Stardust1138

Anakin Starkiller said:

Look, all evidence points to him constantly changing his mind. Yes, he’s said he wanted to do 9 films. There was also a time when he wanted to do 12. In 2005 he’d settled on 6 and hasn’t walked back on it since. Yes, he did propose Sequels to Disney, but only because they were gonna make them anyway.

All creatives and artists change their mind. Why is George so ridiculed for evolving and changing his stance and opinions from time to time about the story he wants to tell? I’ll never understand it.

He quickly trimmed things down from twelve to nine in the 80’s. Then he changed his stance in the late 90’s to early 2000’s from nine to six but whose to say that wasn’t because of the backlash that he was getting?

He also said many times the Sequels he had in mind were never as fleshed out as the Prequels. I think the most likely scenario is he only had notions and a handful of definitive plot points of where he wanted to take things and the development took greater shape in 2011 when he started to get fully creative and exploring what he wanted to tell in his Sequels. He incorporated new ideas and ones he had in the early days and during the making of the Prequels. Afterall in Paul Duncan’s book he talked about how he wanted to explore things with the more metaphysical aspects of the Force in the Prequels but held back due to the backlash he faced from Midi-Chlorians. I also don’t think Steven Spielberg or Rick McCallum would be spitballing if he didn’t have something in mind of where he wanted to take the story. Even Mark Hamill has alluded to this.

He nearly made Episode VII himself before handing it over to Disney. We don’t know rather or not they would’ve ever done a Sequel Trilogy or not. It’s not clear if they would have done it or not. It’s more than likely but we don’t know for absolute sure.

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This movie delves deep into this more than thousand-year-old cultural history in Europe’s East. For the very first time, sensational footage, shot by the world’s best cameramen, presents a bird’s-eye view of the most important and most beautiful buildings of Old Russia.

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

It’s hard to say as Steven Spielberg said in a 90’s BBC special that part of George’s concept for the Prequels was the Sequels. He also slipped up in an interview during the lead up to Attack of the Clones where he mentioned story points in II have to connect with VII.

Sources?

“The challenge for me is telling a six-part story: so in Episode I there are things that I have to get in that refer to Episode VII… no, hang on, we’re not there yet. I mean Episode IV.”

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2002/may/15/news.seanclarke

Correction it was Episode I plot threads in Episode VII. It does show he had a plan of sorts. Nothing fully definitive but I can definitely see plot lines that tie into things he talked about for his Sequels. I think he always had a broad idea of where he wanted to take the story. It’s just the details that needed to be worked out. The Sequels were always less fleshed out then the Prequels.

As far as the Steven Spielberg (Rick McCallum too) bits:

https://youtu.be/jeVNa0cDOSk

3:42 minute mark.

That interview has him going on and on about how much he doesn’t want to make sequels. I think it’s fair to call it just a slip up.

Also worth noting he says stuff that we just know is false, like “[Revenge of the Sith] completes the saga as originally written.”

It’s certainly possible but he also denied the Sequels after the backlash he got for the Prequels. So it’s certainly possible it could’ve been a slip up that went either way as it was around this time he started saying the Sequels won’t happen. Afterall there’s quite a few plot points in The Phantom Menace that connect to his Sequels.

Ane Brun - Closer

https://youtu.be/r-Nv7fHOoJ8

Bridgit Mendler - Forgot to Laugh

https://youtu.be/nH5nkjdpaVo

Anakin Starkiller said:

It’s hard to say as Steven Spielberg said in a 90’s BBC special that part of George’s concept for the Prequels was the Sequels. He also slipped up in an interview during the lead up to Attack of the Clones where he mentioned story points in II have to connect with VII.

Sources?

“The challenge for me is telling a six-part story: so in Episode I there are things that I have to get in that refer to Episode VII… no, hang on, we’re not there yet. I mean Episode IV.”

