Palpatine doesn’t know is that when Snoke bridged our minds, it did more than just let us communicate. We’ve become a dyad in the Force. Two that are one.

If I re-write Return of the Jedi to replace the second Death Star with the Imperial Palace on Coruscant, the wreckage of the second Death Star on Kef Bir is replaced with that. If otherwise, Kijimi is replaced with Coruscant, so there’d be additional weight to when the Xyston-class Star Destroyer eradicates its entire population, because Coruscant has been with us from the beginning to the end.

Speaking of which… irrelevant, but for a fix for the overall Skywalker saga, the Death Star and anything associated with that do not blow up entire planets, they just eradicate all life on their respective surfaces.

R2-D2 does not restore C-3PO’s memory at all, as it ruins the weight of his “sacrifice” on Kijimi/Coruscant.

When Palpatine drains Rey and Ben of their life force and rejuvenates himself, he retains his Herobrine eyes, as a visual reminder that his spirit is not in his original body, but a different one.

The Tantive IV is replaced with the space cruiser we see in the beginning of The Phantom Menace during Palpatine’s Force lightning attack on the galaxy fleet. It makes more sense from a chronological, saga perspective — whereas the Tantive IV being the focal ship hit was done from a meta, release order perspective.

The exchange between Rey and Palpatine is less… prequel-esque and cheesy (coming from a defender of both the prequels and sequels; yes, we exist!)…

PALPATINE: Let your death be the final word in the story of Rebellion. You are nothing. You are all alone. Your allies have forsaken you! A scavenger like you cannot stand against the true, unlimited power of the Sith!

REY: Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. I am more than that, I was never alone… and I… am all the Jedi!

When we see Rey on Tatooine at the end, she is wearing regular Jedi robes, reminiscent of those from the prequels, instead of her scavenger-esque ones; the fact she is no longer wearing her scavenger-esque robes symbolizes how she has overcome her core belief of self-worthlessness.

The Force ghost of Ben Solo appears with the Skywalker twins in the final scene on Tatooine; in other words, it means all three of the Skywalkers whom Rey personally knew are granting her permission to name herself, “Rey Skywalker.”

Since this is the final chronological Star Wars movie, the credits should start out with, “THE END”, before we get into the real stuff. The traditional Star Wars end credits music is replaced with something that would reinforce Throne of the Darkness as the series finale to Star Wars.

Some of the ideas you guys read aren’t mine, some of them belong to /u/b_khan0131 (now this guy), /u/persistentInquiry, both of whom are Redditors and also like The Last Jedi AND The Rise of Skywalker; some ideas were scrapped concepts and also originated from Colin Trevorrow’s scrapped Duel of the Fates screenplay.

I absolutely LOVE Glitch Techs. It’s this animated show from Nickelodeon that’s on Netflix, I really recommend watching it, it’s really great and enjoyable.

New Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo DS) for the Nintendo Switch.

WARNING: There is a link to /r/saltierthancrait. If you despise that sub, I don’t recommend reading it.

TLJ give no motive why Rey’s parents left her on Jakku.

That’s the point. When Rey admits her parents were nobody, it meant they had no good, actual reason to abandon her, it meant they did this all for nothing, that they didn’t care about nor love Rey, they didn’t give a shit about her. It meant that, to her parents, she is worthless. Even if you cut out Kylo Ren’s following lines, it still has the same meaning. I heavily recommend you re-read the section of her TLJ arc in my actual post itself, to understand what I’m saying.

It’s even framed that way in TLJ. Why else is she not affected by the truth by the time we meet her at Crait? Because she’s clearly moved on from her parents and accepted that they did throw her away like garbage, that they did think she was worthless, and now she’s relying on the Resistance for validation.

RogueLeader said:

There’a nothing wrong with sharing your opinion, it’s just a little annoying when people act like their opinion is objective fact. Plus, people might be more receptive to feedback if it didn’t come off as condescending.

So, for example, “Kylo Ren lost to Rey in The Force Awakens because he was injured and bleeding” is subjective and not an inference or fact from the actual movie?

@KumoNin Yes, both DotF and TRoS retcon (and UNDERMINE THE MEANING OF) TLJ’s reveal of Rey’s parents being bad people who threw their daughter away like garbage and thought she was completely worthless.