Star Wars Purist

zombie84 said:

Star Wars Purist said:

zombie84 said:

Last year Lucasfilm shut down a screening at a bar, and it was the SE. They weren't charging admission or anything, but LFL said it was illegal. It's a bit grey but usually not a problem. Pizza shops and bars often have TVs for sports, movies, whatever--a great pizza shop I used to go to had AMC on all the time, so I got to eat really good pizza and watch classic movies. Lucasfilm are really generous sometimes and other times they are complete assholes.

Interesting. In what ways have they been atypically generous? 

The continued existance of the site for one. A lawyer could shut this place down in the matter of a day, and possibly prosecute many of us. It wouldn't be right, but the US justice system is a farce once corporate interests are at stake.

Whenever I read Brian Daley's Han Solo books, The Corporate Sector Authority always makes me think of the possible future of the US.  :( 

zombie84 said:

Last year Lucasfilm shut down a screening at a bar, and it was the SE. They weren't charging admission or anything, but LFL said it was illegal. It's a bit grey but usually not a problem. Pizza shops and bars often have TVs for sports, movies, whatever--a great pizza shop I used to go to had AMC on all the time, so I got to eat really good pizza and watch classic movies. Lucasfilm are really generous sometimes and other times they are complete assholes.

Interesting. In what ways have they been atypically generous? 

Well, personally, I have my thoughts against Lucasfilm having the ability to shut down a harmless showing of the greatest film of all time...but it probably will be of some Special Edition version so...SHUT IT DOWN!! lol

A part of me secretly sees George and his boys leaving the showing alone if its the 2011 Blu Ray version, but suing and shutting down the restaurant down permanently if it was (somehow) the original '77.  I guess I just don't see George as a good person anymore...

Anchorhead said:

Tobar said:

*GASP*

This from the man who hates shrunken universes?

 

Indeed.

In the hands of Zahn, the universe is endless again and the characters are three dimensional.

Which is exactly what's so nice about your site - the vastness of the universe and the depth of the characters.  By the  way, I'm really digging  The Return Of Ben Kenobi.  Great story.

How could you NOT enjoy The Return of Ben Kenobi or any other Archie Goodwin daily comic story for that matter?!? :) 

Anyway...

I always thought the Clones of the Clone Wars should have been like Kahn and his fellow Augments from "Space Seed"...

...But that's just me! 

Furthermore... Old Klingons v. New, Kirk v. Picard, TOS v. TNG....

lol 

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

CWBorne said:

Trying to figure out a bit of an issue as part of me really wants the Imperial armed forces to have existed for some time, but I don't want the Clone Wars to involve Republic vs. Empire in any way. I guess part of me's wondering if the Imperial aspect existing as part of the Republic but not really overtaking everything till Palpatine's later days could work. 

I think it could work. I'm going in that direction myself, with the Republic reforming into a far more militant Empire mid-way through the Clone Wars but not really becoming a fully despotic entity until Palpatine's rise to power decades later.

 

In my tentative Prequel Trilogy, Episode II ends with the creation of the "Imperial Fleet" and the "de facto" formation of the Galactic Empire.  In Episode III, the Empire shows its true color and becomes the evil totalitarian, dark side-ruled galactic power we all love to hate! 

Interesting.  Very different from the original trilogy films, but still interesting.  I like how people here are daring enough to have their own tales/views about Star Wars.  I have a totally different take on the Prequels which I hold pretty near and dear to my fanboy heart.  I feel people have every right to do the same with the "Sequels" (unmade or not).  Personally, I like to think of the Thrawn Trilogy as the first Sequel Trilogy, Dark Empire as an "optional" second, and something that hasn't quite been officially written yet as the third (i.e. generally what you're writing about and what Lucas's original ST idea was: A story following an aged Luke Skywalker now a Jedi "master" in the vein of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi "passing on the torch" to a few star pupils, presumably the children of Solo and Organa.  