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2002/may/15/news.seanclarke

Correction it was Episode I plot threads in Episode VII. It does show he had a plan of sorts. Nothing fully definitive but I can definitely see plot lines that tie into things he talked about for his Sequels. I think he always had a broad idea of where he wanted to take the story. It’s just the details that needed to be worked out. The Sequels were always less fleshed out than the Prequels.

As far as the Steven Spielberg (Rick McCallum too) bits:

https://youtu.be/jeVNa0cDOSk

3:42 minute mark.

Anakin Starkiller said:

I know, I’ve heard the story.

I don’t think he was thinking of Sequels at the time.

It’s hard to say as Steven Spielberg said in a 90’s BBC special that part of George’s concept for the Prequels was the Sequels. He also slipped up in an interview during the lead up to Attack of the Clones where he mentioned story points in II have to connect with VII.

I think some of it was left open to the possibility but not too much in case he never did. That’s why things were addressed in Labyrinth of Evil at first and then another time in Darth Plagueis novel. There would be some kind of explanation but not necessarily what he had in mind until he addressed things in Clone Wars with his explanation that would be added to and finally come full circle in his Sequels.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Once you see the resemblance between the names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious, you just can’t unsee them. It was definitely intentional. They were clearly meant to be one and the same at some stage in development.

They were. George made a typo of Sidious as Sido-Dyas. It was originally the name of a “Jedi” they had never heard of. In reality it was an alias. The story evolved and he changed it to a character named Sifo-Dyas and planned to explore his backstory in Revenge of the Sith. He changed his mind. It’s curious because he remarks in the commentary of Attack of the Clones that the Clone Wars is very important to the whole epic of Star Wars. It makes me think he may have saw potential for it as a way to tie into his Sequels if he were to ever make them. Same with Anakin’s origins not getting their original explanation at the hands of Palpatine. The story grew and evolved as he added new pieces to the puzzle.

Cadavra said:

I’m sure making Sifo-Dyas a Sith apprentice was one of George’s ideas at one point, but both the original EU and Clone Wars season 6 (which was technically released under Disney but written with George’s direct involvement) officially established him as a well-intentioned Jedi whose drastic actions were discovered and exploited by Sidious, who eventually ordered Dooku to have him killed.

Definitely an intriguing idea for a fanedit linking the trilogies, though.

I honestly think there was more to the story than just what was established in Clone Wars. I’m reminded of this retrospect. Dave Filoni really implied there was more going on.

https://youtu.be/KGBdRW7jjUk

My theory is Sifo-Dyas and Dooku were both secretly trained by Palpatine at the same time. They were both challenging each other for who would lead the Separatist Movement. However once Sifo-Dyas no longer served a purpose Palpatine had Sifo-Dyas killed as he fulfilled his requirement of ordering the army and the trace of Sith’s involvement was lost due to the illusion it was a Jedi who set things into motion. So sort of what you’re saying but with the added layer of what George talked about.

TestingOutTheTest said:

Stardust1138 said:

Sifo-Dyas was a secret Sith and Palpatine’s apprentice according to George.

Source?

Paul Duncan’s Prequels book.

Sifo-Dyas was a secret Sith and Palpatine’s apprentice according to George. I’m very interested to see how he would’ve brought this idea to life in his Sequels to bring the story full circle further. I like the idea of him and Dooku being used as tools at the same time for the Grand Plan.

screams in the void said:

^ I caught that in reference to Tron Legacy and always wondered about it , but it was the original Tron movie from 1982 where I noticed these things that I mentioned in my last post and how Attack Of The Clones was probably taking inspiration from Tron 82 .Both the original Tron movie and Attack Of The Clones came long before Rinzler’s making of Star Wars books .

My apologies! I only just now caught that you said original Tron. There’s also a Blade Runner spinner in The Phantom Menace after the original Blade Runner used the Falcon as a building design. It’s pretty cool discovering inspirations, easter eggs, and references.

screams in the void said:

I was watching the original Tron movie yesterday and noticed that the solar sail in that movie bears a lot of similarities to Dooku’s Solar Sail in Attack Of The Clones …In Tron , the solar sail also passes by some towers that have a very similar design to structures seen in AOTC on Kamino . The similarities make me think this was intentional inspiration that influenced episode 2 .

