TServo2049

Again, the fact that Mike has the original version preserved more than makes up for any qualms I might have about what is being done for Legacy. Even with George no longer in control, I am still highly skeptical that Lucasfilm would ever do such a loving scan of whatever surviving interpositive or whatever they might still have of the original version.

I read from someone on Blu-ray.com that ILM's composites generally had blue stars, that they were purposely filtering the starfield element. But this person was referring to their mid-80s stuff (Jedi, Star Trek III, and so on). Dunno if it was true for the original. ILM's techniques did change as the years went on.

That's what the Special Edition SHOULD have been. I do like the cruddy original for its historical value, and would be curious to see a version that approximates what it would have looked like in theaters in 1977 without all the extra clean-up and roto and registration fixes, but my god, once you clean it up, it makes you wonder why they even needed to redo the shot in CG! (Yes, I know Lucas and Muren wanted a single shot, but even then you can't tell me the 1997 version could have been pulled off with models if they wanted to. But I digress.)

The blue-green tint to the ships still intrigues me. A lot of old prints (not official video releases) seem to look like that, and I can't help but wonder if it was intentional. (It definitely masks the monochrome R2-D2 cheat to some degree...)

I'm also glad that you are keeping the original versions backed up.

That's immensely interesting - because all of the letterboxed/squeezed widescreen bootlegs have the "opening-day" composites. (Only the cropped mono-mix bootleg has the later ones.)

That would mean that there were at least three interpositives/print masters/whatever assembled in 1977. Based on my theories, they'd be:

1. A "pre-release" one with no orange marks, original composites, and splices (between each negative "roll?") have copious amounts of cement residue

2. An "opening-day" one with the orange marks (how were they introduced? were they dark orange damage on the positive, or light blue damage on the negative?), different splices, still the original composites

3. A "revised" one with the orange marks, same splices as #2, and new composites

All the 35mm prints used in fan projects (IB Technicolor prints from the UK, 1983 Spanish-language LPP print) seem to be from source #3.

I'm still not sure which source was used for the 70mm film cells (which came from a new, non-sound-striped positive made in 1995 - actually, all three films were taken from unstriped prints, I now realize the black stripes on the Empire and some of the Jedi cells were actually printed-in edges from a previous negative generation). Anyway, as you said, the one frame I found with a splice matches #2/#3. Here's another frame (look, blue lightsaber!) http://www.ebay.com/itm/171527475689

Would still be curious to see the Cineavision Super 8.

Oh, I see. I get it, I guess they just got the same version as the UK.

It was released on Blu-ray in censored form in the UK, not North America. I don't believe the U.S./Canada ever got a Blu-ray (hell, did we even get a DVD?!)

Is there any difference between the Mitsubishi and Pioneer SWE? I assume they both have the "incredible shrinking ratio" transfer? (Which is actually not the JSC transfer, it's from the same film source but was apparently a different telecine.)

I don't think there's a good rip of the non-Technidisc SWE out there, is there? I would be interested to see one, especially to see if it matches the 1991 UK widescreen VHS (which was an NTSC to PAL conversion).

It's weird, there were accounts that during the SE restoration, some parts had to be separated by film stock, presumably they had to un-cement the splices, and so forth. There was that anecdote about a space battle scene with a shot of Han where the chemical bath completely dissolved the emulsion.

Maybe only the effects scenes (and shots before/after wipes) were in the o-neg fully edited? I know separate o-neg exists for every individual shot that had effects added (which is why the first shot of R2 and 3PO shakes much less violently, why the remaining original-shoot components of the infamous landspeeder shot are nowhere near as grainy, how they were able to recreate the wipes, and so on).

BTW, the black line in the Vader shot looks like a tape splice (as opposed to a cement splice). Interesting that it's black and not white. Presumably that means the splice was done at a positive generation, not on the negative? This also could lend credence to my theory, related to AntcuFaalb's about the negative not being fully spliced together, that the JSC and GOUT elements were each edited, from scratch, at the interpositive stage.

Judging by the lack of the Tantive orange items and Greedo subtitles, I still think the JSC source could have been one of the earliest fully assembled positives of the film, predating the element used to make the '77 release prints.

EDIT: I just remembered that the JSC source also had printed-in *negative* splice marks (white lines, mentioned in another thread). Meaning it wasn't COMPLETELY spliced together at the positive level...

DP, delete

There were I think only 50, and from what I understand only a single-digit number of them still exist today. Not sure how few, I think at least three different complete copies are confirmed to have survived? (And Lucasfilm may have one too - the official story is that George Lucas' personal print was an IB and was used as a color reference for the SE, but Mike Verta once told a different story that LFL actually had to *borrow* one of the privately-held IB prints.)

I didn't get that impression. I think he's saying he's grading the whole film to how it was shot, and then will be putting back the Tech timing when he's finished?

From what I recall, the Senator print apparently looked just as green when projected, no? Wasn't timdiggerm at the screening?

Has the Cineavision print ever been scanned?

Actually, that's a separate print chopped up by the same cutter. Notice that your image has a Dolby Digital track between the sprocket holes, and the other ones don't.

Did Technicolor manufacture their own film stock for dye-transfer (IB) printing? I'm looking it up, I can't find any info.

Also, the Eastman edge code info is in white on a gray strip, leading me to believe it's not actually on the print stock itself, but printed in from an earlier negative generation. After all, even IB Technicolor prints were made from Eastman negative. (The square indicates that the film stock comes from 1977 - but if I'm correct and it comes from the negative and not the print itself, who knows when this print came from?)