Personally, I think I would have Luke being much more wise and Kenobi-like than any EU work has depicted thus far, trying to combat the seductive nature of the Dark Side creeping over to his pupils and dealing with a Galaxy now seeing little need for Jedi (even moreso than before).  

Star Trek never went into unadulterated, infant-focused products such as Episode I, II, and The Clone Wars.  Yeah, there was TAS which was a Saturday morning cartoon, and the boring Motion Picture and elements of TNG and its successors that were also a bit boorish, and the new reboot was crap...but Trek has never had a "Jar-Jar" moment.  In that sense, the franchise is "better".  

However, as is acknowledged here, there really is NO COMPARISON of the franchises beyond their similar sounding "Star" titles, space-themed settings, and use of spaceships and high technology. etc.  Star Wars is "Space-Fantasy" and Star Trek is Science-Fiction, yet both are, in their own ways, equally enjoyable and similarly faltering.  

Personally, I think the Trek franchise is, in total, better, but nothing is as enjoyable, "fun", and influential (to my own daily life) as "Old" Star Wars. 

A more interesting question to me is what the prequel actors thought of the prequels.  I highly doubt that Hayden Christensen gives a s$*t about them, and Natalie Portman is in no way, shape, or form a fan of the series.  In fact, she never saw the originals before her performance in Episode I and I personally doubt that she ever took the time to watch them (*cough* stuck up "Indie" starlet *cough*).  It's well known Liam Neeson considers Qui-Gon to be one of his weakest roles, and Jake Lloyd definitely suffered years of torment, abuse (and reportedly small royalties) from being little boy Anakin. 

Even MORE interesting is what the OT actors who also were in the PT thought of the Prequels. As Evan1975 already showed with Anthony Daniels, even he, a constant of the entire "saga", has negative words against the PT, which I personally found shocking!  I feel that Ian McDiarmid mostly enjoyed his greater (and arguably more "serious") role in the PT than his one film appearance in "Jedi".  Deep down, I reckon that Frank Oz probably didn't enjoy the PT as much, since he lost the physical acting aspect with the move from the puppet Yoda to his CGI "successor" after TPM (and now the Yoda puppet in I has been erased in the vein of Sebastian Shaw's Old Anakin and Clive Revil's Original Emperor!).  

DuracellEnergizer said:

 

Star Wars Purist said:

Anyway, do you guys take the "I took you to live with my brother, Owen" quote from Ben (from the ROTJ novelization) into account for your Prequels?

Yes, to an extent.

In my personal canon (as of this moment, anyway), Obi-Wan is Owen's half-brother, the result of a drunken one night stand their father Cliegg had with a space addict named Aika. When Cliegg refused to help Aika raise Obi-Wan, she placed him in the care of a Jedi Knight visiting Tatooine, so the two never grew up together or even knew of each others' existence. The truth is only uncovered later, when Cliegg tells Owen of the illicit tryst and the illegitimate child while on his deathbed; presumably, Owen later reveals this information to Obi-Wan, as he comes to know the truth as well.

I don't think I'll be relating any of this when/if I get around to writing my new PT out, though; it's all just backstory.

 

I see.  I guess there's something to say for a Kenobi with "mysterious" origins. 

TV's Frink said:

It did...Starship Titanic.

LOL! 

DuracellEnergizer said:

You could go with another Jorus clone.

Yes...yes...It can be done!  

I could re-work it so that the clone ends up as the first major "dangerous" clone...but they don't realize this at first, instead believing that Jorus hadn't died and had somehow survived and returned from the Outbound Flight catastrophe.

Anyway, do you guys take the "I took you to live with my brother, Owen" quote from Ben (from the ROTJ novelization) into account for your Prequels? 

My idea is that Beru is Anakin's sister/Luke's biological aunt (nee Skywalker) and that Owen is simply a non-Skywalker related husband/boyfriend of hers, who happens to be Obi-Wan's brother as well (which everyone finds out about late in the first prequel and which bonds Kenobi and Skywalker closely).  

