TavorX

SilverWook said:

Are we sure Rey put the books there? Maybe Yoda did it…

Lord Vader’s sad devotion to that ancient religion couldn’t conjure up the stolen data tapes…
…but Yoda’s devotion to the Force was able to conjure up the Jedi text into Rey’s possession 🤔

On a serious note, my memory is fuzzy; I could had sworn Rey went into the Jedi library a second time, probably to imply she would take them eventually. Is that a false memory or what?

I believe the shot of those books should stay not just because of what was been mentioned already, but it may send the wrong message when you’ve got the baddie Kylo Ren saying, “Let the past die, kill it” and then we’re led to think Yoda just ‘killed’ the past. Rey saving those books means both her and Yoda won’t let the past die.

ChainsawAsh said:

I actually have (in my humble opinion) a great and pretty simple idea for the Hux “hold” bit.

Hux starts his big speech, then partway through it we cut to Poe’s cockpit where we see the “loading bar.” When it finishes, Poe attacks.

You lose all the “tooling” stuff, but the humor is still there since Poe now cuts off Hux’s speechifying before he has a chance to finish. You can use the cut to the cockpit to stitch together the two separate longer bits of Hux’s speech, making it seem like he was never interrupted by the “I’ll hold” part.

Whaddaya think?

That may depend on what Hux was saying monologue-wise, which I can’t remember. What was he saying that wasn’t a reaction to Poe’s lines?
It could work though, but at the same time, it might be kinda weird to have Poe silent, but if the loading bar and Hux scene switching is fast enough, edit wise, it may work.

RE: Rey keeping the books

Perhaps we can interpret it as Luke, a Force user, that has studied the ways the Force was taught and found its flaws but chose inaction; these books should be burned. Rey on the other hand is going to study the flaws of how the Force was taught but choose action and actually apply her wisdom, whether that means redeeming Kylo or craft a new Force Order, or both. Hence these books will have value because it offers a baseline of guidance, but not strict code for future generations.

darthrush said:
So when Yoda agrees it is time for the Jedi to end, I believe they are speaking about the old dogmatic order. But Luke learns what it means to be a true Jedi master by the end and declares that Rey will continue his legacy and inspire others.

My initial impression was that Yoda wasn’t agreeing that the old dogmatic order should end, but that’s probably because I was still overcome with surprise to see Yoda on screen again. Can anyone post the full dialogue exchange between Yoda and Luke? I’m having trouble finding it.

Yo Captain, Needa apology?

-sincerely Disney-Star-Trek-hack-frauds.

I think AngryJoe and many other YouTubers point out how awful it was for Luke to toss that lightsaber like that, but their reasons for not liking it actually work in favor of Luke discarding that saber. They say things like, “THIS LIGHTSABER HAS BEEN PAST DOWN MANY GENERATIONS, IT WAS THE ONE HE USED AGAINST VADER AND WHERE HE LOST HIS HAND!!!”

Whenever that’s mentioned, it’s comical to me to think that’s their reason why it shouldn’t had been tossed by Luke. To Luke, it’s a weapon that is tied greatly to bad memories, so of course he wouldn’t praise it like the Holy Grail as fans do.

However, I do think it’s very odd to have that scene done in that manner. It literally feels like a gag lifted from a YouTube parody video similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXlao2KNYjQ

So I’m totally on-board of why TLJ’s Luke doesn’t respect the saber, but surely there could had been a less comedic way of doing so?

1. Empire Strikes Back still remains flawless to me
2. A New Hope comes second due its mostly linear and straight forward story, which isn’t inherently a bad thing
3. Return of the Jedi is third because the second half still features the best space battle and the best confrontation between Luke and Vader
4. The Force Awakens stays here at #4 because it brings new characters that are really interesting to watch; ones that you actually care about
5. The Last Jedi basically is the defining line where it’s still a SW film I would like to watch preferably over the SW films that come after in this list; it’s not OUTRIGHT awful, but it’s not really great either
6. Revenge of the Sith is uh, still a watchable prequel to me since it was my favorite prequel movie at the time as a kid
7. Rogue One may be a ‘different’ SW film, but oh boy, it arguably has the worst and least interesting characters since…
8. Attack of the Clones and…
9. …The Phantom Menace

Basically #7, #8, & #9 in that list stand out as being the most bland to me because it tries to have this epic story, accompanied by flashy action sequences, and super uninteresting characters.

