Oh OK, I'm fine with that.
I know they can't fit on a DVD, but I think every LD preservation needs an X9/X0-style raw video capture and lossless PCM WAV rip, at least as a starting point.
xhonzi said:
The "pan and scan has more resolution in the square box than the letterbox has in that same square box" defense is sometimes true. I said this of the DVDs- that the P&S versions had ~3 times the number of pixels for the space... except someone who knew told me that the P&S version was a blow-up of the Widescreen, so that extra resolution was all garbage anyways.
In the case of the DVDs, this is partially right, I believe both were sourced from the same HD master. But back in the old days, P&S transfers and widescreen transfers were done separately, at native NTSC or PAL resolution.
And BTW, I'm not defending P&S, I hate it as much as you do. It's just an unfortunate truth that until the late 90s, the image detail of widescreen transfers was restricted by the fixed resolution.
That said, I repeat that I loathe P&S with every fiber of my being, and I still prefer to watch widescreen, no matter how low the resolution. I just think the P&S laserdiscs (not VHS tapes) should be digitized for posterity.
Way back in the 90s, Treadwell said he remembered seeing a 16mm print of Raiders where Jock's voice sounded different. Wasn't there also a clip in the "Creepy Crawlies" featurette on the most recent DVD release, where Jock's voice was different?
I believe the guy who played Jock was American, but I don't know if that's his real voice. For a long time, I assumed he was either a British guy dubbed over by an American, or it was a British actor putting on a fake Texas accent. But apparently the guy who played Jock *was* American.
Either way, the scene would have had to have been ADR'ed, and I know the script and novelization said he was British, or Scottish, or something. What did the Jock voice in "Creepy Crawlies" sound like?
I have the widescreen CAV releases of the entire trilogy, but since I don't have a player, I'm not sure what to do with them. I was hoping to give them to someone who could do preservations of them - especially Raiders minus the digital corrections.
captainsolo, do you already have all three of the movies, or would you be interested in my copies? I bought them for ridiculously cheap at an indie music store, but they have the paper envelopes and those plastic-bag sleeves intact, and I didn't see any visible surface scratches.
SilverWook: I forgot to clarify that I don't have a laserdisc player, so I wouldn't be able to do anything with them. Or did you mean send me the files once you've ripped them?
If you meant send me the discs, just hold on to them, because they're of no use to me without a player, and I don't really have the money to buy one.
Just wanted to clear that up.
I am crossing my fingers that it's actually the remastered audio. I'm not even sure whether or not they changed the packaging for that re-release.
How apropos that you're getting this not long after another user found an early-90s Japanese LD of Star Wars with the 1977 Dolby Stereo track in digital...more proof at how invaluable LDs are for original sound mixes.
I have that rip. The LD was rechanneled stereo. It was good rechanneled stereo, but it wasn't the original mono.
I do think there should be a better rip of the LD. A mono reconstruction track for the U.S. cut could be done if someone could just find a mono element for the American "Beatles to battle" ending. Two 16mm prints sold on eBay recently, but they were prohibitively expensive.
I've heard there are preservations of TV airings, but I don't know of any American ones. Anybody have the 1979 BBC preservation, who can say which cut it was? I'm assuming it was the UK, but you can never be too sure...
Gaffer Tape said:
Whaaaa? The "black bars" are there to keep you from losing image information...
He means image *resolution*. He's right - as we know with the GOUT, a lot of vertical resolution and image detail is lost in 4:3 letterbox. I loathe pan and scan, but even I can admit this shortcoming.
In fact, I calculated it, and only with the advent of HD does letterboxed 2.35:1 finally surpass the vertical resolution of pan-and-scan 480i.
Even though these versions are butchered, they still need to be preserved for the sake of posterity. The P&S transfers, and specifically the PAL versions, probably have the most detailed starfields of any version (though Harmy has gotten an impressive amount of starfield detail out of the crushed Blu-ray transfers).
And finally, someone who notices that modern Blu-ray transfers often lose that hard-light/high-contrast look of 70s/80s film. (Though the old P&S transfers of the SW trilogy also have an overly bright, flat-contrast look at times...but of a different kind than modern Blu-ray transfers.)
