Reading this got me all worked up, I am so worked up right now. I might take down all three of you motherfuckers at once.
Too late, the pube is in the mail.
Harmy said:
Wow, I never said I was gonna do it folks, just that I was considering it. It's just that seeing these 70mm scans I posted above really makes me want it to see it look like that.
@Stinky: Yes, but that is only in the case of the original negative. Every single print derived from the original negative will have its own unique and random grain structure on top of the o-neg grain, and make no mistake, it's own dust and scratches too, so if you had a preservation made from a print or even an IP, it would have extra, totally random grain and some dust and scratches.
But you're not scanning a print, the grain you're proposing would be entirely artificial and further obscure fine detail. You're adding artificial grain over a pre-existing home video release. You won't be recreating a legitimate/original grain structure. The grain would not be totally random originally - it would be part of the film composition itself (along with everything else in the frame.)
Likewise, by adding in dirt/scratches/dust you would not be recreating something genuine, you would be adding in something based solely on your aesthetic preference. Random dirt/scratches/and dust were not part of the original in any sense... they were defects specific to certain prints/reels/and poor projection setups.
I think the fairest compromise would be adding a single pube. I've got one I can contribute, I've had my eye on it for a while.
It is breathtaking.
The fundamental issue, though, is not how aesthetically pleasing Person X finds it, it's the fact that by doing it the project would cease to be a preservation effort and become a complete fan edit.
He would not be restoring or recreating the original grain structure, he would be introducing an artificial effect purely on an aesthetic whim. The issue with wiping grain from film is not only the fact that you remove the visible grain structure (which when present contributes to the film-like projection appearance during playback) but also because you remove fine detail by wiping grain - there's no way around it. The detail that's absent due to DNR is gone forever. By introducing artificial grain he's exacerbating a pre-existing issue... he'll be further obscuring what fine detail remains by adding an additional layer of artificial noise. Not only that, it won't be a representation of the original grain structure, it'll be an arbitrary artificial after-effect.
It's best to work with what original grain structure still exists. Adding artificial grain wouldn't make the presentation more faithful (it would neither be the original grain structure nor would it restore the fine detail caused by scrubbing out some of the original grain,) it would make it worse overall. DNR is an issue with the BD release, but it's not as if the original grain structure has been entirely eliminated (like in the new Predator release for example.)
Adding hairs/dirt/specks of dust/etc. would be insanity. Dirt and hair is not inherent to the composition of film - it's a byproduct of poor projection and dirty reels. Are you trying to recreate the film as it originally existed under ideal conditions or the film as it would've been projected in the worst case scenario in some random shitty cinema? If it's the latter there are a billion different ways it could've appeared. Why not make it purposely out of focus at times? Many theaters had poor focus and even worse projectionists.
Grain is inherent to film but other anomalies specific to certain individual reels and theaters are not.
Also, adding in artificial grain is silly. By removing the original grain a certain amount of fine detail was forever lost, by adding in artificial grain you're further obscuring what fine detail remains. You can never restore the natural grain that was wiped by away DNR, it's best to work with what grain structure remains and not try to make a bad situation worse than it already is. By adding in grain you're making a decision based on how you feel you'd like it to appear, not how you're certain it once appeared given the evidence at hand. You can never restore the original grain structure, you have no idea how it would appear or how finely it would've been resolved had the movie been mastered properly.
Sign me up as one of the people who would prefer a version without all these artificial "enhancements" added into the presentation - if that counts for anything.
Harmy said:
I think though, that if I do it, I will work from the BD source
Yes.
He still didn't answer any of the questions in my post.
_Stinky-Dinkins aka BiffMcBlumpkin occasionally known as Twat Cop or Phil Hergash
[/post]
Jaskoen said:
Are you Dennis Miller?mverta said:
It's a lot of Walter Pecks shouting about the fakery of it all with all the righteous pomp of a Dunning-Kruger test case.
That's Mr. Miller to you.
Asaki said:
I was real confused when Mr. Verta returned and everyone was being civil to him...now it looks like everything is right back to normal.