McFlabbergasty said:

Episode VII: Revenge of the Jedi, 20 ABY

Episode VIII: The Forbidden Sanctum, 25 ABY

Episode IX: Legacy of the Force, 27 ABY

 

 

I like the titles.  It's nice to see "Revenge of the Jedi" coming back! 

xhonzi said:

I thought Jorus would be a good guy, to make it even more surprising when Joruus turns out to be a total loon.

I see what you mean.  I kind of imagined the Joruus clone to simply be close to Jorus but over-accentuated (i.e. the original Jorus had an overbearing, domineering nature that eventually got the best of him, whereas the Joruus clone was a shameless megalomaniac who loved to rule individuals personally).  I wanted Jorus to be a great Jedi Knight (if not "Master" like his clone claims he is) who simply found too much power and unwittingly stumbled upon the Dark Side, yet didn't become a "Sith" or even an official Dark Jedi, more like a rogue.  

I guess I just liked the character too much! But I forgot his origin story...even though I read all of Outbound Flight! (rolling eyes at myself).  

I wanted so badly to have Jorus C'Baoth to be the big villain in the PT, besides The Emperor and eventually Anakin, but then I remembered how he died in the Outbound Flight program before The Clone Wars.  I'm still trying to fit him in Episode I somehow, but I don't see how it'll work.  

Any thoughts on this to help me? 

I definitely want an Anakin who starts about Luke's age in Episode I and ends up middle-aged by III.  Furthermore, I want to try and effect an older Empire.  Obi-Wan definitely will be old enough so that he ends up in his late 70s or early 80s by the time of the original Star Wars film.  

I agree that Star Wars has always been merchandised to death and was a "sell-out" from "year one" of the franchise.  However, is that not "American"? Wouldn't America's biggest modern myth be merchandised and sold like crazy?  As nutty as it sounds, I believe this element to Star Wars makes it even more of a quintessential element to America's cultural and "mythological" (if I may use the word) heritage...we are a bombastically consumerist culture after all, are we not?

Yes, The Holiday Special and much of the marketing-related products from Star Wars are just outright terrible.  However, Lucas pretty much denounced the Holiday Special nearly the second after he saw the finished product (if I remember correctly) and it was never ever aired again (officially) besides it's original TV broadcast in 1978.  Yes, it's a huge black-hole in the franchise, perhaps worse than anything Star Wars that has come since (besides Boba's introduction), but it was only on for one-day. 

The Prequels and The new Clone Wars show have been on...repeatedly and are very much a part of Lucas's canon.  They are not going away anytime soon...

Star Wars will always be merchandised to death as long as the franchise is alive.  I just hope the action figures, oven mitts, dolls, replicas, and undergarments represent characters, vehicles, planets, and settings of quality television shows/films/books/comics!  

To clarify, Star Wars isn't art.  I don't consider it that way in the least.  But it is a definitive film series to this nation's cultural history, and, as I see it, our modern myth.  I would rather it not continue to degrade (as I believe it is).  

I greatly appreciate the added history about how Star Wars wasn't always "perfect" or utopian even in the beginning.  It's vital any fan of the franchise know of the "early bird box", The Star Wars Holiday Special, the campy cast interviews and specials, and of course, the excessive merchandising and tie-ins.

darth_ender said:

What do I like about the EU?  I like that the EU has really tried to pull Europe together to avoid the nationalistic strife that has plagued them with war for centuries.  Unfortunately they are having monetary difficulties that seem to be dragging down the world economy, but their intentions were in the right....oh, wait....wrong room!

lol. I always thought both EUs had the same "good intentions"/positive elements to mixed results factor.  The European Union gets a huge A+ for banding together the previously nearly-perpetually war-torn Europe and attempting to effect continental peace and economic unity.  The Expanded Universe gets a huge A+ for adding extra stories to an amazing film trilogy for obsessive and Star Wars hungry super-fans like us.  However, the European Union has had terrible ramifications on the global economy and have failed to completely fiscally unite the region (UK not adopting the Euro; the relative "failure" of the currency itself), and the Expanded Universe has had a plethora of total duds and misfires which take the series in a totally strange if not undesirable direction...and prequelization has plagued it as of late. 