SilverWook said:

I’m still pondering Rey’s experience in the Dark Side hole/cave. Luke seemed very wary of it. (Had he ever gone down there?) It was nothing like Luke’s experience on Dagobah. No phantasms appeared to her. It was nothing I expected at all.

Is the Force neither dark or light save for what you bring with you?

The way I interpreted that scene was Rey was tempted somewhat by the dark side due to thirst of knowledge or resolution regarding her parents. As if the dark side was lulling her into the void by promising her the answer she wanted since the other way with Luke wasn’t getting her closer. Her experience is still similar to Luke’s dark side cave experience; Vader’s helmet blows up to show a mirror image of Luke’s face, and Rey literally gets a mirror of herself on the wall.

But at the same time, Luke’s dark side cave interaction was much more clear that Luke was driven by impatience, which highlighted his recklessness that could corrupt him to the dark side much easier. Rey kinda just falls into it and… I don’t know, the whole sequence was weird as I can’t fully say for sure the reasons behind her were temptations of the dark side or mere curiosity that had nothing to do with the dark side. Maybe that’s the intention /shrug.

lovelikewinter said:

Rey has the books, she has her experiences and she will have to forge her own path, be a Jedi in her own way. The old order is dead, the Sith are dead, there is only the Force.

Yeah that is true regarding her keeping the books; that’s the only story thread I think that will allow Rey to learn the rules in order to break the rules in IX. Just the way we leave off with TLJ does it seem like we’re shunning that idea, but I could be misreading this totally.

I’ve not been able to see it a second time yet, but this story point still bothers me, and hopefully someone can me make sense of it.
Luke went on this amazing rant on how the Force and the Jedi Order were seriously flawed; how dare the high and mighty Jedi claim the Force as vanity, right? He goes on to teach Rey the ways of the Force, but not because she must become a Jedi, but in order to learn why not to learn the Force in same manner as the Jedi in the past have. She must find that balance, at least that seemed to be Luke’s intention.
However… Rey eventually leaves and then Yoda appears. Was that whole interaction between him and Luke basically Yoda telling Luke, “No, the Jedi Order is fine”; dismissing the whole rant Luke made earlier? Plus at the end, Luke says there is indeed a last “Jedi”, of course referring to Rey.

Basically what I’m asking is that we’re keeping the status-quo that Jedi are mighty heroes, and that those teachings are A-OK? Because if that’s the case, I seriously would love the risk taken to have Rey, as many had hoped, to be a more “gray” Force user that subscribed to neither dogma of Jedi or Sith but instead synthesizing both sides to have more whole-view of it all. But by the end, it’s like Rey is still this super bright light of goody-two-shoes Jedi…

What’s everyone else’s take on this?

regularjoe said:
I’ve noticed two trends with folks who dislike R1 and TLJ, the big one is resistance to moving away from legacy characters (Luke/Han/Leia) and the other is the Mary Sue/I don’t like minorities crowd. I don’t see a lot of the latter here but see a lot of it elsewhere onliine.

Guess I’ll remain that outliner fan then. Loved TFA and felt let down by R1, but only slightly dismayed by TLJ. I totally fell in love with the new characters like Rey, Kylo, and Finn. I loved how Han was handled and didn’t mind Leia in TFA. However, TLJ felt like it dropped the ball with the main characters, which I find fault in how it picks up so shortly after TFA, so there’s little room for greater character growth. For some reason I’m less excited to find out what happens next to these characters, which is a complete 180 from the excitement felt after TFA ended.

Just briefly rewatching TFA’s intro and it really highlights the difference in humor used. While the humor is vastly different from the OT, I think it still works well, though I cannot exactly nail down the exact reason but I’ll try. So in TFA, Poe is brought to Kylo Ren and Poe says that “Who talks first, I talk first, you talk first?” but Kylo doesn’t really play along with it. He keeps his composure and serious demeanor all the way through until he’s frustrated with Poe’s last line of, “It’s hard to understand you with that apparatus” and sends him off to the transport. Maybe it’s similar to Han in ANH where Han is having that intercom chit-chat with that Imperial officer. It plays out funny because we know Han is trying to convince and sell the fact everything is fine right after clearing that room, but of course that officer picks up on the fact that something is off. In either case, each gag works because one side is goofing off a bit, but the other side is completely serious.

