TServo2049

thorr said:

NeverarGreat said:

These look wonderful, though still a bit on the green side.

  I agree and disagree.  :-)  Each shot has a different tint to it. Sometimes it is yellow.  I think that is the nature of how it was originally and the set it was on. 

I know that some prints have had color shifts in different shots. For example, from what bits I've seen of them, the IB prints have noticeable color shifts in the Greedo scene - every time it cuts back and forth between Han and Greedo, the colors seem to be different. And Team Negative1's color-corrected version of their faded Kodak copy of the scene (which was spliced into their LPP) has similar shot-to-shot color shifts.

Yet I've also seen versions (late-70s VHS bootlegs, the Derann Super 8 print) where this color shifting doesn't occur, and the color seems more consistent throughout the shot.

So there were color differences between certain runs if prints, and probably between individual prints. The Moth3r bootleg has one shot of Red Leader go totally orange for no apparent reason, something I have never seen in any other copy of the film ever. And I remember mverta/Harmy saying that on at least one of the IBs, some shots in the lightsaber duel have a cold blue tint, and when I checked other sources like the Senator photos and the aforementioned bootlegs, those shots had a different color balance, closer to the other shots in the scene. (poita, do you know anything about this last one?)

Can someone explain to me what that super-blown-out picture is from? There's obviously a joke here, and I feel like I'm the only one who's not in on it...

I read an article by someone who had worked on transfers of Bluth films while at MGM, and he said you could see animation pegs and unpainted cel edges in the "true" full-frame image. From that it seems that NIMH and/or All Dogs Go to Heaven were shot with the entire Academy ratio exposed, but with the intent to that it would be matted to widescreen by the projectionist. Or basically, they were shot like many live action films of the same era.

(I swear I also saw frames of The Land Before Time on one of the 35mm eBay auctions that had more picture on all four sides than either the 4:3 or 16:9 versions.)

As you can see, the whole frame is used. I'm willing to bet that the cels not going all the way to the edge of the frame is why the full screen transfers were tighter. This is why a lot of 1.37 animated films aren't completely open-matte.

My point was that An American Tail is open-matte, but that the widescreen has almost no extra picture on the sides, and I don't know why.

Wazzles said:

I just today bought the fullscreen DVD of An American Tail. Does anyone know if this is open matte or pan and scan?

Open matte. The official widescreen transfers (Region 2 DVD, HDTV airings, Blu-Ray) have almost no extra picture on the sides.

Actually, the widescreen versions have always looked a bit tight to me, I am still not sure whether the official widescreen transfers are all zoomed in too much, or if that's how tight the framing actually was in theaters.

The open-matte transfer is likely still zoomed a bit just to hide the edges of cels and stuff like that, but for it's odd for the widescreen to have essentially NO extra picture on the sides in comparison. I've seen 35mm frames of The Fox and the Hound, The Great Mouse Detective, etc., with cel garbage at the edges of the frames that you don't see in official 4:3 transfers. And I know I have seen widescreen transfers - e.g., the HD airings of The Land Before Time - that have a little extra picture on the sides even with less on the top and bottom. With widescreen transfers they don't have to worry about exposing the top/bottom crap so extra stuff can be shown on the sides. I wonder why An American Tail never has extra image on the sides...maybe someone needs to find a 35mm print.

I assume the original Region 2 was likely just a port of the laserdisc transfer?

And actually, you could always see Deems Taylor onscreen at the beginning of the short version. (Except for the 1982 version, I think? But that has not been released anywhere.)

Glad to see you posting again, poita! Hope you're well (aside from the knee, which I hope gets better), and hope you get settled in at your new place.

interesting, the 35mm seems somewhere between the Shout and MGM. The MGM is obviously too dark, but is the Shout still too bright?

The spoRv looks too bright too.

I wish I could see a 35mm projected - isn't the Rialto DCP basically the same as the Shout transfer but in 4K?

I swear I remember reading somewhere that the Streamline dub wasn't done in stereo. Can anyone else confirm?

I wonder, will Rec.2020 allow for higher contrast without crushing out detail? I like the contrast of 35mm prints, and I know 35mm prints also lose detail from contrast increase (and don't usually have "true" black levels), but we all know how awful increased contrast looks in 8-bit, Rec.709 HD.

IMO, an improperly colored 4K version with grain is better than a more correctly-colored 2K version with DNR. We can change the color if we want. We can't reverse DNR.

Grain. Beautiful, beautiful grain. How I've missed you so.

It looks more and more like 4K is driving a stake into the heart of the waxy DNR trend. This is as revelatory as Lawrence of Arabia. (Off-topic, I still don't understand why the HD master of the original Harris restoration of LoA, the one that was used for every DVD release and HDTV broadcast, looked so cloudy and diffused. I swear I heard that the theatrical re-release prints were sharper.)

There's a reason the widescreen version of Jurassic Park feels too tight: It IS too tight. Every widescreen transfer of JP since DVD (or possibly even the Japanese MUSE Hi-Vision LD) has been zoomed in, for no apparent reason. Even the 3D theatrical DCP was overcropped. (And I saw an IMAX 2D 15/70 print of the 3D re-release version at a science museum screening - it was also overcropped.)

The original letterbox LD had much more open framing, even though it was the same 1.85:1 AR as the later releases. The 35mm preservation also has more open framing.

I can't figure out why the overcropping has persisted for so long. (I am even starting to doubt whether the 3D version came from a new scan...)