Anyway...I really want to read the Lando books.  Can never find them (not even in used "thrift" book stores). 

There was a luxury space vessel in the "Silent Drifting" issue of Marvel Star Stars (the famous, or should-be-famous, issue which showed a young Obi-Wan Kenobi even before ESB was released).  Did it have a name though?  If it did you could use that name....

...Or should I say when Lucas got "re-involved" with Star Wars in the late 90s.  His initial ideas on those subjects in the 70s-80s were pretty great, IMO. Such as his films from that time period! 

DuracellEnergizer said:

Yeah, but retconning in the EU has gotten so far out of hand that it's become a massive coronary of a joke.

Take the post-ROTJ Marvel comics for example. Those stories outright declare that the Empire swiftly collapsed following the Battle of Endor, leaving only a few remnants here and there. But, more-or-less beginning with the Thrawn trilogy, the later EU in the 90s depicted an Empire that stayed strong following the Battle of Endor, only collapsing several more years of conflict with the Rebels. These two takes on the post-ROTJ Empire don't mesh at all, but that hasn't stopped the losers who run the EU from shoving round pegs into square holes and declaring it all as "canon".

I haven't read the Marvel series up to the post-ROTJ era, but doesn't that fit with The Thrawn Trilogy, which shows only a few Imperial "remnants here and there", one of which really only shows itself once Thrawn and his great scheme comes into play? I will agree that the Post-Thrawn books such as "Truce at Bakura" and so forth show a very much alive Empire.  Personally, I definitely liked Zahn's vision the best, where the Empire was markedly wounded and limited, yet still present.  The post-ROTJ Marvel series seems unrealistic (even for a Marvel series fan such as myself) and a lot of those post-Thrawn '90s books make it seem as though ROTJ never happened! 

As for all the ret-cons?  Yes.  They're terrible.  I don't mind ones such as the "Tan" one, since an original trilogy film overrides it.  Now when the Prequels and Prequel-related works ret-con things...then I get a little pissed, as I know you yourself did.  We both remember how cool The Clone Wars and Darth Vader & Boba Fett's origins were before Lucas got involved...

xhonzi said:

 

Star Wars Purist said:

The "Tan" name has been ret-conned as an honorific title given to great pilots by the society where the supercomputer is from that says this name. 

*eyeroll*

 

haha!  Star Wars is no stranger to ret-cons.  It all started with Darth Vader's most famous line of dialogue! 

xhonzi said:

Tom Veitch referred to "Prison Ships used to Transport Jedi during the Clone Wars" early in Dark Empire.  It boggles my mind what he might have been thinking when he wrote that.

Zahn wrote that the Dark Side cave on Dagobah was so since several Dark Jedi from Bpfassh (sp?) died/were destroyed there.  Kind of an interesting thought.

Of course the spaarti cylinders are an interesting item.  The whole bit about how it took a year to grow a full blown clone and the issue with the force driving them mad...

I get the impression from Zahn that cloning Jedi was definitely a big goal during the Clone Wars, but was darn near impossible.

I think Luke&Leia's mom gets a name in one of the books.

I think Luke's dad was called "Tam Skywalker" in one of the early Marvel comics.  But he was called Anakin before the OT was over (at least according to Kenner), so you can probably safely throw that out.

The Archie Goodwin Star Wars daily comic strips referred, once, to Luke's father as a "Tan Skywalker". I'm assuming this would be pronounced like Han but with the T. However, as we all know, Vader/Luke's dad is called and referenced as Anakin Skywalker several times (by Luke and Obi-Wan). 

The "Tan" name has been ret-conned as an honorific title given to great pilots by the society where the supercomputer is from that says this name. 

kamalayka said:

I'm only 23, and I've only been a Star Wars fan since around '97 or so, but even when I saw Ep. 1 I was disappointed.