I’d say it’s likely since the character Rinzler is named after Jonathan Rinzler who wrote the Making Of books.

“Friends told me about the fact that there’s this character Rinzler in the new Tron movie,” says Rinzler. “So I went online to see if I could figure out where they got the name. But I couldn’t find anything. There aren’t many Rinzlers in the States and it’s not a name that means anything, as far as I know… Then when Joe Kosinski came as a guest speaker I was actually on my way to the event before I realized this might be a chance to ask him. So I waited till after the q-and-a, went down to the front, and said I had a strange question but had to ask where he got the name, or where the writers got the name. And he said that he was sitting with the two writers working, and there was a book on the table ‘a Making of’ he said… ‘Oh yeah, it was Making of Star Wars by someone named Rinzler.’ So I said ‘that’s me’, thanked him, shook his hand and said I had to go out and buy a few action figures — needless to say, my kids are thrilled.”

I finally started watching The Flash tonight. If the first episode is any indication I think I’m going to really enjoy this show. I’m planning to get into Stargirl as well.

Unfortunately I didn’t know about it until it was too late. Sounds like it will live up to the hype and exceed expectations.

I saw there were some old hockey threads on here but they’ve not been updated in over a decade. So I thought I’d start a new one.

Does anyone else on here like hockey?

I feel like I’ve always been interested in getting into hockey ever since I saw The Mighty Ducks movie as a kid but only last year did I start following the NHL extensively with the Maple Leafs. I’m finding it’s really exceeding my expectations with how much fun and action packed it is. I’m really excited to see what the Kraken can do and how long it takes them to find the success the Golden Knights have had.

I never noticed how the V-19 Landspeeder leaves the Battle of Naboo right after firing on the AAT.

LeperMessiah117 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Great choices. I long await your thoughts on Stalker.

Ah yes! That’s right, I was to post my full thoughts on Stalker once I had finished my 2nd viewing! Well, those thoughts will be incoming soon enough. Gonna have a ‘projector room’ screening for this one (as soon as I receive my blu-ray, that is).

Can’t wait!

I found this very interesting too.

A New Hope Novelization:

Kenobi nodded. “I forget sometimes in whose presence I babble. Let us say simply that the force is something a Jedi must deal with. While it has never been properly explained, scientists have theorized it is an energy field generated by living things. Early man suspected its existence, yet remained in ignorance of its potential for millennia.”

“Only certain individuals could recognize the force for what it was. They were mercilessly labeled: charlatans, fakers, mystics, and worse. Even fewer could make use of it. As it was usually beyond their primitive controls, it frequently was too powerful for them. They were misunderstood by their fellows and worse.”

Kenobi made a wide, all-encompassing gesture with both arms. The force surrounds each and every one of us. Some men believe it directs our actions, and not the other way around. Knowledge of the force and how to manipulate it was what gave the Jedi his special power."

The arms came down and Kenobi stared at Luke until the youth began to fidget uncomfortably. When he spoke again it was in a tone so crisp and unaged that Luke jumped in spite of himself. “You must learn the ways of the force also, Luke - if you’re to come with me to Alderaan.”

“No, Luke, your cuts should flow, not be so choppy,” Kenobi instructed gently. “Remember, the force is omnipresent. It envelops you as much as it radiates from you. A Jedi warrior can actually feel the force as a physical thing.” “It is an energy field, then?” Luke enquired. “It is an energy field and something more,” Kenobi went on, almost mystically. “An aura that both controls and obeys. A nothingness that can accomplish miracles.” he looked thoughtful for a moment. “No-one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the Force. Possibly no-one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let’s try again.”