Oh, so it was the 1992 CLV that had the 1985 digital remix, not the reissued CAV? Schorman's find proves that the pan and scan releases need to be as well-documented as the widescreen ones, just for posterity.
I'm intrigued, I thought that there were only two NTSC P&S video masters, both done in 1982, one time-compressed with the correct logo and fanfare, one not time-compressed and with the wrong logo and fanfare. Obviously, it's actually more complex.
I wonder if the 1983 Japanese disc is an entirely different transfer than the U.S. ones. (It's happened before, remember the Evil Dead LD with different color timing?)
Good news: I asked on SteveHoffman.tv about the mono track of the new YS release, and apparently it is 100% original mono. (And it's lossless to boot!)
The only thing that needs to be found now is a mono copy of the U.S. cut. It did air on TV in the 80s, I think. Even a faded 16mm print would work, as long as the sound is in good shape...
The '92 reissue of 1130-84 would have been the 1985 remix in digital, with the tractor beam line...right?
As for the 1983 Japanese disc, would that have been the same time compressed version on the original U.S. LD? That also had the original Fox logo and fanfare.
Darth Mallwalker said:
Back in 2005, Neil S. Bulk told us that 1130-84 have the re-recorded fanfare.
Belbucus confirmed it in 2006:
Belbucus said:
Other previously documented issues included the wrong Fox logo cue, and some instances of pretty severe "wow" or sudden pitch shift. Everything has been repaired and/or filled from alternate sources, taking great care to match the EQ and level so the fixes integrate seamlessly.
So if the '82 VHS/Beta had the newer fanfare, and 1130-84 had the newer fanfare, then the presence of the newer fanfare on the Japanese LD means that it is the exact mix heard on those releases.
I had no idea that the raw 1130-84 audio had those issues. I'm guessing that this Japanese LD has the same problems, so the same things will have to be done to it that Belbucus did to the 1130-84 audio.
Should we just use the "corrected" bits of Belbucus' 1130-84, rather than redo the fixes from scratch? Do we know the exact locations of these glitches?
The presence of the newer fanfare seems to suggest that your version's audio is derived from the same source as the 1982 VHS/Beta releases, which did have the updated logo and fanfare. Since those releases didn't have the tractor beam line, that means yours is probably the original '77 stereo with the exception of the fanfare. (Evidently, the 1130-84 was a different transfer of the '77 stereo, since it had the old fanfare.)
The 1985 remix, AFAIK, had the original fanfare. My old VHS had the 80s Fox logo, but the original fanfare audio, and it had the tractor beam line. This is because the later pan and scan releases used the 1982 VHS/Beta transfer - the one which wasn't time-compressed. (The time-compressed LD/CED version had both the original logo and fanfare.)
I remember thinking that the 1995 Faces VHS release of ANH looked like a revelation compared to my old tape. Even though we now know how flawed those transfers are, it seemed so amazing back then because those of us without laserdisc or the widescreen box set had been watching a transfer that was over a decade old.
Yeah, my guess is that this Japanese LD is basically the 1982 VHS/Beta version but with digital sound encoding. Great find.
It's not gonna be that easy. Apparently, TGTBATU has a couple bits in the American cuts that are not in the Italian one. When Eastwood takes his share of the gold, there's a shot of his horse rearing up, and then Clint says "Sorry, Tuco."
The Italian mono on the MGM disc actually has matching audio for these parts, but these two shots have apparently always been absent from the true Italian cut. Conversely, they have always been in the American cut, since every video release going back to the old pan-and-scanned videos has had them.
There are also differences in the scene of Tuco being tortured. There are some comparison clips of both in this thread:
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10097.0
If there are bits missing from the Italian cut, then conforming the English mono to it might be difficult. I'm thinking of what CatBus had to do for Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Either that, or make a hybrid of the Mondo and MGM video sources to go with the hybrid English/Italian track.
Returning to an earlier topic: SilverWook, any luck on the Grease LD?
Also, I discovered that at least some foreign mixes of that film were different - Canal Hollywood in Spain shows what looks to be the restored version, but with an old, mono Castilian Spanish dub track. It matches the 1978 mix, but some sound effects and things seem to be mixed differently.