The ending of Episode 3 was epic, though. For the first time, there was a sense of internal cosmetic consistency between the a prequel and the originals. (The computers were "old-fashioned" looking, with all the bells and whistles! Why Mr. Lucas. . . why couldn't that have been the look for the entirety of the prequel trilogy???)

 

http://youtu.be/c6bEs3dxjPg?t=3m48s

Mr. Lucas isn't a fan of Star Wars.  Plain and Simple.  Of course he likes his own creation and work, if not loves it.  But he can never sit down and watch Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi and sit and be "wowed" and entertained in the scope of the story.  For Lucas, I'm sure he watches the films and thinks "The team had a lot of difficulties getting this frame right...oh that landspeeder really didn't come out well...oh, why did I make a film this violent?" and so on and so forth.  He slavishly labored on Star Wars as a director, and even nearly had a heart attack with all of his pressure and hard work.  He doesn't have memories of seeing Star Wars for the first time in 1977 like some of these "original" SW fans have, or seeing it later on VHS or DVD as a kid (like me).  He remembers, dealing with actors who didn't get his creation, great budgetary constraints, production difficulties, and huge limitations in time, effects, and so much else.  

This explains a good deal of the alterations he has made from '97 onwards.  I can personally see him having re-done the Death Star sequence and Luke's landspeeder and the X-Wings in the background of the lone watchman on Yavin IV.  However, even these were unnecessary and didn't flow well with the film.  As for changes like the horrendous digital Jabba, "Han Shoots Second" (ugh), and all the Mos Eisley CGI and ridiculous over-expansion went completely against the scope of the film and destroyed much of its integrity. Replacing actors (Clive Revill and Sebastian Shaw) and so forth in the sequels (and much of the terrible ROTJ changes) don't make much sense and show that he may have had a personal resentment over much about his films and a possible (no longer) not-so-secret distaste for his initial fan base (the "original" fans who there from the beginning).  

Later on when making the Prequels, he abandoned all of his old methods and "tactics" and was self-admittedly all about crafting a totally new Star Wars for a totally new generation.  Did he really attempt to make Episode I for the fans who watched Star Wars in the May of 1977?  Or even us "prequel generation" kids who had already seen the O-OT a million times over already?  No!  We both knew that movie was an ugly duckling in a wider franchise when we first saw it.  We may have initially liked it, or later tried to accept it, and then completely discarded it (I did...I can't believe I found it better as an early teen than when it later came out...ugh...I was a "G-Canon" slave...).  

ROTS came close to looking like...how Star Wars should look.  But besides a few scenes and all (or parts thereof) it too didn't fit well, and ROTJ had to have the beloved Old Anakin replaced by the new to fit it in...

George Lucas, in the past two decades, has proven himself to be a near-tasteless fool.  I still sit back and try to reconcile the "Young George" and "Old George" as the single person "they" are, but it's just too difficult.  Someone who directed what is, in my opinion, the best film ever made, along with writing it along with its two great sequels....and then how he could trash them and make mediocre prequels...it's just all beyond me.  The Prequels should have been the cinematic highlights of the "Turn of the Century"/Early 2000s. It shouldn't have been Lord of the Rings that was the trilogy of that era, but the second set of Star Wars movies...No one expected such poor quality (except for SW haters to begin with...but he just dropped the ball).

And now we all have to live with the mistake(s) and are being forced to accept them as being equal to or greater than the Star Wars Trilogy.  

And I say...

NO 

How/Where do I download the Puggo Grande?  

DuracellEnergizer said:

Restore the OOT and make the EU more like it was pre-AOTC, and I'll be happy.

Couldn't agree more! Phantom Menace didn't really change the EU too much for the worse. How about prequel reboots? With minimal to no CGI and near-perfect accordance with the OT? And, of course, Star Wars OOT on Blu-Ray in 35/70 mm versions/mono/stereo/and 7.1 options...AND versions with the deleted scenes inserted? How about that?