From The Phantom Menace novelization:

“The Jedi Knights were peacemakers; that was the nature of their order and the dictate of their creed. For thousands of years they had served the Republic, a constant source of stability and order in a changing universe. Founded as a theological and philosophical study group so far back that its origins were the stuff of myth, the Jedi had only gradually become aware of the presence of the Force. Years had been spent in its study, in contemplation of its meaning, in mastery of its power. Slowly the order had evolved, abandoning its practice of and belief in a life of isolated meditation in favor of a more outward-looking commitment to social responsibility. Understanding the Force sufficiently to master its power required more than private study. It required service to the greater community and implementation of a system of laws that would guarantee equal justice for all. That battle was not yet won. It probably never would be. But the Jedi Knights would not see it lost for lack of their trying.”

It makes me think that the true nature of what it all means and how it connects together as a whole has been lost. The discovery of what the true nature of the Force really means is what George started to explore with the Force Priestesses and solidified in his Sequels.

A new Dune trailer is here!

https://youtu.be/8g18jFHCLXk

SparkySywer said:

Spirituality, at least what I mean by it and what people mean when they criticize midichlorians for “demystifying the Force”, doesn’t really mean dealing with a higher power. There’s a materialistic explanation for the Force, the source of a Jedi’s power, and Anakin’s conception. Just because you can kind of squint your eyes and use a religious word to describe it (“God”) doesn’t mean that midichlorians aren’t totally material.

Well it’s all subjective as these things often are. It’s a good thing we can’t all see things the same way.

SparkySywer said:

That’s not very spiritual at all. In fact, it’s even worse. Not sure where that quote’s from, but we now have a material explanation for Anakin’s virgin birth.

Nearly everything I’ve shared comes from Paul Duncan’s book where George talks in great detail about these things. I also shared bits of what he said to James Cameron in Story of Science Fiction and the Annotated Screenplays.

I find it very spiritual as the Whills are metaphorically in a sense God and how they commanded the Midi-Chlorians his birth. They took the clay more or less and made Anakin.

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:
made you look

It’s a symbiotic relationship

Sure, I dig that

and very spiritual.

A material explanation for how a Jedi gets their power is the polar opposite of spiritual.

The Midi-Chlorians and Force aren’t the same thing. It’s one of the biggest misconceptions.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Midichlorians-Are-Not-The-Force/id/84084/page/1#1415227

It’s spiritual in how it delves into Anakin’s origins:

“The Midi-Chlorians started the birth process in Anakin’s mother. The Whills communicated the command to the midi-chlorians, which activated the DNA that germinated the egg. That’s why Anakin doesn’t have a father. He was in a bizarre and metaphorical way touched by God, but in this case they happened to be one-celled animals.”

SparkySywer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Quotes from Joseph Campbell:

“Between mythology and biology there is a very close association. I think of mythology as a function of biology; it’s a production of the human imagination, which is moved by the energies of the organs of the body operating against each other. These are the same in human beings all over the world and this is the basis for the archetypology of myth. So, I’ve thought of myself as a kind of marginal scientist studying the phenomenology of the human body, you might say.”

"I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A mythology gives the spiritual import – what one might call rather the psychological, inward import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. There’s no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science. "

“What I’m trying to say is that the structuring of a mythology is conditioned by the science at that time. There’s no use constructing a mythology based on an archaic science. I wouldn’t know what to do with an atom, but I do recognize that when we had a Ptolemaic cosmology there was a whole interpretation of the relationship of the earth to the different planes of the universe that was mythologized. What happened to that was it was given an ethical and moral value, the stages of a ladder of the heavens represented the stages of the psyche.”

None of this has anything to do with Midichlorians

Heck, I’d have loved a straight retcon of Midichlorians as a symptom of larger issues within the Jedi Order. Saying they were a bullshit idea the Order adopted in their decline as a means of selection for child abduction.

This fits in well with one of the themes of ANH of materialism vs spiritualism. It might be an interesting idea if the Jedi’s belief in midichlorians were a signifier of them leaning more toward materialism. If you lean into this enough you could make the case that the Jedi are only Jedi in name. Sure they run around the galaxy with laser swords, and they think they understand the Force (midichlorians), but they don’t have a connection to the spiritual.