I was bringing this up in the Legacy thread, but it got kind of off-topic so I'm moving it here.

Has anybody seen a Derann or Cineavision Super 8 print, and can recall if either had the glue at every cut like the JSC, and/or if they are missing the orange marks in the Tantive corridor? I am still interested in determining whether:

1.) all the versions with the early composites have the same cement blobs as the JSC and other video transfers

2.) the presence of the blobs corresponds with the Tantive orange things NOT being there.

As I said, the few bootleg transfers that come from sources with the early composites are vertically cropped so the glue isn't shown. I'm still wondering if the "glue" source was actually a very early element, predating the orange marks being introduced (on an earlier generation?)

OK, we got off track, sorry for that. I'll find other existing threads to continue to ruminate on variations and element survival and the like.

Yes, the original compositing must be preserved. (I do wish there was a good film source of the early version with the different optical composites. I heard someone say the Cineavision 8mm had visible cement splices at every shot change, so maybe it was a reduction off of that element? Doesn't someone here know someone who has a Cineavision print?)

OK, so does this mean the Technidisc/GOUT IP retained its color into the 90s? How does that explain the somewhat desaturated and neutral look of the GOUT?

My original assumption was that either the source element wasn't fully timed, or that it was done in telecine to compensate for fade. The 1983 Spanish-dubbed LPP print and the 1989 French widescreen laserdisc seem to come from a source that had the same variations as the GOUT, and both have certain scenes with pinkish or bluish casts (the French LD is worse, I had assumed it had been due to another 6 years of fading on the source element).

The 70mm cells show the gold cast on Tatooine, the green-blue tinge to the Death Star interiors, and so forth - quite close to the IB Technicolor (including another IB print which made its way into the hands of a British film-cutter, who has been selling it piece by piece on eBay UK). And as I said, the blowup that was chopped up to make the cells was printed on 1995 stock.

So was the GOUT neutralized in telecine even though it came from a fully timed IP? The Technidisc does seem to have more of the original color timing in evidence, but even that isn't perfect. I don't know what to believe anymore...

OK, so the source IP may not have been the "early" one then. Point is, an early-generation element with intact color existed in '95, even if it was unusable for the SE, and would probably be unsuitable for the kind of super-clean restorations we get nowadays.

The irony of all this is that complete versions of the original 1977 film presumably still exist in Lucasfilm's possession. Maybe not ones in good enough quality to intercut with the original negative, but this claim that NO elements exist is BS.

It may be dirty and damaged from years of use, but the early interpositive that was used for the Japanese Special Collection laserdisc and other 80s home video transfers (the one with the big film cement blobs at almost every shot change) must still exist. From what I can tell, it still existed, with virtually intact color, in 1995. I am positing this because the collectible 70mm film cells seem to have come from that source. I finally found one on eBay that is the last frame of a shot, and the seller put in an enlarged scan of it. There is clearly a cement blob there - can someone check it against the JSC?

And there was another one that was on eBay which was a frame that had the edge code:

Plus sign, square, triangle denotes the film stock comes from 1995. I looked up "386", and it identifies the print as being on one of the Kodak EXR x386 safety stocks (some were acetate, some were ESTAR). This confirmed my suspicion (originally due to the lack of sound striping) that the 70mm film cells for the first film (unlike the sound-striped Empire/Jedi cells, which respectively have 1979 and 1982 date codes) were cut from a new blowup created expressly to chop up into cells.

Point is, a circa-1977 IP existed in Lucasfilm or Fox's holdings, with intact color, 20 years ago. If it was stored well enough to retain its color from 1977 to 1995, I'd presume it was put back into storage and probably retained its color as well from 1995 to today...?

Again, no idea if it'd be in good enough condition for an official release (probably not?)

The blue glow was not as thick on the Luke training scenes to begin with. If you look at those Technicolor frames, you'll notice that it definitely has more white core and less blue glow in that scene, vs. the other scenes with the lightsaber. Boosting could well have diminished the blue in that one scene only.

I just don't think the versions seen in the pre-SE home releases were altered to make it white. But I would buy that maybe they did something like that for the SE...

What Technicolor frames on eBay? I'd like to see these.

The white blade was a consequence of contrast/gamma boosting on the video transfers. From what I've seen of theatrical prints, it was light blue in every shot.

I assume the greenish white in the 97SE recomposites was either due to the color correction being botched, or possibly the glow elements having faded and not being able to be fully corrected back to the original color.

The 04SE green blade was just a complete and inexplicable screwup.

That scene could have been "corrected" in the same way as the duel in 2004, but for some reason it was never done. Even in 2011, all they did was fix the green saber.

Is there a 60i preservation of the true NTSC version anywhere, from off-air VHS or that rare Hong Kong laserdisc?

Any chance of Conan coming to Blu-Torrents? I promise to both seed and comment.

dvdmike said:

Yep was on again over Xmas, it's what the cgi truck bit came from 

That version has also aired on USA/SyFy. I think it's the Lowry DVD version before the final digital cleanup. (The big blue line in the dig scenes is still in evidence, while it was digitally removed on the actual DVD.)

I can't remember if we know the story behind the CGI truck shot. Did Lucas commission it, then Spielberg nixed it? Did Spielberg ask for it, then change his mind?