Stinky-Dinkins said:
Removing said grain inherent to the source is the polar opposite of being faithful to the original presentation.
You missed the part where he said he puts the grain back in when he's done.
That's nice, what he says makes no sense.
He provides absolutely no evidence for any of this. He provides no information whatsoever as to what source(s) he's working with, or from where he's sourcing his comparison screens (and when it is crystal clear it's just a simple color regrading). It's all tiny snips of frames with no time stamps given, all extremely vague. Screens like that Star Wars 4K crawl cap look absolutely bizarre and extremely photoshopped. The shit he releases to tout his progress look more like the Zapruder Film than any legitimate tech showcase.
If his sources were so superior, honestly, do you think he'd suddenly have to go back and redo the entire project at the exact same time the BD is released? Does that not seem like a bizarre coincidence to you? Please. He's doing the same thing Harmy is doing, except this guy isn't releasing his work.
-Mr. Dinkins
bkev said:
Grain is not as inherent to Star Wars as you think Skyjedi. Read through more of the thread. We've always seen transfers from beat-up, poorly mastered editions after all... right?
Grain is inherent to film and everything captured with it, as Star Wars was.
How finely and accurately that grain structure is resolved depends on how it is scanned (the quality of scanning equipment and the resolution it's scanned at,) the material you're sourcing it from (original camera negatives opposed to some other silly shit,) and how it's mastered/encoded/finalized/etc. Removing said grain inherent to the source is the polar opposite of being faithful to the original presentation.
All of the greatest modern film transfers are accurate to their original sources. They replicate (or attempt to) their original grain structures as faithfully as possible. The more DNR a presentation exhibits the more detail is ultimately lost (for those movies originally shot on film), there are no exceptions.
Wait, stop! Nobody move.
A fuse is out.
I had to look it up for myself. He is Mr. Winnie Cooper. This is blowing my fucking mind, seriously.
I take back everything I said. I hope I didn't burn this bridge already but Mike... if you can hook me up with Paul Pfeiffer I'd be hugely grateful. Forget Paul himself, I will settle for Pfeiffer merch. For Paul's actual glasses I would hand you my nuts personally. I will settle for a current picture of Paul's glasses (must be not predate 2010) for much less. I am not shitting.
I am talking hardcore Pfeiffer here man, and I don't fuck around.
none said:
Stinky-Dinkins wrote: These aren't being preserved for posterity,
The future generations who are alive after copyright expires on these films will be able to watch any preservation which exists at that time.
Hahaha, great. Wake me up in 100 years when the copyright expires.
He's not scanning Technicolor prints and he doesn't have access to the original negatives.... let alone the 4K scanner to feed the shit to. He doesn't have the capability to create a "definitive" version. His original Legacy version was already rendered obsolete by the BD release, which is why he's going back to create this second iteration. His newest preservation won't be relevant 10 years from now, let alone 100. Editing software and the hardware that implements it will have so vastly improved several years from now that something someone like Harmy can't dream of doing currently (because of hardware/software constraints) will be way, way easier to accomplish. I have more faith in Lucas releasing a "classic" version before any of this becomes relevant, to be honest.
If he doesn't plan on releasing them why does he never address what exact materials he's sourcing his holy grail of preservations from with anything resembling a shred of specificity? It's to maintain the illusion of unfathomable visual fidelity that none of us peons could ever hope to replicate. It's a fucking big fish story. This thread is seven years old, all it has to show of this project can be fit on floppy disk.
bkev said:
You guys must really hate any museum that doesn't let you touch anything, don't you?
Horrendous analogy. Museums exist solely to preserve great masterpieces and display them in ways that can be enjoyed by any member of the general public. This is why anyone can walk into any of the established museums and enjoy these works as much as they please. They don't restore a historically important work and release a statement to the general public like "Michelangelo's David has been meticulously restored. It is locked in the basement, you cannot see it. Take our word for it, it is breathtaking. There are a couple Polaroid's available for public consumption if you don't believe us. Please buy T Shirts on your way out, the exit is through the gift shop." You don't need to "touch" these kinds of works of art to enjoy them, it's a visual medium, you likewise don't need to touch the original camera negatives of a film to enjoy one that has been meticulously restored for high definition and released on BD.... you simply need to sit down and watch the movie.