In "You're the One That I Want," the sound of Sandy grinding out her cigarette with her toe is really loud. You can also hear Danny throw away his sweater, though it's not as loud as it is in the remix, and I didn't hear the loud "thump" sounds when Danny's sweater and Sandy's jacket hit the ground, which are only in the remix.
Also, the vocals of Jan and Putzie, Sonny and Marty, and Doody singing along are mixed in a lot louder than the original English mix. They're basically at full volume. (This is also true for the modern, remix-derived German dub, but as with the previously mentioned backup vocals, they are horribly out of sync with the rest of the music...)
Some of the walla sounds kind of different in some of these dubs, for example, the wolf whistles when the made-over Sandy first walks in, but I'm wondering if some of those were actually unique to each language's dub...
With the Mondo release as a picture source, maybe the original mono could be reconstructed to sync with the uncut version.
Did the 1991 LBX LD have the sync problems too? Also, if the old VHS tapes were uncut, does that mean the missing scenes could also be on the old CBS/Fox LD? It's non-CX analog, but it is English mono...
LDDB also claims that the Japanese LBX disc is uncut. There's a copy for sale, but like most Japanese LDs, it's pricey (about $43, plus the seller is in Japan).
captainsolo said:
TServo2049 said:
The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.
This is exactly what MGM did when they released a newly extended cut of Duck, You Sucker! on DVD. The "Mono" option was merely a folddown of the 5.1, and while it was nowhere near as intrusive as the bastard GBU mix, it features the wrong music in several spots!
Funny that, John Kirk says he changed nothing music wise, and Glenn "DVD Savant" Erickson, who worked at MGM when the uncut LD was released and knows more about the film than anyone, says the music matches both LDs.
But if the DVD indeed has "fake mono," then track down the 1998 A Fistful of Dynamite LD, which has both digital and CX mono.
Could the other two films also have fake mono?
It's better, easier and truer to simply leave the scenes in Italian and subtitled. That way you have the original effects and balancing the way it was mixed.
Agreed 100%. A hybrid Eng/Ita mono synched with the Mondo BD visual would be perfect.
BATMAN (1989) Blu-ray 5.1 TrueHD sounds shit because it was lowered 4Db.
Really? Hmm..wonder why they did that. I guess it's part of the Dolby Stereo to 5.1 conversion? All the films that have this done seem to lack the punch and rumble that I recall them having. With the move to discrete channels, there seems to be a loss of presence and a kind of analogue muddiness that I miss. (Just watched Last Crusade on DVD and thought it sounded a bit too polite.)
Who knows? Maybe it has to do with modern home surround tracks being tweaked for the smaller home setting? Mike Verta said something like that.
Since the JAWS Blu-ray is only going to have 7.1 DTS-HD MA, anyone have a high bitrate PCM track from the Signature Collection Laserdisc? Similar to what dark jedi did for The Terminator. Glad I have a Blu-ray disc burner but BD50s are expensive.
That would be the way to go, as the Blu will have a lossy mono as an afterthought. That said, with a decent receiver and speakers, lossy mono can be pretty effective.
Seconded, lossy is better than remix-only. That's why I'm still holding on to the 2001 DVD of T1.
Another example of a missing mono track: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. When MGM put together the restored extended cut, they only did a 5.1 remix, since the original mono track conformed to the shorter U.S. theatrical cut, and according to DVD Savant a restored mono track was not included in the restoration budget.
The Blu-ray includes a mono track...but it's a fold-down of the modern remix! All the other MGM Leone films include the original mono (albeit not lossless), but TGTBATU doesn't.
The original DVD contains a mono track, but naturally it's not lossless. This film deserves a lossless preservation of the mono track from laserdisc. Both of the 90s letterbox LD releases contain a digital track as well as a CX-encoded analog track.
I think it could also be possible to make an extended version of the original mono track, by taking the lossless Italian mono track on the Mondo Blu-ray for the additional scenes, and switching to a mono fold-down of the English whenever someone talks. That way, you'd have a mostly original, English mono mix that could be synched up to that superior release.