So come TLJ’s opening gag bit between Hux and Poe, it falls flat to me because it’s as if both parties are pretty much in on the gag. It’s completely over-the-top to me that Hux goes along with it and keeps asking, "Can he really hear me?"
I don’t know, maybe I’m saying complete non-sense here, but it’s just a thought that hit me when I just loaded up TFA again and noticing how different it feels. The serious moments are able to linger and consistently maintain the tone. Then once the tension is gone, then the humor when it comes is more appropriate.

I wonder if someone can better explain this.

TFA is basically the outline of ANH with the expected story beats.

TLJ is basically the outline of ESB/ROTJ with unexpected story beats.

Yeah even me who wasn’t impressed that much is still compelled to watch it again; though my excuse is to take my mother out to see it for the first time 🤣

JawsTDS said:

TavorX said:

JawsTDS said:

Collipso said:

Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?

Yes, but said by BB-8 in the opening space battle (according to Johnson).

Ha I love that then cause that means they broke at least two conventional SW tropes; a saber on saber duel and a person saying that line, which frankly starts to feel so redundant by this point so I’m glad a beep-boop speaking Droid “said” it this time.

To each their own. Unfortunately, I’m a traditionalist when it comes to Star Wars, so the execution of the line and the lack of Wilhelm scream is really annoying. That being said, it doesn’t make the movie any less great.

I guess a Wilhelm scream in every SW wouldn’t hurt, as it’s just background sound effects that can easily go unnoticed if subtle enough. But when it comes to that famous line, it starts to really stick out way too much because you’re expecting it every time these days and often feels tacked on. Because every OT film had it, then every SW film after had to have it, which frankly I think is lazy and takes away from that line being a more special catch phrase among the original main characters. But at the same time, yeah, it’s not a huge issue but it’s something I personally would like to see less of.

I think it’s safe to say if you didn’t like TFA to begin with, that means you don’t care about these new characters, which are very much present in TLJ. I personally loved TFA, even with some of its cringe humor, but my hunch is that turned you away even more from this ST. So if that’s case, if you didn’t like the new characters and didn’t care for the humor, I say that many people, even those that claimed to like TLJ, do find the humor even more forced and a total tone killer compared to TFA.

I’ll vouch for “no” for you in that case.

JawsTDS said:

Collipso said:

Was there a “I’ve got a bad feeling about this” line?

Yes, but said by BB-8 in the opening space battle (according to Johnson).

Ha I love that then cause that means they broke at least two conventional SW tropes; a saber on saber duel and a person saying that line, which frankly starts to feel so redundant by this point so I’m glad a beep-boop speaking Droid “said” it this time.

DominicCobb said:

TavorX said:

DominicCobb said:

In my mind Luke is another way in which the ST has made up for the problems of the ST. Much like Han (who has next to no depth in ROTJ), the Luke of ROTJ is simply not as interesting as the one in SW and ESB. He basically goes from fucking up big time at the end of one movies to being uber confident and wise at the start of the next. At no point does him turning to the dark side in ROTJ seem like a plausible possibility.

Huh.
Vader toying with Luke about Leia was really eating at his mind, which really sent Luke over the edge there. The only thing that stopped Luke was seeing both Vader’s chopped off hand and his cybernetic hand, realizing that Vader is still a human as just as much as Luke is, even underneath all that machinery; challenging Obi-Wan’s line of, “He’s more machine than man.”

I know that moment (I know that film by heart). It’s great. But nothing that precedes it would lead you to believe that Luke might actually finish Vader off and turn.

But saying it’s not “plausible” seems like a disservice to how we saw Luke in ROTJ. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, it sounded as if you’re implying Luke struggled very little by the temptations of the dark side and effortlessly accepted the light all the way through, when in fact, the mere thought of Vader doing anything to Leia greatly sent him over the edge. All that rage was pure seduction of the dark side. If he had not struck Vader in the spot that he did, it’s fairly likely he would had turned.