Here's what IMDB says:

There are significant differences between the first video releases (Thorn/EMI and HBO Video) and the 1991 Hemdale release in relation to picture, sound and end credits. The Thorn/EMI release has:

• A blurry picture throughout

• The entire film soundtrack played at the wrong pitch, which sounds like it was recorded on a cassette tape.

• The Post Production and credit to Harlen Elison is inserted right above the copyright date and timed to roll along at the speed of the credits.

The HBO Video release has the same blurry picture and high pitch soundtrack with the following changes:

• The post production credit rolls as soon as the movie fades to black. After disappearing, a black, cheaply done title card done with "1980s HBO Font" shows the Harlen Elison credit. The previous timed credit that appeared in the Thorn/EMI release has been blacked out and timed to run with the credits.

I don't know if the "HBO Video issue" refers to the first Image LD, or just the HBO Video VHS. Since it says it's still sped up, I presume it refers to the VHS. I wonder if there was a "stealth" repressing of the first LD (with the same SKU) to add the credit, or if the changes were only to the VHS versions.

I'm still interested in the first Image LD, because it may be a different transfer from the later Hemdale full-screen version (which was only on VHS, not LD). The first Image LD was the only pre-2001 U.S. transfer to start with the Orion logo, indicating it's different from the early-90s Hemdale versions which started with their logo.

Even a 35mm of the theatrical cut would be awesome. I'd love to see that get scanned someday...

As I have said, I doubt any uncut prints exist ANYWHERE. From what I've heard, even Don Bluth doesn't have an uncut print. (I've heard conflicting stories about whether or not he has/had one of All Dogs Go to Heaven, but I believe he/Gary Goldman came out and definitively said that they do NOT have the deleted scenes of TLBT. As I said before, they are either in Universal's vaults, or they are lost.)

I think you should get the full-screen Image disc too (the one with the gold disc background).

Does the LBX Image LD have the cigarette burns, like the LDDB notes for the THX version claim?

There's a lot of conflicting info out there about the various releases. LDDB doesn't list any of the LDs as being stereo. A note for the 1995 THX release says that the older (1991) widescreen disc had reel change burns (MrBrown, which Image widescreen LD do you have, THX or non-THX?)

Also, there seem to have been two different full-frame transfers too, because the Thorn-EMI-HBO LD doesn't have an Orion logo at the beginning, but the later Image full-screen disc (around 1988-89?) has the Orion logo. The first Image LD was still under license from HBO, their logo was at the start, but the widescreen discs were after the rights had reverted to Hemdale. (I believe both widescreen transfers have the Hemdale logo at the start.)

Also, is the Thorn-EMI transfer the one where the Harlan Ellison acknowledgment was a tiny video-generated text notice buried in the end credits? I've read that Ellison complained that the acknowledgment was not sufficient, and that was when the start of the end credits was fully redone to insert the more prominent Ellison credit.

I don't know how often the prints had to be replaced. I have read forum posts from the early 2000s complaining about the print condition of Star Tours, but when I saw it in 2010 a couple months before it closed, I thought it still looked decent.

Captain EO had new prints struck for every park when it was brought back (though I would not be surprised to find out those prints are still the ones they're showing now).

Looking forward to it. I remember that either a 35mm or 70mm played at the American Cinematheque a couple years back, but I couldn't get myself from SF down to LA to see it.

Here in SF, the Castro is showing the movie on the 12th, but unfortunately their calendar says it's DCP. Hopefully a 35mm will show up around here sometime, perhaps after Drafthouse reopens the New Mission. (Or maybe Castro will show a print again someday, you never know.)

cool about the BTTF TV airing. What country?

I have the German DVD. PM me.

The FSK 18 VCL DVD does seem to be a straight transfer of an original German theatrical print or print master. The Orion logo has a German distributor notice superimposed (optically), everything is in English with German voiceover, there is no Harlan Ellison credit, and there are burns at the reel changes. It's also a straight transfer of the 4:3 print with electronic letterboxing of about 1.50:1. You can see the in-camera hard mattes change from scene to scene (when the matting goes further than the video letterboxing). 

When I was an active contributor to IMDB, I spent as much time correcting info as I did adding it. I heard someone call it the Wikipedia of movies, that's not far off. The accurate info is indispensable, I just dislike when inaccurate info spreads.

I'm guessing (original) refers to the approximate running time of the earlier assembly cut that contained the extra scenes. But that wasn't ever officially released, there was never a finished version of the movie with those scenes included, so it's not right in any case.

Nightbreed happened because fans were able to pressure the owners into letting it happen, and because Barker wanted it to happen. If Michael Mann doesn't want anything to do with the movie, EVEN making a Director's Cut, I have no idea how long it will take for a proper release.

And also, a 35mm preservation of the theatrical cut should still be done if at all possible, because even if we all agree it's inferior to what could have been, if Mann does come around and do a director's cut we probably still won't get a physical HD release of the theatrical cut for as long as he's breathing.

Actually, by 1985 I'm pretty sure 70mm prints would have all been low-fade. I saw an original 70mm of Ghostbusters back in 2010, it was beat up and ridden with splices, but the color was fully intact.

But how many 70mm prints still exist, I don't know. Only 7 theaters in the US/Canada played it in 70mm on opening weekend, so I'm guessing only a handful of prints were ever struck.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/history-legacy--showmanship/going-back-in-time-back-to-the-future-30th

I have no idea if the image here is from a small strip of film, or if it's from a complete print some collector has. I doubt we'll ever know.

There's no artificial sharpening. And the generational loss in the 35mm printing process must have reacted with the smoke, making things fuzzier. This is still how it would have looked in the theater.