And if you want to go one further and make an English mono that includes the grotto scene, to synch up to the MGM Blu-ray, you could probably cut together the lossy Italian mono on that disc with the English dialogue from the remix.
You'd need to compare the HD broadcast to the archival DC, not the Final Cut.
I was glad to finally hear this version, because it's the exact version that was spoofed in the Tiny Toons movie 20 years ago. "The audience is now deaf."
The transfer on the 1990 and 1992 pan and scan tapes was identical to all the VHS releases since 1982. My copy was from '92, and you still couldn't see the Tusken Raider in Luke's binoculars.
The only difference between any of the VHS'es is that the ones from 1985-92 have the new "digitally mastered" sound mix with 3PO's tractor beam line. All of the 82-92 P&S VHS releases have the wrong (80s) Fox logo at the front, proof that the same video master was used for that whole time (though at least the 1985 mix has the correct fanfare).
There is only a cosmetic difference between the 1990 and 1992 versions. The CBS/Fox Video logo and "Collector's Preview" intro screen/announcement were replaced with a Fox Video logo and preview intro screen/announcement, and the CBS/Fox mentions on the packaging and labels were replaced accordingly.
Everything from the trilogy preview to the end of the tape are identical to the 1990 version, right down to the long copyright screen at the end of the trailer that still mentions CBS/Fox, and the unchanged "Check for title availability..." and "Feature presentation" screens.
In fact, the 1992 versions are sometimes hard to spot without watching the actual tape. Why, you may ask? Because some of the 1992 copies still had CBS/Fox boxes and/or labels! My old 1992 copies of ESB and ROTJ came in 1990 CBS/Fox packaging with CBS/Fox labels. Even my 1992 copy of ANH, which did come in a Fox Video box, still had a CBS/Fox label!
In short, don't bother. The 1990 version only has the new trailer, and the 1992 is for all intents and purposes the same as the 1990.
Agreed, we already have Puggo's transfers of ESB and ROTJ in the pipeline. Transfers of those LPP 8mm prints of the original are a higher priority than an 8mm of ESB.
Were the vertical emulsion scratchlines removed like on the Lowry DVD cleanup, or intact like on the HDTV master?
For those who don't know, some 35,000 feet of the negative (during the Tanis scenes) has an emulsion scratch running down the center; this shows up as a blue line. I've also noticed that some other shots have dark purple lines running down the left side. It was intact in the HDTV version (at least, the one with the CGI truck that shows up on American TV - not sure about the WOWOW version), but removed by Lowry for the DVD.
I think the negative may have been A-roll/B-roll/C-roll; get a version which has the blue line, and watch the scene where they open the entrance to the Well of Souls. It will show one angle and there will be the blue line, then another angle and there will be the purple lines, then another angle and there will be nothing. Which damage shows up seems to correspond to specific camera angles.
That print has been listed and re-listed for a couple months, and nobody has bought it, probably because of the price tag. But if anybody here wants to fork over a cool two grand for this print...
According to LDDB, the "remastered audio" LD has an analog track with CX noise reduction, so you could at least do a rip of the analog, then pass it on to someone to get the digital. (And if it turns out to be the '81, it's analog anyway.)
I say go for it.
-Jeffrey
Yes, the Dolby Surround track is still the remix. It's the mix used on the 1998 VHS. The DVD also has a 2.0 remixed track.
I was worried that some of those other ones were just the analog disc. If that sealed copy turns out to be the 1981 analog version, I see that another one is specifically described as the remastered audio, that one's in Norway but it's only 5 bucks without shipping, instead of 30...
Try your luck with those discs, I'd love to hear the original mix in WAV like with DJ's Terminator rip...
And I just noticed another problem with the remixed "You're the One That I Want"...when they show the couples in those stick-your-head-here cutouts, their vocals are missing. Not even just dialed down--they're GONE. They weren't that loud in the original mix, but listen to the last one, where Doody is paired up with his dog hand puppet. In the original mix you can clearly hear him sing "You're, the, one, the one I want, ooh ooh ooh" but in the remix he's just mouthing it.
Thankfully, there is a copy of the 1995 Japanese pressing of Grease available for only 30 bucks...