His efforts to "preserve" the original film are just as fucking useless for all concerned apart from himself - none of us will ever see them (and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.) These aren't being preserved for posterity, they're being preserved exclusively for his own personal use and enjoyment at best and at worst to sate his ego by establishing his own personal internet mythology when it comes to UOT preservation. That's fine, I have no problem with someone creating a version for their own personal use... but to pretend as though he's doing this community a tremendous service is fucking absurd - he isn't. None of us will be given the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of his labor.... and to use this vaporware to hock his SW-related merch is fucking bullshit. He's not releasing any material to be used by the likes of Harmy, DarkJedi, etc. He releases a tiny amount of screencaps with tweaked color grading every several months and bloviates about how vastly superior his presentation is relative to everything and anything else on offer.
I think he should start selling official Mike Verta pre-worn socks, like how schoolgirls in Japan sometimes sell their used panties. I can imagine Frink balls deep in a pile of those things.
If he's not going to sell any (which I would totally understand) he should at least give us a couple pictures of the ones he's wearing right now. He could at least have the decency to tickle our asses with a feather like he's been doing all along.
Master Sifo-Dyas said:
Awkward.
My favorite part was when he put 100% of the blame for the blinking Ewoks in RotJ on BD on Adywan.
TServo2049 said:
You can join his forum for free, I did. Don't see the issue here...
Probably because it's a blatant attempt to drum up traffic to his site (a site where he makes it clear he has no intention of releasing this preservation yet has no qualms with selling merchandise related to it,) and to shift all discussion about his project under his complete control (where he can remove all critique and censor the discussion if he so chooses.) Imagine if Harmy or DarkJedi never released their projects (just a tiny handful of screenshots every several months) and instead opted to sell T Shirts with OT catchphrases. Hahaha, I mean come the fuck on. Everybody wins!
In keeping with the spirit of this project I think he should make his forum only accessible to himself while occasionally releasing small snippets of random forum posts to the general public.
I just read the last few pages of this thread.
So, this will never be released to the general public?
Honestly, who gives a fuck then?
If this won't be released I can't imagine why anyone (but the creator of this project) would care in the slightest.
I think it'd be better if we donated into a central fund, like a Paypal account controlled by Harmy, that way he could use it to buy whatever hardware he preferred locally. Would be way easier I imagine, and probably cheaper on his end too (rather than having someone else buy it and ship it to him).
dark_jedi said:
I am just sitting here grinning
Winning.
dark_jedi said:
Stinky-Dinkins said:
It has nothing to do with piracy, or donating for a specific project. I'm offering to donate for a new computer. What you do with that computer... wink wink motherfucker.
Some of us will donate money and Dark Jedi will continue to donate transparent jealousy.
Yeah you got me, you are so full of shit, I would like to continue, but you Sir are absolutely not worth it, we know what you are here, it is pretty transparent, you add nothing but stupid crazy comments.
Not jealous, more dumbfounded at this whole situation, $1500.00 for a PC to work with the Blu-rays that he has said more than once he had no interest in using, so yes, it is truly amazing to me, but its all good.
Yahahaha. You're like a parody of an angry internet guy. I don't even know what you're so upset about.
You make it sound like donations are completely unheard of here. I've donated to quite a few projects/causes here (like Laserman, X/0 etc.) because I fully support the work they stand for.
Anytime anyone becomes borderline effusive with compliments about this project you get bizarrely defensive about your own. It's totally fucking odd man.
It has nothing to do with piracy, or donating for a specific project. I'm offering to donate for a new computer. What you do with that computer... wink wink motherfucker.
Some of us will donate money and Dark Jedi will continue to donate transparent jealousy.
Harmy said:
@JBut on the other hand, I'd feel quite bad taking money. I'll have to think about it.
Lots of people would be more than happy to put down a few bucks, given what it would mean in the long run.
It's not like you'd be spending it on whores.
Although that's what I'd do.