Vader’s hand chopped off by Luke = Luke forming a connection of empathy, thus not going full dark side
Vader’s hand not chopped off = Luke most likely believing that getting rid of Vader will save Leia and his friends

DominicCobb said:

In my mind Luke is another way in which the ST has made up for the problems of the ST. Much like Han (who has next to no depth in ROTJ), the Luke of ROTJ is simply not as interesting as the one in SW and ESB. He basically goes from fucking up big time at the end of one movies to being uber confident and wise at the start of the next. At no point does him turning to the dark side in ROTJ seem like a plausible possibility.

Huh.
Vader toying with Luke about Leia was really eating at his mind, which really sent Luke over the edge there. The only thing that stopped Luke was seeing both Vader’s chopped off hand and his cybernetic hand, realizing that Vader is still a human as just as much as Luke is, even underneath all that machinery; challenging Obi-Wan’s line of, “He’s more machine than man.”

TV’s Frink said:

TavorX said:

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.

See the thing is, I was totally on board that Luke fled; being deeply ashamed of failing Ben Solo, and also perhaps realizing he wasn’t knowledgeable about the Force as he thought; as Han presumed, Luke went in search for ancient Jedi temples, as one would assume to acquire more wisdom and hopefully a plan of action to redeem Kylo. I realize that Luke had to do the whole rebuild the Jedi Order by himself and mentoring was a new thing to him, so of course he would face some conflict due his inexperience in actually teaching others. However, the whole trigger point for the current state of affairs started due to an error that we would think Luke learned from years prior. Yes people change, but there’s certainly fundamental, inner values and instincts that don’t change. Personality can change some, such as Luke’s manic old hermit personality, sure I can buy that. Now though, a moment of triumph at the end of the OT, a completed arc for Luke’s character, is destroyed here.
I can again, completely forgive and chew on the theme that legends aren’t perfect people, in fact I loved that angle. It’s why I loved TFA’s Han because I could totally bite into the fact this war hero just wasn’t father material and had no indication of being a great husband or father to begin with. I just don’t buy Luke messing up so badly like that when that experience from ROTJ was such a defining moment that proved and validated to himself that a more peaceful approach wins the heart.

This isn’t the only issue I have with Luke either. Okay even if we conclude it was primal instinct in that very moment, I do not buy Luke choosing to do nothing. He always proactive to save his friends.

Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.

Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.

dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.

No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?

dahmage said:

Except that isn’t what happened…

Okay it’s fair to say I’m probably off since I’ve only seen it once; without using a snippy Luke quote from TLJ, what am I wrong about here?

Novus_Opiate said:

The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.

I’m focusing on this because to me, the main story of this film centers around this flashback between Kylo and Luke. The reason I think the Luke complaints are valid are because it’s absolutely beyond me to think Luke went from the leap of, “Kylo is having dark thoughts” to "I need to kill him RIGHT NOW!"
Luke over the course of three films learned something super important: patience. Luke started out impulsive and impatient, but in ROTJ, he is calm and collected, more wiser. So why in the world is Luke all of a sudden this trigger-saber-happy Jedi master? I’m not even saying Luke should be flawless. I was going to accept that Luke just sucks as a teacher and messed up Kylo’s training. But instead, his mistake was… being impulsive? Yeah yeah, Luke finally felt shame at the last moment, but my goodness, I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber. As far as we know, Kylo hadn’t even done anything bad beyond just having dark thoughts. Luke should be so much wiser to deal with this kind of stuff because he himself did feel the tempt of the darkside in ROTJ, something that Obi-Wan never did and hence why Luke was miles better than most Jedi before him. Luke should be the best person to help Kylo work through it. And fine, if not, Luke should had been figuring options A, B, and C, diving deeper into the mysteries of the Force in an attempt to bring Kylo back to the light. Instead he follows the same exact path of Yoda, which should had been a lesson in of itself to begin with to NOT DO.

This is why I think the complaints are warranted.

joefavs said:

I left the theater thinking Rey would be going after Finn after her apparent discomfort when he was caring for Rose on the Falcon.

I sorta thought the same thing. I really have no idea how they’re going to add romance in this ST, if at all. At this point, I don’t think they can; they missed that chance in TLJ to setup any chemistry. If they make anyone hook up in IX, it’s going to be forced as hell. At the same time, they keep dropping these vague romantic flings between the characters that I suppose the writers can’t ignore and will inevitably have someone together in IX, unfortunately.