The whole point of Midi-Chlorians is their connection to the Force. It’s a symbiotic relationship and very spiritual. The Midi-Chlorians and Force aren’t the same thing. It’s one of the biggest misconceptions.

“There’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force and the conduct is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force.”

“The Whills are a microscopic, single-celled lifeform like amoeba, fungi, and bacteria. There’s something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are Midi-Chlorians, and there’s about 10.000 times more Midi-Chlorians than there are human cells. The only microscopic entities that can go into the human cells are the Midi-Chlorians. They are born in the cells. The Midi-Chlorians provide the energy for human cells to split and create life. The Whills are single-celled animals that feed on the Force. The more of the Force there is, the better off they are. So they have a very intense symbiotic relationship with the Midi-Chlorians and the Midi-Chlorians effectively work for the Whills."

BedeHistory731 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Quotes from Joseph Campbell:

“Between mythology and biology there is a very close association. I think of mythology as a function of biology; it’s a production of the human imagination, which is moved by the energies of the organs of the body operating against each other. These are the same in human beings all over the world and this is the basis for the archetypology of myth. So, I’ve thought of myself as a kind of marginal scientist studying the phenomenology of the human body, you might say.”

"I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A mythology gives the spiritual import – what one might call rather the psychological, inward import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. There’s no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science. "

“What I’m trying to say is that the structuring of a mythology is conditioned by the science at that time. There’s no use constructing a mythology based on an archaic science. I wouldn’t know what to do with an atom, but I do recognize that when we had a Ptolemaic cosmology there was a whole interpretation of the relationship of the earth to the different planes of the universe that was mythologized. What happened to that was it was given an ethical and moral value, the stages of a ladder of the heavens represented the stages of the psyche.”

None of this has anything to do with Midichlorians

Heck, I’d have loved a straight retcon of Midichlorians as a symptom of larger issues within the Jedi Order. Saying they were a bullshit idea the Order adopted in their decline as a means of selection for child abduction.

No thank you. I feel that would truly be a slap in the face to all six of George’s films and The Clone Wars. Star Wars has always been about symbiotic relationships and helping people. It’s just The Phantom Menace made it central to the plot and started to explore it on a deeper more ethereal level.

It’s funny how Mark talked in the 80’s how the Sequels may end on another plane of existence. So it does make me think George always had vague notions of going in this direction.

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I like how the ST we got downplayed the PT (the PT being one okay movie (TPM) and two shit ones (AOTC/ROTS). The PT’s version of the force is too sci-fi for me and the proposed ST seems to double-down on that. I don’t see any Joseph Campbell in “the microbial world.”

Quotes from Joseph Campbell:

“Between mythology and biology there is a very close association. I think of mythology as a function of biology; it’s a production of the human imagination, which is moved by the energies of the organs of the body operating against each other. These are the same in human beings all over the world and this is the basis for the archetypology of myth. So, I’ve thought of myself as a kind of marginal scientist studying the phenomenology of the human body, you might say.”

"I would say that all of our sciences are the material that has to be mythologized. A mythology gives the spiritual import – what one might call rather the psychological, inward import, of the world of nature round about, as understood today. There’s no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science. "

“What I’m trying to say is that the structuring of a mythology is conditioned by the science at that time. There’s no use constructing a mythology based on an archaic science. I wouldn’t know what to do with an atom, but I do recognize that when we had a Ptolemaic cosmology there was a whole interpretation of the relationship of the earth to the different planes of the universe that was mythologized. What happened to that was it was given an ethical and moral value, the stages of a ladder of the heavens represented the stages of the psyche.”

None of this has anything to do with Midichlorians

It does indirectly as it shows he like George saw a connection between mythology and biology as I shared with the link to my other post and how George would’ve created links between the two when exploring the Whills, Force, and Midi-Chlorians.